Which tournaments matter in which countries?

[Jablkon]

I'm pretty sure I understand the Russian viewpoint as well or better than you and I'm not wrong. When Russia wins its first best on best tournament I can guarantee that it will make the WC victories after that less valuable to them. They only mean so much now because they haven't won a major tournament.

I do not want to talk on behalf russians but you really simplify a lot of things about euroepan/russian hockey. What I remember, and russians here will correct if Iam wrong, russians struggled to convinced their best players to represent their country in 90s and beginning of 2000. There were even conflicts among some stars and russian management. Ovechkin's generation is first that bring back the attitude to national team what all the people in russia expected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYod2wzdgKk

 

[Jablkon]

It's true that the Olympic gold may make the WHC gold less valuable, but the effect likely won't be as significant as you think. You are looking this from NA point-of-view. Tournament status is more important for you Canadians. Many Europeans don't care too much about the status, we can enjoy the tournament anyway, and be happy if we win. We don't need to prove our superiority with some mini-tournament, which format is a joke.

What could some Finland prove anyway by winning Olympic gold? Canadians would just say here that it was a fluke which can happen in such short tournament. Czechs won gold in Nagano but still they care about WHCs. Swedes don't care too much about WHCs nowadays, but I don't think Olympic gold is the main reason for that.

Actaully three consecutive wins in WC (99,00,01) are still very valued here.WC will always be top of the season here. Of course Olympics have higher status but that does not have any impact on WC position in CZ.

 

[cutchemist42]

Overall, this sport has a real international problem when this discussion even exists about every country having different priorities at the top. I think its sad for the sport.

 

[Kap-the-Head]

Some here might critisize my analogy, nevertheless, this is my thought process.

In soccer you have Euro and World Cup. While Euro does not have "Brazils" and "Argentinas", it is still very valued in Europe, I would even say, it gets the same hype as the World Cup does.

In IIHF WC, most of Europe's nations can put up competetive rosters, while NA teams are either incapable of doing so or choose not to. I am personally OK, with having a tournament with "Brazil/Argentina" not being competetive in it, as long as I get to see "Germany/Holland/Spain/France/Etc", I'll be happy.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

Fellow Canadians do we really care about the WC? I mean with the playoffs still going on etc.

It makes it tough in the states as well. Hockey fans are geared up for NHL playoffs. Last nights game between the Kings-Blackhawks is a good example.

Plus the time(s) of the WC games during the weekday make it tough. Now that NBCSports covers the WC it has been great to have both for me.

 

[Kalzu]

Some here might critisize my analogy, nevertheless, this is my thought process.

In soccer you have Euro and World Cup. While Euro does not have "Brazils" and "Argentinas", it is still very valued in Europe, I would even say, it gets the same hype as the World Cup does.

In IIHF WC, most of Europe's nations can put up competetive rosters, while NA teams are either incapable of doing so or choose not to. I am personally OK, with having a tournament with "Brazil/Argentina" not being competetive in it, as long as I get to see "Germany/Holland/Spain/France/Etc", I'll be happy.

I see your point. But there are a couple of differences. Soccer Euro has the best possibble teams, IIHF WC not even with European countries.

Plus given the WC is only once in four years and there's nothing else than Euro which is also only once in four years, Euro is important. The IIHF WC being annual devaluates it. It's not so special.

 

[Canuckistani]

Overall, this sport has a real international problem when this discussion even exists about every country having different priorities at the top. I think its sad for the sport.

Similar discussions take place for all sports.

Take soccer. Everyone agrees that the World Cup is most important, but after that opinions vary.

Europeans regard the Euro Championships as also being a huge event, yet Brazilians and Argentines would counter that its a very distant second place without the best of South America.

The South American version of the Euros is the Copa America - the value of which differs from place to place. For several events Brazil sent an U-23 squad and didn't overly care for the result.

The Confederations Cup and Olympic soccer also have their fans and detractors.

 

[Jacksonbobson]

1. Olympic
2. World Juniors
3. World Cup (if it ever comes back)
4. WC

I don't think the World Cup will surpass World Juniors if it comes back, despite its connection with the Canada Cup. (but maybe I am overrating the interest in World Junior hockey in Canada)

 

[Xokkeu]

1. Olympic
2. World Juniors
3. World Cup (if it ever comes back)
4. WC

I don't think the World Cup will surpass World Juniors if it comes back, despite its connection with the Canada Cup. (but maybe I am overrating the interest in World Junior hockey in Canada)

I bet if they played the world cup in December-January it would decimate the World Juniors. September? Not so much.

 

[Xokkeu]

Similar discussions take place for all sports.

Take soccer. Everyone agrees that the World Cup is most important, but after that opinions vary.

Europeans regard the Euro Championships as also being a huge event, yet Brazilians and Argentines would counter that its a very distant second place without the best of South America.

The South American version of the Euros is the Copa America - the value of which differs from place to place. For several events Brazil sent an U-23 squad and didn't overly care for the result.

The Confederations Cup and Olympic soccer also have their fans and detractors.

Olympic soccer is the rough equivalent of the World Championships in hockey. European nations and players don't really value the Olympics, while in the Americas they are considered a major tournament.

 

[roto]

The beauty with soccer is that it's not NA centric, so there is no ultimate business league like NHL which North Americans can lift above all international play. In ice hockey best players play only few international games every four years and then some people try to make some conclusions (=prove something) based on those joke tournaments. That's all we have but still it doesn't mean that the sample size and rate is enough, because it's not.

In soccer we have international games with top players every year. There are either tournaments, qualifications or friendlies, which all affect the world ranking too. When the players get to play with each other in national team, the quality level of play is much better in tournaments when compared to ice hockey, where players get together few days before the mini tournament starts. The NHL players are not even allowed to practise together on ice with national teams in summertime before the season starts.

The soccer leagues have international breaks in the middle of the seasons. Bettman would laugh his a** off if someone would propose that NHL should have a few international breaks per season to allow players to play in national team qualifications or even just in friendlies. European ice hockey leagues have international breaks and it's not a major problem for them: most players can rest and heal up to be more fresh after the break.

International games are just not that important to North Americans and it's part of NA sports culture that NA centric sports have these draft-based big money leagues in NA, which are then lifted above anything else. I don't think we'll ever have proper international play system in ice hockey. That's sad but true.

 

[daver]

The beauty with soccer is that it's not NA centric, so there is no ultimate business league like NHL which North Americans can lift above all international play. In ice hockey best players play only few international games every four years and then some people try to make some conclusions (=prove something) based on those joke tournaments. That's all we have but still it doesn't mean that the sample size and rate is enough, because it's not.

In soccer we have international games with top players every year. There are either tournaments, qualifications or friendlies, which all affect the world ranking too. When the players get to play with each other in national team, the quality level of play is much better in tournaments when compared to ice hockey, where players get together few days before the mini tournament starts. The NHL players are not even allowed to practise together on ice with national teams in summertime before the season starts.

The soccer leagues have international breaks in the middle of the seasons. Bettman would laugh his a** off if someone would propose that NHL should have a few international breaks per season to allow players to play in national team qualifications or even just in friendlies. European ice hockey leagues have international breaks and it's not a major problem for them: most players can rest and heal up to be more fresh after the break.

International games are just not that important to North Americans and it's part of NA sports culture that NA centric sports have these draft-based big money leagues in NA, which are then lifted above anything else. I don't think we'll ever have proper international play system in ice hockey. That's sad but true.

A soccer world champion is ultimately crowned after a similar joke tournament every four years isn't it? The difference is hockey does not really need games in between for ranking purposes.

 

[roto]

A soccer world champion is ultimately crowned after a similar joke tournament every four years isn't it? The difference is hockey does not really need games in between for ranking purposes.

I'm not sure if you were serious or not, but you're wrong. In soccer WC you actually need to win games in order to get to 1/8 finals and it's not a walk in a park even for top teams. In ice hockey Olympic tournament you can lose all the round-robin games and you still get to play for gold.

You're correct on that ice hockey doesn't need soccer style qualifications, but that's not the point. The point was that in soccer the leagues are committed to allowing international games, and it makes it possible to see best players playing every year. Higher amount of high quality international games mean higher sample size and sample rate is also quite good and steady. WC is only the tip of the iceberg in international soccer games where best players participate. It's like QF stage of the ice hockey Olympic tournament.

Canadians often complain on this forum how unfair IIHF ranking is and say that olympic tournament should have bigger emphasis. Accurate ranking does not come from having one mini tournament every 4 years. I doubt you'd want to emphasize the Sochi results if Latvia had got a lucky bounce in Sochi QF and won 1-2 instead of Canada winning 2-1, or if Canada had lost to USA 0-1 and not vice versa. Higher sample rate and bigger sample size provides foundation for a good ranking. Losing one QF doesn't change the ranking much if the country has otherwise been generally good.

 

[patnyrnyg]

For me, as an American as far as international:

1 Olympics/World Cup
2 World Jrs

The rest do not matter. I have always considered the WHC to be the Euro Championship. I just find it funny when the Russians win and Ovechkin and Malkin act like it is some huge accomplishment for Russian hockey.

 

[patnyrnyg]

The beauty with soccer is that it's not NA centric, so there is no ultimate business league like NHL which North Americans can lift above all international play. In ice hockey best players play only few international games every four years and then some people try to make some conclusions (=prove something) based on those joke tournaments. That's all we have but still it doesn't mean that the sample size and rate is enough, because it's not.

In soccer we have international games with top players every year. There are either tournaments, qualifications or friendlies, which all affect the world ranking too. When the players get to play with each other in national team, the quality level of play is much better in tournaments when compared to ice hockey, where players get together few days before the mini tournament starts. The NHL players are not even allowed to practise together on ice with national teams in summertime before the season starts.

In soccer, which league is best is also debatable. One of the most entertaining evenings I ever had was when I was out drinking with my beach soccer team (I was the goalie. DIdn't really have any skill, I am just big, fairly athletic, and not afraid to get blasted with the ball at close range). Anyways, team was all guys from Europe and I asked about which league was best over there. Wow, the fireworks that went off. Anyways, aside from that you also have great players playing in different countries. Rinaldo playing for Real Madrid for example.

Not the case in hockey. Aside from what many KHL fans on here would like to believe, the NHL is far and away the best league. To say otherwise is just not being objective. The best North Americans, Swedes, Finns, Czechs, Russians, Slovaks are all playing in the NHL. I know there are a few exceptions, Radulov for example, but let's be realistic. If you want a true best on best, it is going to be at a time that works for the NHL. If Russians want to think if the WHC as the most important tourney, more power to them. Just do not expect North Americans to put any stock into Russia beating the US and Canada's C or D squad (or worse).

The soccer leagues have international breaks in the middle of the seasons. Bettman would laugh his a** off if someone would propose that NHL should have a few international breaks per season to allow players to play in national team qualifications or even just in friendlies. European ice hockey leagues have international breaks and it's not a major problem for them: most players can rest and heal up to be more fresh after the break.

International games are just not that important to North Americans and it's part of NA sports culture that NA centric sports have these draft-based big money leagues in NA, which are then lifted above anything else. I don't think we'll ever have proper international play system in ice hockey. That's sad but true.

I thought European soccer seasons run from August-May with June and July set aside for the big tourneys? Euro Cup, World Cup etc? Then the Champions League and World Cup Qualifying are scheduled around the professional leagues schedules? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Theokritos]

A soccer world champion is ultimately crowned after a similar joke tournament every four years isn't it? The difference is hockey does not really need games in between for ranking purposes.

It's certainly an advantage that soccer teams train and play together time and time again in qualification games and friendlies between the big tournaments. Chemistry etc. Whereas in hockey you have teams cobbled together for a rather short period of time. In terms of quality the untapped potential is considerable.

I thought European soccer seasons run from August-May with June and July set aside for the big tourneys? Euro Cup, World Cup etc? Then the Champions League and World Cup Qualifying are scheduled around the professional leagues schedules? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Basically, but the schedules of the leagues are also adjusted to the needs of international competition. The FIFA Calendar reserves dates for international games and the leagues observe those dates.

 

[roto]

patnyrnyg: I don't know what was the point of your post. I guess nobody disagrees on that NHL has best players. The problem is that international play in ice hockey sucks and one big reason is that NHL thinks nothing else than its own income.

I mentioned soccer as an example because there the things are way different, and same applies to most other non-NA centric sports. You are entitled to think that one league from NA (NHL) has right to bully the rest of ice hockey world. Many others disagree with you. Your opinion is very typical view from NA perspective, where international play between countries is very secondary to one big league in NA. Still it's only one league played in two countries. IIHF has 52 full member countries and there are only few countries having team of NHL players, most of the teams have something from few to none NHL players.

I can add to post of Theokritos that many soccer leagues are ongoing during summer time (April-October) like Finnish and Swedish leagues. I don't know what happens if Finland makes WC or EC, but it's clear that the leagues adjusts in one way or another.

 

[patnyrnyg]

patnyrnyg: I don't know what was the point of your post. I guess nobody disagrees on that NHL has best players. The problem is that international play in ice hockey sucks and one big reason is that NHL thinks nothing else than its own income.

I mentioned soccer as an example because there the things are way different, and same applies to most other non-NA centric sports. You are entitled to think that one league from NA (NHL) has right to bully the rest of ice hockey world. Many others disagree with you. Your opinion is very typical view from NA perspective, where international play between countries is very secondary to one big league in NA. Still it's only one league played in two countries. IIHF has 52 full member countries and there are only few countries having team of NHL players, most of the teams have something from few to none NHL players.

I can add to post of Theokritos that many soccer leagues are ongoing during summer time (April-October) like Finnish and Swedish leagues. I don't know what happens if Finland makes WC or EC, but it's clear that the leagues adjusts in one way or another.

The NHL is a business. What are they supposed to care about? They have shut down their season 5 times for the Olympics. Risked the health of their players and didn't get a dime in return. But I guess they only care about their income. There has been no proof to show that Olympic exposure has helped grow the NHL in the US. Twice the US played Canada for Gold and this year was playing for a medal. Nothing. Secondly, there has not been any indication that North Americans have any interest in the WHC. So, why should they adjust if 95% of their fan base does not care?

Yes, IIHF has 52 countries and many do not have any players in the NHL, because they are not that good. Are you saying the NHL should adjust so that the national teams of France, Hungary, and Romania can get some exposure?

 

[Urbanskog]

IIHF has 52 countries

73 members, of which 54 are full members*

 

[roto]

The NHL is a business. What are they supposed to care about? They have shut down their season 5 times for the Olympics. Risked the health of their players and didn't get a dime in return. But I guess they only care about their income. There has been no proof to show that Olympic exposure has helped grow the NHL in the US. Twice the US played Canada for Gold and this year was playing for a medal. Nothing. Secondly, there has not been any indication that North Americans have any interest in the WHC. So, why should they adjust if 95% of their fan base does not care?

Yes, IIHF has 52 countries and many do not have any players in the NHL, because they are not that good. Are you saying the NHL should adjust so that the national teams of France, Hungary, and Romania can get some exposure?

This pretty much sums up the typical NA view about what's the role of NHL in ice hockey world. It also shows how the ice hockey world looks through NHL glasses when looked from NA. This shows what is the reason why international play in ice hockey is a joke when compared to other sports (except NA centric sports). I'm glad that North Americans can't ruin the international play of soccer.

 

[Tomas W]

I think a World Cup would matter more than a regular a World championship in a way, as it would bring in greater stars. Individual stars are important in Sweden too. However the World Cup might be seen a little like a NHL invital/friendly tournament and not a real world championship. In a way it is sense there is no telling when or if and how the tournament will be played.

 

[patnyrnyg]

This pretty much sums up the typical NA view about what's the role of NHL in ice hockey world. It also shows how the ice hockey world looks through NHL glasses when looked from NA. This shows what is the reason why international play in ice hockey is a joke when compared to other sports (except NA centric sports). I'm glad that North Americans can't ruin the international play of soccer.

Americans will get into the World Cup, but most don't really care about soccer

As far as hockey, only way it will change is if the best Euros stay in Europe instead of coming to the NHL.

 

[patnyrnyg]

73 members, of which 54 are full members*

whatever. was just using the numbers from the post above mine. 73 members, 54 members, only 7 of which can really compete at the highest level.

 

[Jablkon]

The NHL is a business. What are they supposed to care about? They have shut down their season 5 times for the Olympics. Risked the health of their players and didn't get a dime in return. But I guess they only care about their income. There has been no proof to show that Olympic exposure has helped grow the NHL in the US. Twice the US played Canada for Gold and this year was playing for a medal. Nothing. Secondly, there has not been any indication that North Americans have any interest in the WHC. So, why should they adjust if 95% of their fan base does not care?

Yes, IIHF has 52 countries and many do not have any players in the NHL, because they are not that good. Are you saying the NHL should adjust so that the national teams of France, Hungary, and Romania can get some exposure?

Soccer is much bigger worldwide than hockey and it still has important international games every year - i.e. qualifiying games and then UEFA CUP,COPA America or World cup -for one purpose - keep people supplied by football. If you think that such a "small" sport as hockey is, can afford to have international competition just every four years, well it is not very smart. No WHC would cause drastic decline of hockey popularity in Europe, which also means decrease of NHL quality . Lets remember how was NHL without europeans.....Everything depends now just on NHL , that is probably just addicted to earn more and more money (soccer leagues risk injuries of their players several times per season during breaks).No problem with that. But downgrading WHC for whatever reason is just stupidity for reasons I mentioned above....

 

[patnyrnyg]

Soccer is much bigger worldwide than hockey and it still has important international games every year - i.e. qualifiying games and then UEFA CUP,COPA America or World cup -for one purpose - keep people supplied by football. If you think that such a "small" sport as hockey is, can afford to have international competition just every four years, well it is not very smart. No WHC would cause drastic decline of hockey popularity in Europe, which also means decrease of NHL quality . Lets remember how was NHL without europeans.....Everything depends now just on NHL , that is probably just addicted to earn more and more money (soccer leagues risk injuries of their players several times per season during breaks).No problem with that. But downgrading WHC for whatever reason is just stupidity for reasons I mentioned above....

Wait, you think Euros would stop coming to the NHL if there was no WHC? Haha, ok. You can have the WHC, just don't expect NA to care.

Like I said, if the other leagues ever get on a par with the NHL, then they can talk about expanding the International scene. Like I said earlier, in soccer you can actually debate who is better, Man City or Barcelona, Munich or Roma, etc. Can debate which league is best. With hockey, there is no such argument. Well, I guess you can argue about the best teams, but the argument would be be strictly amongst the NHL teams. If Euros stopped coming to the NHL, then maybe it could happen.