Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?

[Stephen]

Suzuki can either be a veteran ancillary core piece (not a marquee forward but not quite a depth forward) or a trade piece.

I think Dylan Larkin’s Red Wings career is a good ghost of the future for the Canadiens and where they might be in 3 years time. Maybe knocking on the door of a playoff spot, either side of 8th place. But you don’t have a cohesive wave like New Jersey. By the time a guy like Demidov is hitting his prime yeah I see Suzuki as a veteran forward, secondary piece.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Larkin is not better than Stutzle,

Stutzle is a young legit #1 center who has already shown he can be a top 10 center in this league.

Once he puts it together he will be a legit top 10 center for along time.

Larkin is a 1b type center high end 2nd liner saying he is better than Stutzle is a joke even at the moment which he is not.

The bolded isn’t necessarily relevant when the claim was that Larkin is better ”at the moment”. He certainly was the season.

 

[John Mandalorian]

They are both so far from relevance that it doesn't matter.

I think a large segment of both fanbases really don't seem to believe that they're still 5-6 years away from being anything close to a contender. Playoffs in that time? Sure. But a serious shot is going to need more talent.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but this doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Some/several teams in the east might be aging out soon.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Larkin is not better than Stutzle,

Stutzle is a young legit #1 center who has already shown he can be a top 10 center in this league.

Once he puts it together he will be a legit top 10 center for along time.

Larkin is a 1b type center high end 2nd liner saying he is better than Stutzle is a joke even at the moment which he is not.

Yeah. Some of the comments about Stützle in this thread are laughable. He’s better than Larkin now. His talent level is superior to Raymond. Stützle’s ceiling is that of an elite player and he’s already very good.

An interesting question in this discussion about Detroit vs Montreal rebuilding is which team is more likely to cave in and short cut the rebuild by bringing in a big fish. I can see Yzerman doing this fairly soon. I doubt Montreal is there yet. I can see them kicking the can down the road a little longer.

 

[Miller Time]

Montreal's rebuild isn't really that in sync when you look at the age of someone like Nick Suzuki who is turning 25 and entering his prime now vs a cornerstone piece that was just drafted like Demidov who is 18. A 7 year age gap looks something like a Jordan Eberle (2008 draft) to a Connor McDavid (2015 draft) or something like Tyler Seguin (2010 draft) to a Jason Robertson/Miro Heiskanen (2017 draft) in Dallas. They're almost a half career apart when talking about age gaps and development timelines.

This is a very odd take.

Might want to go look back at various cup winning rosters.

 

[Miller Time]

Under the GMs leading the respective rebuilds:

Habs are heading into year 3 (Hughes)
Red Wings are heading into year 6 (Yzerman)

I think it's a very safe bet that the Habs in 2026-27 will be considerably further ahead than the 2023-24 Red Wings. AINEC.

 

[Stephen]

This is a very odd take.

Might want to go look back at various cup winning rosters.

I don't think Suzuki at 1C at any age is going to be cup winning quality. All is to say if Montreal is going to do something special with their rebuild, those key players making the push will be from upcoming drafts.

 

[Mr Positive]

I don't think Suzuki at 1C at any age is going to be cup winning quality. All is to say if Montreal is going to do something special with their rebuild, those key players making the push will be from upcoming drafts.

It makes it an interesting comparison to Detroit though. They seem similar.

 

[Stephen]

It makes it an interesting comparison to Detroit though. They seem similar.

Yeah, Larkin to Suzuki is a good comparison, and maybe Reinbacher to Seider if it all works out for the Habs. But it really doesn’t feel like they have that coordinated wave that a team like Jersey presented when they shot out of the basement.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

I don't think Suzuki at 1C at any age is going to be cup winning quality. All is to say if Montreal is going to do something special with their rebuild, those key players making the push will be from upcoming drafts.

Odd statement considering Suzuki at 21 years old was the 1C and best forward of a team that went to the Stanley Cup finals, and he's a much better player now.

 

[FerrisRox]

This is a very odd take.

Might want to go look back at various cup winning rosters.

Even stranger when he's rounding Suzuki up to age 25 because he has a birthday coming up still in 2024, but he's not rounding Demidov up, despite the fact that he too has a birthday coming up in 2024, so he can pretend there's a seven year gap that doesn't exist.

Just a weird take and a weird post.

 

[Miller Time]

I don't think Suzuki at 1C at any age is going to be cup winning quality. All is to say if Montreal is going to do something special with their rebuild, those key players making the push will be from upcoming drafts.

Your takes continue to be quite odd.

21 year old Suzuki was 1C on a cup finalist team. He's significantly better today, and quite likely to continue improving before he hits his peak. Easily good enough to be 1C on a contender.

But how good a 1C is isn't what determines if a team will contend...

Crosby & Jack Hughes, among others, didn't make the POs this year. Are they not good enough 1Cs to win a cup

Again, I'd invite you to do a little bit of research, will help inform these very poorly grounded takes.

 

[Stephen]

Your takes continue to be quite odd.

21 year old Suzuki was 1C on a cup finalist team. He's significantly better today, and quite likely to continue improving before he hits his peak. Easily good enough to be 1C on a contender.

But how good a 1C is isn't what determines if a team will contend...

Crosby & Jack Hughes, among others, didn't make the POs this year. Are they not good enough 1Cs to win a cup

Again, I'd invite you to do a little bit of research, will help inform these very poorly grounded takes.

See how it goes, I don’t care.

 

[NikolaTesla]

Honestly, this might hurt you but both team are not doing it very well.

Im sure you could do better, right?

 

[JianYang]

Montreal's rebuild isn't really that in sync when you look at the age of someone like Nick Suzuki who is turning 25 and entering his prime now vs a cornerstone piece that was just drafted like Demidov who is 18. A 7 year age gap looks something like a Jordan Eberle (2008 draft) to a Connor McDavid (2015 draft) or something like Tyler Seguin (2010 draft) to a Jason Robertson/Miro Heiskanen (2017 draft) in Dallas. They're almost a half career apart when talking about age gaps and development timelines.

Suzuki represents the oldest piece to the rebuild. It is why I think Montreal will be more aggressive starting next summer when he will be turning 26.

That will be when management's job gets hard because they need to make use of Suzuki's prime time, yet you don't want to get in the way of development for all those players in the pipeline either.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Probably a fair comment but they were not going to get back to draft in the top 3-5 after 2021. SJ, Chi, Ana were really bad the past couple of seasons.

Det is ahead in the hardest area which is Dmen. Seider is rock solid big minute guy. Evindsson done what he was hoped to do on the A and now ready for nhl roster spot. Habs D can’t say that. All still hopefuls vs anyone locking in a spot long term.

Habs have more established young forwards but that is easier to develop in time over Dmen.

Both need to see a young G develop. Cossa older than Fowler so he’s further along. But both still a question mark at this point in time.

So has most of Habs high end D that aren't in the NHL. Mailloux, Hutson & Reinbacher all have progressed well and done what was hoped for in their respective league (aside from Reinbacher who played on a shit show but showed great things in the AHL at the end of the season). It wouldn't too hard to put up an argument that Montreal D will be more successful than Detroit's in less than two years time. If anything, I think Detroit D is their biggest weakness.

I'm also not sure why you think Montreal desperately need to develop a young G. Primeau is 24 and just came off a .910 season in his first NHL season. Montembeault is 27 and has one of the best high scoring danger chance save % in the league and has been playing pretty well. None of Primeau, Fowler or Montembeault are expecting to be all-star G but you don't need one to win the cup. You just need a good & consistent goalie.

Habs in the end dealt Romanov which ended up being Dach via the follow up trade to Chicago. So they dealt a legit nhl Dman who is 24 for Dach.

As for the Newhook picks. Probably going to wait another 2-3 years for them to develop.

But Habs really do need Guhle and Reinbacher to be legit.

Guhle isn't already legit? He just played his 21 years old season as a top 4 and a good chunk of the season as a top 2D. He's certainly legit. On the contrary, Montreal needs Hutson to hit as an offensive wizard which he has shown glimpses of at the end of last season and one of Reinbacher or Mailloux to hit as a top pairing RHD, which Reinbacher as shown glimpses of in his very small AHL stint so far as a D+1

Montreal's rebuild isn't really that in sync when you look at the age of someone like Nick Suzuki who is turning 25 and entering his prime now vs a cornerstone piece that was just drafted like Demidov who is 18. A 7 year age gap looks something like a Jordan Eberle (2008 draft) to a Connor McDavid (2015 draft) or something like Tyler Seguin (2010 draft) to a Jason Robertson/Miro Heiskanen (2017 draft) in Dallas. They're almost a half career apart when talking about age gaps and development timelines.

Stamkos won his first cup at 29. Barkov at 28. Ovy at 31.

Unless you think a 29-30 years old is washed up and shouldn't be part of a contending team?

Suzuki can either be a veteran ancillary core piece (not a marquee forward but not quite a depth forward) or a trade piece.

Why would Suzuki be a trade piece? He's 24 years old, coming off a 77 points season on an offensive starved team and is still signed for 7 more years at 7.8M.

 

[viceroy]

Even stranger when he's rounding Suzuki up to age 25 because he has a birthday coming up still in 2024, but he's not rounding Demidov up, despite the fact that he too has a birthday coming up in 2024, so he can pretend there's a seven year gap that doesn't exist.

Just a weird take and a weird post.

Shhh... He's a mod.

See how it goes, I don’t care.

Enough to post amigo.

 

[viceroy]

I'm also not sure why you think Montreal desperately need to develop a young G. Primeau is 24 and just came off a .910 season in his first NHL season. Montembeault is 27 and has one of the best high scoring danger chance save % in the league and has been playing pretty well. None of Primeau, Fowler or Montembeault are expecting to be all-star G but you don't need one to win the cup. You just need a good & consistent goalie.

Speak for yourself, I have high apple pie in the sky hopes for Fowler.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Speak for yourself, I have high apple pie in the sky hopes for Fowler.

I think we all do but he’s not a make or break for Montreal. If he doesn’t pan out its not the end of the world.

On the contrary, if Mailloux and Reinbacher doesn’t pan out then it will become a problem when it will be the time to compete.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Montembeault is 27 and has one of the best high scoring danger chance save % in the league and has been playing pretty well. None of Primeau, Fowler or Montembeault are expecting to be all-star G but you don't need one to win the cup. You just need a good & consistent goalie.

Goalies that played a minimum of 500 minutes last year he ranked 34th in that category.( 5 on 5)

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Goalies that played 1000+ minutes, ranked
29th out of 61
1500+ minutes, 20th out of 41 goalies that played that much
if go to 2000+ minutes, not listed.

So looks about middle of the pack on HDSV%, not actually one of the best.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Goalies that played a minimum of 500 minutes last year he ranked 34th in that category.( 5 on 5)

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Goalies that played 1000+ minutes, ranked
29th out of 61
1500+ minutes, 20th out of 41 goalies that played that much
if go to 2000+ minutes, not listed.

So looks about middle of the pack on HDSV%, not actually one of the best.

Are you sure the link you mentioned is accurate? According to this site, Primeau has a .925 SV% but on the official NHL website he’s sitting at .910.

I might have misread the stats about Montembeault as well.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Are you sure the link you mentioned is accurate? According to this site, Primeau has a .925 SV% but on the official NHL website he’s sitting at .910.

I might have misread the stats about Montembeault as well.

Maybe you missed the 5 on 5 part.
Ya it’s a good trustworthy site.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Maybe you missed the 5 on 5 part.
Ya it’s a good trustworthy site.

Oh yeah I did. So these stats are strictly 5 on 5. Interesting, I guess the stats I read on Montembeault were false.

 

[L4br3cqu3]

Habs are kind of in the middle of their rebuild, acquired highly talented F prospects in the last draft (which was an area of need, even after Slafkovsky), but still very much a 'work in progress' as far as timeline goes. As a Habs fan, I'm optimistic for the first time in years about the direction we're taking, cause we finally seem to have a real one. Still think we're going to have a rough year, we still have lackluster veterans that needs to f*** off, but at least, we do have good young forwards, our D depth is something I ain't seen in a while, and our G pipeline is the most impressive I've seen in nearly 20 years. We're just not there yet.

That said, Detroit, like many said already, are attempting to turn the corner, I think their rebuild is over, you don't sign that many veteran UFAs in a rebuild, especially when they kinda get in the way of your prospects. I get they want to surround them, but still. Yzerman wants to push the team forward, and honestly, the Wings have a lot of interesting pieces to come, so some nurturing to do yet. Team just need to click.

So, 'better' is too subjective for me at this point, I'll simply say Detroit is further ahead.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Oh yeah I did. So these stats are strictly 5 on 5. Interesting, I guess the stats I read on Montembeault were false.

You can change the stats, so it’s not strictly 5 on 5. Ie. all game conditions with PK and PP , 4 on 4 etc all included. It’s just a drop down box.