Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?

[StreetHawk]

And when Detroit was at rock bottom - zero lottery luck.

Going to happen. Just because you finished dead last does not guarantee you win the lottery in 2020. So you land either Laf or Byfield or Stutzle over Raymond? Is that a game changer? Right now no. Could be if Byfield shows more improvement because he's a big body C that would be a big difference. I doubt Raymond to Laf changes things, but getting strength down the middle, very well could.
2019 Ott, no, 2020, Det no, 2021 Buf yes, 2022 Mon yes, 2023 Ana no, 2024 SJ yes. Basically a coin flip since Yzerman took over in terms of the worst team getting the top pick.

Hardest position to develop is a top pairing Dman. Wings have that in Seider and Evindsson is progressing well in the. A and ready for the nhl. Guhle for the Habs is their best young Dman in terms of what he’s done in the nhl so far. Struble and Harris need to show more to hold down a spot. X as well.

Not sure if see a high enough scorer to add to Detroit to match Larkin and Raymond. They need that still but not sure Kasper or Danielson can deliver that.

Detroit needs some of their multiple seconds and thirds when Yzerman took over to develop.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Honestly, this might hurt you but both team are not doing it very well.

 

[izlez]

I wish Detroit would've slowed it down a year or two.

They'll be fine on D imo. Sieder, Edvinsson, ASP etc. Not sure if that combination of D will get it done for them but it gives them the foundation they need to build around. Id be confident running with that D core in the future, especially once the other contracts expire to give them space to take over.

Up front, I'm not confident they have the guns to compete against the rest of the division. I'm sold on Larkin and Raymond, both are top line guys. Beyond that though (and Debrincat in the top 6), I'm not seeing how they will fill out the forwards without needing to sign multiple free agents.

I feel the Habs have more room to have prospects bust. I feel Detroit's rebuild could be 1 or 2 unfortunate events away from falling apart, like a severe injury or regression from Sieder or Larkin would destroy them while the Habs could repivot if Suzuki or Guhle don't pan out.

If you're going to say this, I feel like you need to address the 2022 8th overall pick, the 2023 9th overall pick, and the 2024 15th overall pick.

If you don't like the particular prospects, that's fine. But it's not like the Wings have neglected trying to build up the forward group in the draft

 

[StreetHawk]

If you're going to say this, I feel like you need to address the 2022 8th overall pick, the 2023 9th overall pick, and the 2024 15th overall pick.

If you don't like the particular prospects, that's fine. But it's not like the Wings have neglected trying to build up the forward group in the draft

Plus, how were the wings from 2022-2024 going to out tank those clubs who finished in the bottom 3?

2022 - Mon, NJ (lottery win), AZ, Sea
2023 - Ana, Cbs, Chi
2024 - SJ, Chi, Ana

2-4 spots higher in a draft in those years does what?

2022 - They got Kasper. Any of Wright, Gauthier, Jiricek, Kochinski that much better?
2023 - They got Danielson. Reinbacher, Shiminshev, Michkov, Leonard

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

I like more pieces on Montreal but the best singular piece may be Seider ( depending how Cole , Slaf , Demidov develop but the above is an nhl unicorn ). Edvinsson looks like he could be a problem long term as well ..( for the NHL not Detroit )

 

[Nazzz]

Raymond looks like an 85 point player for his ceiling , Demidov looks like the sky is the limit 120 point player ? Sabre's look better than either team going forward imo.

sky 120 point player. it will be fun

 

[LouJersey]

Is neither still an option?

 

[ColbyChaos]

Detroit has missed the Playoffs eight straight years. They've been rebuilding longer than almost anyone.

Habs literally made the playoffs once over that same span

Covid playoffs have asterisks

 

[ColbyChaos]

They started rebuilding the team several years after Detroit began their rebuild. Detroit is like 3+ years ahead in the process.

Montreal missed in 2016

Detroit missed in 2017

Just because that Sergachev for Drouin trade blew up in your face doesn’t mean you can’t act like the Habs didn’t get a top prospect that year to kick start a youth movement. Not like they were a contender the years before where they made the playoffs either

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I’d rather be a habs fan right now, but they really need Reinbacher/Hutson to be legit. Those late firsts/2nds they traded for Dach and Newhook could have been a nice stable of dmen prospects to derisk that scenario, but I like what Kent Hughes has done a lot.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Forwards - Montreal
Defense - Detroit

 

[danisonfire]

Montreal missed in 2016

Detroit missed in 2017

Just because that Sergachev for Drouin trade blew up in your face doesn’t mean you can’t act like the Habs didn’t get a top prospect that year to kick start a youth movement. Not like they were a contender the years before where they made the playoffs either

Montreal's full rebuild was not in 2016. Montreal has had some of the highest man games lost to injuries in a few of their low years. They went to the Cup finals with their core playing on their last legs (finally I might add). We got a few of those high picks by essentially being forced into playing our AHL team in the NHL with the highest man games lost to injury. If Price ever got injuried, we usually dropped like a stone in the standings. I don't think we were good enough to win the cup, but this team (when healthy) was pretty frustrating to play against. It helps of course when you have Carey Price (on one knee and still great) in net.

We started our rebuild with the new management group. Bargin Bin was still hunting for that deal that could push us over the top. He never fulled committed. He just got a few lucky high picks (injuries) that he wouldn't have got if we had average man games lost number. We would have been mediocre with a strong goalie and defense.

As for Sergachev, that trade blew up when it went through and any sane Montreal fan would have said the same. Remember,we already did the same with Mcdonagh so we were all pissed off to see it happen, AGAIN.

 

[danisonfire]

Wings started with scorched earth whereas Canadians boasted valuable assets prior to their respective rebuild. Didn't Jesperi Kotkaniemi get offersheet?

He did get an offersheet and I still don't know why. The wings have been out of the playoffs for 8 years. Montreal for sure had more valuable assets when we started from the bottom of the rebuild.

Detroit was running on empty after decades of success. We had more assets to move when we made the decision. We also got a few higher picks by luck (mass injuries) when we were a much stronger team (if healthy). That probably accelerated our bottoming out.

It doesn't mean much. One lucky draft can flip things right on their head. Detroit has already got enough pieces to be one lucky draft away from a complete powerhouse. Same for Montreal. Scouting and development is the key.

 

[FerrisRox]

Habs literally made the playoffs once over that same span

Covid playoffs have asterisks

So you want to arbitrarily remove the Canadiens trip to the Stanley Cup Final and then claim they have no playoff success?

I mean, sure, you can do that, but you understand that it's idiotic, right?

 

[Wayfarer13]

Hockey is a high variance sport, let's just say, a confluence of factors came together to produce an unexpected outcome.

A fluke is defined as an unlikely chance occurrence, especially a surprising piece of luck. I think there's certainly an argument to be made regarding the "luck" piece (positive end of variance). It's not the same as saying a team was "undeserving".

Put another way, of all the teams that have made the Stanley Cup Finals in recent times, they are a very easy and popular choice for the weakest looking at all potential factors and angles to make that determina

Because Carey Price wasn't on the team for those. He was part of that team and he was the reason they got there.

Wasn't Price part of the team and did the four Clydesdales protect him?

 

[Mrb1p]

Wasn't Price part of the team and did the four Clydesdales protect him?

During the run yes but he was injured and or unmotivated during those bottom feeder years.

You say finally like they actually had a good enough team to make the finals before then lol. A team with Plekanec and Desharnais as their 1C doesnt deserve to make the finals.

Their core wasn’t good enough to make the finals and it took a Canada only division of mediocre teams to make it happen.

They were gonna do the finals in 2014 up until Kreider happened, and the team had Plekanec and Desharnais ad their top six Cs.

Crap on the team all you want but respect Prices greatness.

 

[StreetHawk]

I’d rather be a habs fan right now, but they really need Reinbacher/Hutson to be legit. Those late firsts/2nds they traded for Dach and Newhook could have been a nice stable of dmen prospects to derisk that scenario, but I like what Kent Hughes has done a lot.

Habs in the end dealt Romanov which ended up being Dach via the follow up trade to Chicago. So they dealt a legit nhl Dman who is 24 for Dach.

As for the Newhook picks. Probably going to wait another 2-3 years for them to develop.

But Habs really do need Guhle and Reinbacher to be legit.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Unexpected? One-off? Unsustainable? Absolutely. However, not a thing happened that was 'fluky'.

How would you define “fluke”?

 

[CanadienShark]

Series was such an ass beating I wouldn’t even brag about it

Meh, Lightning were way over the cap. We took down three other teams enroute. That's more than any other team can say except the Lightning.

 

[Samsquanch]

Going to happen. Just because you finished dead last does not guarantee you win the lottery in 2020. So you land either Laf or Byfield or Stutzle over Raymond? Is that a game changer? Right now no. Could be if Byfield shows more improvement because he's a big body C that would be a big difference. I doubt Raymond to Laf changes things, but getting strength down the middle, very well could.

Your kidding yourself if you dont think that landing Stutzle would have been MASSIVE boost for the Red Wings and their rebuild.

Him playing and developing behind Larkin as the #2C would have dynamically changed the look of that roster and core. And not to mention that he and Seider are best buddies and spend the offseason together, which would have helped to generate some good vibes during some dark times.

Raymond is a good player, but even after last season (a mega down year for Tim who played hurt most of the season), Raymond is just not in the same tier of player as Stutzle, who is easily the most talented player on any one of the Wings, Habs, or Sens rosters.

 

[Prairie Habs]

If you’re ignoring any context, sure. Or you can factor in that Montreal would have missed the playoffs the three years before and after that season without COVID. I can’t think of any other team ever in a similar situation.

Montreal won the division 3 years before covid. If you're looking for the team that missed 3 years before and after, that would be he wings. It's also hilarious you think that habs fans are being disingenuous by pointing out a finals run, simply because a team that was 1 point ahead of us missed the playoffs. I don't see you crying your big crocodile tears for us missing in 18-19 with 96 points (the most ever to miss) when multiple western teams made the playoffs with fewer points, including Colorado with 90. Would you call that a fluke as well and you're going to count that as a season the habs made the playoffs? No? How curious...

 

[FMichael]

Your kidding yourself if you dont think that landing Stutzle would have been MASSIVE boost for the Red Wings and their rebuild.

Him playing and developing behind Larkin as the #2C would have dynamically changed the look of that roster and core. And not to mention that he and Seider are best buddies and spend the offseason together, which would have helped to generate some good vibes during some dark times.

Raymond is a good player, but even after last season (a mega down year for Tim who played hurt most of the season), Raymond is just not in the same tier of player as Stutzle, who is easily the most talented player on any one of the Wings, Habs, or Sens rosters.

No doubt Yzerman would have selected Stutzle had he been available however I feel the levels of talent are close between Stutzle and Raymond.

 

[Jack Skellington]

Probably a fair comment but they were not going to get back to draft in the top 3-5 after 2021. SJ, Chi, Ana were really bad the past couple of seasons.

Det is ahead in the hardest area which is Dmen. Seider is rock solid big minute guy. Evindsson done what he was hoped to do on the A and now ready for nhl roster spot. Habs D can’t say that. All still hopefuls vs anyone locking in a spot long term.

Habs have more established young forwards but that is easier to develop in time over Dmen.

Both need to see a young G develop. Cossa older than Fowler so he’s further along. But both still a question mark at this point in time.

Edvinsson did what was hoped in the AHL and ready for a roster spot.. sure no arguments. But then you say Montreal can't say that? Wouldn't you count Logan Mailloux? Same age as Edvinsson, likely to take a roster spot this year. Had 47 pts in the AHL as a rookie and made the all star game. I'm not saying he's better than Edvinsson but it seems strange to omit him.

 

[StreetHawk]

Edvinsson did what was hoped in the AHL and ready for a roster spot.. sure no arguments. But then you say Montreal can't say that? Wouldn't you count Logan Mailloux? Same age as Edvinsson, likely to take a roster spot this year. Had 47 pts in the AHL as a rookie and made the all star game. I'm not saying he's better than Edvinsson but it seems strange to omit him.

He lost virtually 2 years of development in what would be his draft year and draft plus 1 year. So, he's probably going to need a little more time in the A, which is why I didn't include him as I was just looking at the upcoming season in terms of Dman spots. So, he may get there, but not nearly as close to how far along Edvinsson is at now. Now, he does play the RHD and that is the less crowded side of the Habs D group with Barron and Reinbacher as prospects on that side, while the LHD side is way more crowded with Guhle, Harris, X, Struble, and Hutson competing for spots next season.

 

[Mr Positive]

The Wings have done a much better job at getting a surrounding cast to help the young players along. Debrincat, Compher, Copp, Kane, Tarasenko, Gustafsson, Petry, Husso, Talbot, Lyon, etc. The Wings are aggressive in pushing this roster in talented players and depth. The Canadiens are selling off guys still. Oddly enough several of those veterans that they sold are on the Wings

Edit: I'll just add that it's only a credit to the Wings if it pays off. It might be smarter to add vets AFTER your team breaks through, and not before.

But for now I like the Wings to take a wildcard spot