Who was the biggest omission from the Four Nations Cup rosters?

[Regal]

I see the point you are tryin to make. It revolves around removing a certain players best stretch in a sample, and then comparing it against all players complete sample. It is a fundamentally dishonest way to compare players production.

Including outliers is also fundamentally flawed, as is using data from seasons that don’t reflect how good players are today. Both of which you did in your post. None of the other players have a goal season outlier like Hyman in the data. I was showing how much of an effect the outlier has. And even if we use Hyman’s numbers from 22-23 to today, he still falls behind the top 8 in points per 82 and the rest of the post applies.

 

[10YearsHaveGotBehind]

Including outliers is also fundamentally flawed, as is using data from seasons that don’t reflect how good players are today. Both of which you did in your post. None of the other players have a goal season outlier like Hyman in the data. I was showing how much of an effect the outlier has. And even if we use Hyman’s numbers from 22-23 to today, he still falls behind the top 8 in points per 82 and the rest of the post applies.

No, deciding based on your own bias what seasons to include for what players is flawed. You have chosen to remove a single players best season, and to compare that against the complete seasons of all other players. Especially when for the player you are "picking and choosing" you place weight on the last 26 games, ignore the last 27-106 games, and then include the last 106 to 185 games. Also no mention of postseason play from you either. That is a hugely flawed methodology.

 

[Regal]

No, deciding based on your own bias what seasons to include for what players is flawed. You have chosen to remove a single players best season, and to compare that against the complete seasons of all other players. Especially when for the player you are "picking and choosing" you place weight on the last 26 games, ignore the last 27-106 games, and then include the last 106 to 185 games. Also no mention of postseason play from you either. That is a hugely flawed methodology.

It’s not a methodology but ok. I’m not going to bother with you if you can’t see how removing an outlier might give some insight. It doesn’t mean I’m using it as the only deciding factor

 

[10YearsHaveGotBehind]

It’s not a methodology but ok. I’m not going to bother with you if you can’t see how removing an outlier might give some insight. It doesn’t mean it’s the only deciding factor you daft panda

Using your methodology with Sam Reinhart is a 39-45-84 player. Guess he's borderline for Canada too.

Remove outliers sure, but do it for all in the sample. Otherwise you are just introducing a bias.

 

[Beerz]

Real happy that Tage was left off the roster, seems like a terrible person.

Tage is a choir boy

 

[Regal]

Using your methodology with Sam Reinhart is a 36-41-77 player. Guess he's borderline for Canada too.

Reinhart was absolutely borderline going into the year because his season was a huge outlier (and this is my bad because I forgot to mention Reinhart’s outlier). Fewer people would have had him on the team going into last year than Hyman, and if he was considered a consistent 50 goal player, he would have been selected initially instead of Marchand. The fact that he’s continued his production is a big reason he was taken.

Hyman’s slow start hurt his case, and if he was continuing his production from last year like Reinhart has done he almost certainly would have been taken. So in some ways I agree with you that Hyman lost his spot due to this season. Where I disagree was that Hyman was an obvious pick that only lost his spot due to a bad month. This isn’t like if Marner had a slow start after being a 100 point pace player for years. Hyman was a borderline player who needed to show his year wasn’t an outlier to be a lock and he didn’t. He still would have been a fine pick, but it’s not egregious if he’s only going to be the player he’s been outside of last year.

The difference with Reinhart as well is that he’s also an elite defensive player, and he’s been even better than Hyman at Hyman’s PP role, which reduces one of Hyman’s reasons for being there. If Reinhart wasn’t the obvious net front on PP1, Hyman probably would have been taken in part to play that role.

 

[10YearsHaveGotBehind]

Hyman’s slow start hurt his case, and if he was continuing his production from last year like Reinhart has done he almost certainly would have been taken. So in some ways I agree with you that Hyman lost his spot due to this season. Where I disagree was that Hyman was an obvious pick that only lost his spot due to a bad month. This isn’t like if Marner had a slow start after being a 100 point pace player for years. Hyman was a borderline player who needed to show his year wasn’t an outlier to be a lock and he didn’t. He still would have been a fine pick, but it’s not egregious if he’s only going to be the player he’s been outside of last year.

The difference with Reinhart as well is that he’s also an elite defensive player, and he’s been even better than Hyman at Hyman’s PP role, which reduces one of Hyman’s reasons for being there. If Reinhart wasn’t the obvious net front on PP1, Hyman probably would have been taken in part to play that role.

I can see your point from these two paragraphs. I disagree strongly with it but it at least makes sense.

What I take issue with is deciding which seasons to compare between a player and a sample of players:

To compare 1 players current 26 game season, and their seasons from 3&4 years ago to a sample of players last 3 seasons in just not apples to apples.

And again the team decided that its best player doesn't need his most regular linemate for a short tournament due to a slow month. Its just a dumb decision.

My guess is that by February team Canada will realize they have made a mistake, and find a way to have Hyman on the team.

 

[Hallonbroder]

Tage is a choir boy

Sure he is….

 

[Beerz]

Sure he is….

Dot dot dot...

 

[Regal]

I can see your point from these two paragraphs. I disagree strongly with it but it at least makes sense.

What I take issue with is deciding which seasons to compare between a player and a sample of players:

To compare 1 players current 26 game season, and their seasons from 3&4 years ago to a sample of players last 3 seasons in just not apples to apples.

And again the team decided that its best player doesn't need his most regular linemate for a short tournament due to a slow month. Its just a dumb decision.

My guess is that by February team Canada will realize they have made a mistake, and find a way to have Hyman on the team.

I agree it’s not apples to apples but I don’t believe determining the best players today can ever truly be an apples to apples comparison because we need to find some balance between variance in smaller samples and players actually improving or regressing, as well as both positive and negative outlier years. I didn’t intend the numbers to be the only factor to consider, but I was trying to show how the extended timeline you used for Hyman in Edmonton and missed games can make the numbers look better for Hyman relative to other players, particularly ones like Konecny and Hagel, who made jumps in 22-23, and Stone who has missed time. And even in my data, Jarvis gets underrated because he made the jump last year and has been a 30+ goal scorer since then.

I can see your point that Hyman should have probably been taken for chemistry in a short tournament, even if it doesn’t end up working out, but it’s possible they also load the top lines and that chemistry becomes moot. I also imagine he picks it up again and he’ll probably end up with 35-40 goals on the year. I just don’t think he’s so much better than the other names taken that he’s a huge miss here.

 

[Jack Spider]

I'd have Bedard on team Canada. I think the kid still believes he can be the best in the world and I don't know how serious the veterans will take this tournament. I know he's not the most complete player but he's better offensively than some guys and he did well for Canada in the past.

 

[GreeningOil]

Hyman literally scored 70 goals in the regular season + playoffs last year.

Him being left off is bizarre.

 

[Xspyrit]

Schiefele has 110 points in his last 108 games and 38 in 34 games this year. The point is that while Cirelli is having a good year, Scheifele has been doing it for a long time. It's not some hot streak.


Both good players Neither of them belongs near team Canada.

Scheifele is far from my favorite player.

Ok we understand your argument, it's points and nothing else... not really complicated. Scheifele has some of the worst defensive metrics among forwards for years. You can be sure that they looked hard at advanced stats to make their roster. It's going to be hard to beat USA so they're trying to win here, not to build the most "all-stars lineup"

 

[cneely]

Ok we understand your argument, it's points and nothing else... not really complicated. Scheifele has some of the worst defensive metrics among forwards for years. You can be sure that they looked hard at advanced stats to make their roster. It's going to be hard to beat USA so they're trying to win here, not to build the most "all-stars lineup"

Scheifele is consistently asked to put up points for the Jets and he has generally succeeded. He hasn't asked to be a defensive forward. You seem to be of the opinion that if a player with skills - skating, vision, IQ, size - were asked to take on a different role, he would be unable. I think that's a short sighted opinion.

You take the better player. 100% of the time.

 

[NyQuil]

This only matters to people who build a team in a NHL video game. His defensive liability’s would get heavily exposed

Meh, the four nations might as well be a video game.

 

[Fantast100]

Got snubbed the hardest means what?

 

[Three On Zero]

Meh, the four nations might as well be a video game.

True

 

[Xspyrit]

Scheifele is consistently asked to put up points for the Jets and he has generally succeeded. He hasn't asked to be a defensive forward. You seem to be of the opinion that if a player with skills - skating, vision, IQ, size - were asked to take on a different role, he would be unable. I think that's a short sighted opinion.

You take the better player. 100% of the time.

Now you're putting words in my mouth, I think Scheifele could be more responsible defensively but he'd have to sacrifice a lot of offense. He used to be one of my favorite non-Sens players but now not so much. He's really good offensively but we're talking about a best on best tournament, nothing shameful about being the 4th or 5th best C in Canada (let's not forget that MacKinnon will play wing)

It was basically any Center left off the team vs McDavid, Crosby and Point and I think these 3 guys are clearly better. Cirelli is the 4th line shutdown Center, who is also much better in that role than Scheifele would be

You understand the role concept, do you?

IMO Scheifele could have been selected instead of Marchand, Jarvis or Bennett, so in a Winger role. I don't remember him playing wing in the NHL, is he good at W?

 

[Jetcetera]

The guy on pace for a 50-50 season

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

No Bedard is a huge mistake. A total slap in the face of the generational kid.