Speculation: Who signs first and for how much? Q. Hughes, B. Tkachuk, Pettersson, Kaprizov, Dahlin

First deal to get done?


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LOFIN

Registered User
Sep 16, 2011
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Wait, what? Is he actually not vaccinated yet?
Would have to imagine he already got vaccinated during last season. Remember now, pretty much every team based in US got the opportunity to get vaccinated during the season, I think both shots as well (and some teams did the J&J which is just one shot).
 

LOFIN

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Sep 16, 2011
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Why would Petterson sign that? All he has to is wait until they sign Hughes at which point he can get fair market value from another team.
Just because he can sign an offer sheet to squeeze Vancouver doesn't mean he will.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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Can one of your explain your Hughes signing = Pettersson offer sheet theory?

Is your premise that a team has given him an offer sheet and Pettersson just won't sign it until Hughes signs?

Or do you think that a team has an offer sheet prepared and they're not giving it until Hughes signs?

Either one seems improbable. If I'm prepared to offer sheet Pettersson why would I wait for 3 unpredictable events:
1) will Hughes sign?
2) will Pettersson agree to my offer sheet?
3) will Vancouver match my offer sheet?

If I'm Pettersson and I'm willing to sign the offer sheet, why do I wait for Hughes to sign?
Either the offer sheet is good enough and I'm happy for either team to sign it, or its not and I'm not signing it.
 
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LOFIN

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Sep 16, 2011
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Can one of your explain your Hughes signing = Pettersson offer sheet theory?

Is your premise that a team has given him an offer sheet and Pettersson just won't sign it until Hughes signs?

Or do you think that a team has an offer sheet prepared and they're not giving it until Hughes signs?

Either one seems improbable. If I'm prepared to offer sheet Pettersson why would I wait for 3 unpredictable events:
1) will Hughes sign?
2) will Pettersson agree to my offer sheet?
3) will Vancouver match my offer sheet?

If I'm Pettersson and I'm willing to sign the offer sheet, why do I wait for Hughes to sign?
Either the offer sheet is good enough and I'm happy for either team to sign it, or its not and I'm not signing it.
Because obviously a team would want to see the Hughes first in order to make their offer sheet optimal for making it optimal.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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Can one of your explain your Hughes signing = Pettersson offer sheet theory?

Is your premise that a team has given him an offer sheet and Pettersson just won't sign it until Hughes signs?

Or do you think that a team has an offer sheet prepared and they're not giving it until Hughes signs?

Either one seems improbable. If I'm prepared to offer sheet Pettersson why would I wait for 3 unpredictable events:
1) will Hughes sign?
2) will Pettersson agree to my offer sheet?
3) will Vancouver match my offer sheet?

If I'm Pettersson and I'm willing to sign the offer sheet, why do I wait for Hughes to sign?
Either the offer sheet is good enough and I'm happy for either team to sign it, or its not and I'm not signing it.
Hughes signs, and there is limited cap left for Pettersson. Canucks will need to trade away roster players to match any offer over 10.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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Because obviously a team would want to see the Hughes first in order to make their offer sheet optimal for making it optimal.

So is your assumption then that if someone makes an offer now there's a chance that Benning just forgets that Hughes exists? Or you think it's a given that if Pettersson signs the offer sheet Benning will just do nothing to ever make an offer to RFA Hughes?

Both GMs are aware Hughes is there. There is insufficient pay off for the other GM to risk waiting for Hughes to sign.

Waiting for Hughes to sign could also blow back on another GM because if he signs for less than expected, there is more room to match Pettersson. Benning would be more likely to keep a buffer over what he hopes to sign Hughes for to be safe.

Regardless you guys are galaxy braining this. No GM is sitting there with a concrete plan to offer millions of dollars and several picks, but they're just waiting for some 3rd party RFA to sign a contract.

They're shooting their shot or they're not. Pettersson is then signing or not.
 

tyhee

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Feb 5, 2015
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So is your assumption then that if someone makes an offer now there's a chance that Benning just forgets that Hughes exists? Or you think it's a given that if Pettersson signs the offer sheet Benning will just do nothing to ever make an offer to RFA Hughes?

Both GMs are aware Hughes is there. There is insufficient pay off for the other GM to risk waiting for Hughes to sign.

Waiting for Hughes to sign could also blow back on another GM because if he signs for less than expected, there is more room to match Pettersson. Benning would be more likely to keep a buffer over what he hopes to sign Hughes for to be safe.

Regardless you guys are galaxy braining this. No GM is sitting there with a concrete plan to offer millions of dollars and several picks, but they're just waiting for some 3rd party RFA to sign a contract.

They're shooting their shot or they're not. Pettersson is then signing or not.

I think the possibility of an offer sheet is something the Canucks have to regain some flexibility to guard against, even though right now nobody is likely planning an offer sheet. The problem comes if the Canucks lose the ability to match if they sign Hughes first.

Right now the Canucks are looking at the possibility of signing Hughes long term and Pettersson to a bridge.

Above we saw @Favin predict an $8.35 million cap hit for Hughes. Let's go with that as an example for now.

I have a spread sheet with the Canucks roster and cap hits. It involves a few assumptions about who makes the team, but realistically there isn't a lot of room to change it as the players on the bubble aren't paid all that differently. The biggest opportunity to play with it would be to keep a roster of fewer than 23 players.

My spreadsheet has the Canucks $16.789 million * under the salary cap. That would leave them $16.789 million for Hughes, Pettersson and whatever extra they need through the year to deal with short term absences due to injuries and illnesses that they don't get long term injury relief for, as well as the occasional absence on compassionate grounds.

Let's assume the Canucks announce tomorrow that they have signed Hughes to a deal at the amount @Favin hypothesized. That would leave the Canucks with just under $8.44 million for Pettersson and whatever margin they need for short term absences.

At that stage, knowing the Canucks are not in a position to match, a team with cap room might very well decide to offer Pettersson a deal at $9 or $10 million, with the Canucks unable to match. The Canucks would have just under a week to find some way to very quickly dump salary.

Normally a team could clear enough space by trading a lower paid player at a discount.

The Canucks have a lot of players who are paid more than their market value. At the beginning of the season, it might be tough to give them away without throwing in as a sweetener significant additional value. It also would be difficult to do without Benning openly doing something he's claimed he would not do, give away assets in order to dump payroll.

The point is, cap flexibility does matter. Signing Hughes to a long term deal before signing EP would take away much of the little cap flexibility Benning has left.

* Assumed roster of (F) Boeser, Horvat, Miller, Garland, Pearson, Dickinson, Motte, Sutter, Podkolzin, Hoglander, MacEwen, Highmore, (D) OEL, Myers, Hamonic, Poolman, Rathbone, Schenn, Juolevi, (G) Demko, Halak, with Hughes and Pettersson to come. For discussion purposes Ferland has been disregarded, though the need to get as close to the cap as possible with him on the roster before putting him on injured reserve the first day of the season so as to maximize long term injury relief puts additional pressure on Benning to get his free agents signed before the season starts. Without Pettersson and Hughes, the Canucks aren't going very close to the $81.5 million salary cap even including Ferland.
 
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Three On Zero

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Hughes signs, and there is limited cap left for Pettersson. Canucks will need to trade away roster players to match any offer over 10.
You realize they both have the same agent right? The signings will likely be announced simultaneously. Unlikely one holds out longer than the other
 
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flying v 604

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Sep 4, 2014
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Because obviously a team would want to see the Hughes first in order to make their offer sheet optimal for making it optimal.
Do people really think Vancouver will announce either deal separately? Why would the team since they have the same agent not just announce them at the same time? Especially if the Hughes one is done first at it takes up 7-8 of the 16-17 million left for their deals.
Benning specifically made sure there was always enough cap to match an os so I'm sure he has protection in case Quinn gets signed first.
I'm not an expert on offer sheets but that doesn't even sound legal and since only teams worse than the Nucks can even offer one (they probably did last month) I don't see it going down that road. He's in Vancouver if that means anything.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Do people really think Vancouver will announce either deal separately? Why would the team since they have the same agent not just announce them at the same time? Especially if the Hughes one is done first at it takes up 7-8 of the 16-17 million left for their deals.
Benning specifically made sure there was always enough cap to match an os so I'm sure he has protection in case Quinn gets signed first.
I'm not an expert on offer sheets but that doesn't even sound legal and only teams worse than the Nucks can even offer one (they probably did last month) I don't see it gosinceing down that road. He's in Vancouver if that means anything.

Any team can do an offer sheet, as long as they have the required picks.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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You realize they both have the same agent right? The signings will likely be announced simultaneously. Unlikely one holds out longer than the other
Neither has a contract, so technically neither is “holding out” until the season starts.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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I think the possibility of an offer sheet is something the Canucks have to regain some flexibility to guard against, even though right now nobody is likely planning an offer sheet. The problem comes if the Canucks lose the ability to match if they sign Hughes first.

Right now the Canucks are looking at the possibility of signing Hughes long term and Pettersson to a bridge.

Above we saw @Favin predict an $8.35 million cap hit for Hughes. Let's go with that as an example for now.

I have a spread sheet with the Canucks roster and cap hits. It involves a few assumptions about who makes the team, but realistically there isn't a lot of room to change it as the players on the bubble aren't paid all that differently. The biggest opportunity to play with it would be to keep a roster of fewer than 23 players.

My spreadsheet has the Canucks $16.789 million * under the salary cap. That would leave them $16.789 million for Hughes, Pettersson and whatever extra they need through the year to deal with short term absences due to injuries and illnesses that they don't get long term injury relief for, as well as the occasional absence on compassionate grounds.

Let's assume the Canucks announce tomorrow that they have signed Hughes to a deal at the amount @Favin hypothesized. That would leave the Canucks with just under $8.44 million for Pettersson and whatever margin they need for short term absences.

At that stage, knowing the Canucks are not in a position to match, a team with cap room might very well decide to offer Pettersson a deal at $9 or $10 million, with the Canucks unable to match. The Canucks would have just under a week to find some way to very quickly dump salary.

Normally a team could clear enough space by trading a lower paid player at a discount.

The Canucks have a lot of players who are paid more than their market value. At the beginning of the season, it might be tough to give them away without throwing in as a sweetener significant additional value. It also would be difficult to do without Benning openly doing something he's claimed he would not do, give away assets in order to dump payroll.

The point is, cap flexibility does matter. Signing Hughes to a long term deal before signing EP would take away much of the little cap flexibility Benning has left.

* Assumed roster of (F) Boeser, Horvat, Miller, Garland, Pearson, Dickinson, Motte, Sutter, Podkolzin, Hoglander, MacEwen, Highmore, (D) OEL, Myers, Hamonic, Poolman, Rathbone, Schenn, Juolevi, (G) Demko, Halak, with Hughes and Pettersson to come. For discussion purposes Ferland has been disregarded, though the need to get as close to the cap as possible with him on the roster before putting him on injured reserve the first day of the season so as to maximize long term injury relief puts additional pressure on Benning to get his free agents signed before the season starts. Without Pettersson and Hughes, the Canucks aren't going very close to the $81.5 million salary cap even including Ferland.

That's a long response, but it doesnt address the fact that this exact reality would still exist whether the offer sheet is made before or after Hughes is theoretically signed.

Is the theory that Hughes will suddenly ask for less money if Pettersson signs an offer sheet? I have no clue why one would presume that.

There's no reason for another GM to putter around based on a conspriacy theory power play. If they want to offer sheet Pettersson, they will.
 

McJedi

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Apr 21, 2020
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Dahlin signs first. The other four end up as holdouts.

Kirill and Tkachuk sign after the season has started. Both Vancouver guys signed bridge deals 3 years or less.

Kirill signs 4 x $8.5mm.

Tkachuk signs a bridge deal.
 
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tyhee

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Feb 5, 2015
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That's a long response, but it doesnt address the fact that this exact reality would still exist whether the offer sheet is made before or after Hughes is theoretically signed. ...

The players are in different positions. Hughes wasn't eligible for arbitration and isn't eligible to receive an offer sheet.

If Pettersson gets an offer sheet the Canucks can match and then deal with Hughes without losing anybody's NHL rights. They may have to sign him to a bridge and he may even go to Europe for a year, but the Canucks don't lose his rights.

If Hughes is signed first, an offer sheet to Pettersson that the Canucks can't match can result in the Canucks having to give up Pettersson for a return that they would consider insufficient.
 
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Digitalbooya

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True, though it seemed like the vast, vast majority of NHLers were vaccinated (with a top notch vaccine) by the playoffs last year - could’ve gotten poked then.

Or maybe this is baseless speculation, and he’s fully vaccinated. But if he’s starting from scratch, it’s what, at least 6 weeks to full protection (shot 1, wait 4 weeks, then shot 2, then 2 more weeks). Assuming full vaccination is required, he’d be looking at a very late start if he hasn’t yet got his first shot.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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The players are in different positions. Hughes wasn't eligible for arbitration and isn't eligible to receive an offer sheet.

If Pettersson gets an offer sheet the Canucks can match and then deal with Hughes without losing anybody's NHL rights. They may have to sign him to a bridge and he may even go to Europe for a year, but the Canucks don't lose his rights.

If Hughes is signed first, an offer sheet to Pettersson that the Canucks can't match can result in the Canucks having to give up Pettersson for a return that they would consider insufficient.

I didn't say they weren't in different positions and you're still not acknowledging the reality that every GM can see the writing on the wall, same as you. Salary cap is a problem before or after Hughes signs.

You've provided no reasoning to justify the conspiracy theory that another GM wants Pettersson, but only if Hughes signs first.
 

57special

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It seems like the top RFA's are waiting for someone to sign and set the market.
 

Whileee

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Russo said he thinks some of the others might be waiting to see what Kaprizov can squeeze out of MIN. Not sure they can wait but it's reasonable some are delaying.
EP might be smart to wait until Kaprizov is signed.
 

centipede2233

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Sep 13, 2010
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It seems like the top RFA's are waiting for someone to sign and set the market.
I feel in EP case, the market has been set with the barzal and point bridges. However in Hughes case, your statement I feel is true in that Hughes camp can only benefit from dahlin signing first as if he’s a big AAV, Hughes argument is he has outperformed dahlin and is deserving more. If the Hughes camp do not like the dahlin AAV , then they will use the makar contract.
 

Whileee

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If it's a bridge for EP, then probably something in the $7-7.5M AAV range for 3 years, with a salary around $10M in the third year to set the qualifying offer for subsequent deals. That's basically the Barzal deal, and a bit higher than Point's, which included a bit of the TB discount.
 

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