Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?

[WarriorofTime]

Why would Suzuki be a trade piece? He's 24 years old, coming off a 77 points season and is still signed for 7 more years at 7.8M.

Bingo

 

[Baksfamous112]

Bingo

How does that help Montreal to get out of their rebuild unless you think they should be in a perpetual rebuild like Arizona was for over a decade?

 

[WarriorofTime]

How does that help Montreal to get out of their rebuild unless you think they should be in a perpetual rebuild like Arizona was for over a decade?

It's all about timelines. Anyways, I gave two potential outcomes. Either works.

 

[Baksfamous112]

It's all about timelines. Anyways, I gave two potential outcomes. Either works.

Right. So trade Vlasic for a draft pick asap. He’s not in Chicago’s timeline

 

[WarriorofTime]

Right. So trade Vlasic for a draft pick asap. He’s not in Chicago’s timeline

Suzuki and Vlasic are two years apart, so let's re-visit that topic in two years.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Suzuki and Vlasic are two years apart, so let's re-visit that topic in two years.

But Chicago is at least two years behind Montreal in their rebuild. You currently have one high-end forward with two maybe 3 forwards with top 6 potential which will likely settle as top 9 forwards if they make it. You have two high-end D and a #4 and no goalie whatsoever in the pipeline.

Most of these guys are also under 20 aside from Vlasic, so there will be at least another 3-4 years of growing pain unless your GM is dumb enough to try to patch holes here and there which I doubt he is. He literally traded anyone who had a positive value two years ago.

 

[WarriorofTime]

But Chicago is at least two years behind Montreal in their rebuild. You currently have one high-end forward with two maybe 3 forwards with top 6 potential which will likely settle as top 9 forwards if they make it. You have two high-end D and a #4 and no goalie whatsoever in the pipeline.

Most of these guys are also under 20 aside from Vlasic, so there will be at least another 3-4 years of growing pain unless your GM is dumb enough to try to patch holes here and there which I doubt he is. He literally traded anyone who had a positive value two years ago.

I'm not sure what you're arguing. The Blackhawks aren't the topic here and you're making a non-analogous comparison. Vlasic wouldn't return that much in a trade at the moment because he probably isn't actively sought out by Contenders. Perhaps in two years time though, at which point the Hawks will see where they are.

 

[abj]

Montreal have talent, but Detroit have more talent.

 

[Baksfamous112]

I'm not sure what you're arguing. The Blackhawks aren't the topic here and you're making a non-analogous comparison. Vlasic wouldn't return that much in a trade at the moment because he probably isn't actively sought out by Contenders. Perhaps in two years time though, at which point the Hawks will see where they are.

I was trying to assess your logic and if, in a different scenario (In this case your team) would change or not.

So, if I understand properly, if you feel like your team wouldn't be a contender or at least a pretender by the time Vlasic (or any other prospects) hit 25 then he's a goner.. for draft picks? Wouldn't that eventually bring a never-ending cycle of developing prospects to dump them to contenders as soon as they get close to entering their prime for more draft picks, hence having a long-term losing culture?

Should Buffalo trade Thompson, Tuch and Dahlin since they are respectively 26, 28 and 24 now?

Should Ottawa move out Tkachuk (turning 25 in a couple of months), Batherson (26) and Chabot (27) now?

Should Utah move Keller & Sergachev now that they are going or are currently 26?

 

[WarriorofTime]

I was trying to assess your logic and if, in a different scenario (In this case your team) would change or not.

So, if I understand properly, if you feel like your team wouldn't be a contender or at least a pretender by the time Vlasic (or any other prospects) hit 25 then he's a goner.. for draft picks? Wouldn't that eventually bring a never-ending cycle of developing prospects to dump them to contenders as soon as they get close to entering their prime for more draft picks, hence having a long-term losing culture?

Should Buffalo trade Thompson, Tuch and Dahlin since they are respectively 26, 28 and 24 now?

Should Ottawa move out Tkachuk (turning 25 in a couple of months), Batherson (26) and Chabot (27) now?

Should Utah move Keller & Sergachev now that they are going or are currently 26?

I'm confused what you think I even argued, lol. No they shouldn't trade Suzuki today, the discussion was about how Suzuki's timeline is far off from Demidov and I speculated that long-term (many years form now), Suzuki would be either a veteran presence, or possibly traded. Very few players are "un-tradeable". I did not say they should trade Suzuki today. A lot can change in the future. You're arguing nothing.

 

[Wayfarer13]

Goalies that played a minimum of 500 minutes last year he ranked 34th in that category.( 5 on 5)

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Goalies that played 1000+ minutes, ranked
29th out of 61
1500+ minutes, 20th out of 41 goalies that played that much
if go to 2000+ minutes, not listed.

So looks about middle of the pack on HDSV%, not actually one of the best.

Playing behind the youngest blueline in the league.

 

[norrisnick]

Suzuki represents the oldest piece to the rebuild. It is why I think Montreal will be more aggressive starting next summer when he will be turning 26.

That will be when management's job gets hard because they need to make use of Suzuki's prime time, yet you don't want to get in the way of development for all those players in the pipeline either.

Get ready. Yzerman got shit on all over the internet for making that exact same decision two years ago when Larkin was turning 26. It's not easy to pull a team out of a tailspin. Top shelf FAs don't sign with bottom feeders and to go from bad to competitive you spend some time mediocre.

 

[LordBacon]

I hope I dont piss off anyone but I honestly think Yzerman isnt really that good of a GM.

Every single facet of Red Wings rn just screams mid rn.

 

[centipede2233]

Outside of sakic, former players as GM’s have been underwelming. Sure yzerman did some good work in Tampa, but a no tax team is kinda easy mode. Not doing so hot in Detroit…I’ll take the team run by a guy with a doctor degree from Boston college over a former player (hall of fame or not) with a high school education..

 

[norrisnick]

I hope I dont piss off anyone but I honestly think Yzerman isnt really that good of a GM.

Every single facet of Red Wings rn just screams mid rn.

Mid is a massive improvement from where that team was when he took over.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Im sure you could do better, right?

No... why you are asking?
I am fully aware that being at the helm of a multi millions dollars buisness is hard, that you can't control all factor, and the competiveness nature mean winner and losers.

I can't sing but I can sure know when someone butcher a song..

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I hope I dont piss off anyone but I honestly think Yzerman isnt really that good of a GM.

Every single facet of Red Wings rn just screams mid rn.

Considering he started with top prospects as Zadina and Veleno and hasn't gotten jack shit for luck in the lottery, kinda seems like he's doing pretty well to me.

People can question all day why he signed a bunch of mid players in FA in Summer 22 and Summer 23, but it got the team playing meaningful games this year, which is better than letting your young players fall into a loser mindset, which is what a team like, say, Ottawa, has fallen into.

My biggest issue has been why the f*** did you trade Gibson to dump Walman while still employing Petry and Holl and not doing f*** all to improve your RHD.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Outside of sakic, former players as GM’s have been underwelming. Sure yzerman did some good work in Tampa, but a no tax team is kinda easy mode. Not doing so hot in Detroit…I’ll take the team run by a guy with a doctor degree from Boston college over a former player (hall of fame or not) with a high school education..

The tax advantage may have helped them keep players, but realistically, most of Tampa's talent was either acquired through drafting or trading. They didn't really chase big name UFAs.

 

[centipede2233]

The tax advantage may have helped them keep players, but realistically, most of Tampa's talent was either acquired through drafting or trading. They didn't really chase big name UFAs.

That’s true but it did help with contract negotiations

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

That’s true but it did help with contract negotiations

In all likelihood, yes.

Seider and Raymond's extensions will tell a lot about whether it was Florida taxes or Yzerman.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I’m not a Habs fan, but I have to commend the job they are doing. I think they are going to make waves in the league the next 3-4 years with their rebuild. They might have the best young core in hockey.

Jeff Gorton was doing the same very good work to start out his time with the Rangers, and then the owner got impatient, fired him, and now he’s doing the same things in rebuilding the Habs with the help of Hughes.

The Habs have a lot of pieces of a future Cup contender. Lane Hutson is headed towards being one of the top 10-15 best defensemen in the NHL. He will score points with the best D in the league. It’s a matter of if he can learn to drive defensive results. Time will tell there, but the potential is also there to be one of the best defensemen in the NHL. Demidov looks like a STUD with what he’s doing in the KHL. We knew it before this season. He was a steal of a pick, but he’s proving it now in the KHL. He should become one of the next great Russian wingers in the NHL.

They got a lot of criticism for Slafkovsky, but they’ve hit on the pick. He should be a longtime, very desirable style of first line winger, if not a star. Jacob Fowler is one of the best goaltender prospects in hockey. All he does is put up good save percentages year after year and lead teams to winning hockey. He reminds me a little of Swayman in that he’s an American late birthday that went USHL, didn’t get the NTDP hype, not the biggest showman type goaltender, but he’s consistently very good everywhere he plays.

They also have a lot of young players who are successful, if not better, NHL players and compliment the group well with Caufield, Suzuki, Guhle, Dach. They have other prospects coming too. People make fun of the Reinbacher pick, and I won’t lie and say it’s good, but he’s likely going to have a long NHL career. Successful rebuilds usually miss on a pick or two, and the miss shouldn’t even be that bad. Xhekaj, Xhekaj, Mailloux, Beck, Roy, Engstrom, Barron, Struble, Hage, Konyushkov, Volokhin, Mesar is a deep and talented prospect pool with quality and quantity.

Some of those prospects will hit and they will add to a young core that already has some good established pieces and a few burgeoning stars that are core pieces. They’ll probably get another top 10 pick this year. Possibly even top 5.

Call me overly optimistic, but I repeat that I’m not a Habs fan. Looking at things from afar, I think this team is set up to become a juggernaut in the NHL within the next five years.

 

[neelynugs]

hopefully, sir...you are wrong

 

[MNRube]

They do have an undeniably loaded group of U25 roster players and prospects.

I prefer the rebuilds occurring in Anaheim and San Jose because they have more quality up the middle but Montreal looks great too. Their blueline has the potential to be the highest scoring in the NHL in a few years

 

[majormajor]

Not every rebuilding club has a very good top line like the Habs have. And they've got Hutson and Guhle on D. It's a good group of 5 young players. After that the current level drops off significantly (on the NHL club). Demidov will help a lot and then maybe one or two of the depth prospects will pop. Reinbacher should be a solid top 4 guy if he can be healthy. Dach might be fine if healthy. After that I see more quantity than quality.

Rebuilds don't need every 23 man position filled with young players. They're better off not doing that actually! Having a few young guys really pop would be more meaningful. The team looks like it could take a step right now, but the shortfall seems more to be in the veterans. The team does not defend well.

Dach is a good talent but I think the Habs would be better positioned to take a step if they acquire a strong veteran 2C who can play harder minutes for them. I'm thinking about what Kadri did in Colorado, Bennett in Florida, Trocheck right now in New York. Trying to fill every key role with young players is a mistake. It should be mixed.

 

[Juxtaposer]

There's a lot of young talent on that team and they should be very good for a long while. But I don't tend to love teams who are built from the wing--Slafkovsky and Demidov are the only guys with star potential in their org and I don't see a legit #1D amongst their prospects. When was the last time a team won a Cup with neither a star #1C nor a legit #1D? I personally think that a defense can be built to perform #1D duties by committee with the right combination of skill sets and I could see the Habs D shaking out that way (Guhle as the high-end shutdown D, Hutson as the elite PPQB, and Reinbacher as the steady minute-eater), but without a center better than Suzuki (who is a low-end #1C), where is the star power at premium positions?