Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?

[WarriorofTime]

Why would Suzuki be a trade piece? He's 24 years old, coming off a 77 points season and is still signed for 7 more years at 7.8M.

Bingo

 

[Baksfamous112]

Bingo

How does that help Montreal to get out of their rebuild unless you think they should be in a perpetual rebuild like Arizona was for over a decade?

 

[WarriorofTime]

How does that help Montreal to get out of their rebuild unless you think they should be in a perpetual rebuild like Arizona was for over a decade?

It's all about timelines. Anyways, I gave two potential outcomes. Either works.

 

[Baksfamous112]

It's all about timelines. Anyways, I gave two potential outcomes. Either works.

Right. So trade Vlasic for a draft pick asap. He’s not in Chicago’s timeline

 

[WarriorofTime]

Right. So trade Vlasic for a draft pick asap. He’s not in Chicago’s timeline

Suzuki and Vlasic are two years apart, so let's re-visit that topic in two years.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Suzuki and Vlasic are two years apart, so let's re-visit that topic in two years.

But Chicago is at least two years behind Montreal in their rebuild. You currently have one high-end forward with two maybe 3 forwards with top 6 potential which will likely settle as top 9 forwards if they make it. You have two high-end D and a #4 and no goalie whatsoever in the pipeline.

Most of these guys are also under 20 aside from Vlasic, so there will be at least another 3-4 years of growing pain unless your GM is dumb enough to try to patch holes here and there which I doubt he is. He literally traded anyone who had a positive value two years ago.

 

[WarriorofTime]

But Chicago is at least two years behind Montreal in their rebuild. You currently have one high-end forward with two maybe 3 forwards with top 6 potential which will likely settle as top 9 forwards if they make it. You have two high-end D and a #4 and no goalie whatsoever in the pipeline.

Most of these guys are also under 20 aside from Vlasic, so there will be at least another 3-4 years of growing pain unless your GM is dumb enough to try to patch holes here and there which I doubt he is. He literally traded anyone who had a positive value two years ago.

I'm not sure what you're arguing. The Blackhawks aren't the topic here and you're making a non-analogous comparison. Vlasic wouldn't return that much in a trade at the moment because he probably isn't actively sought out by Contenders. Perhaps in two years time though, at which point the Hawks will see where they are.

 

[Imgoingtowork]

Montreal have more talent, but Detroit have more grade.

 

[Baksfamous112]

I'm not sure what you're arguing. The Blackhawks aren't the topic here and you're making a non-analogous comparison. Vlasic wouldn't return that much in a trade at the moment because he probably isn't actively sought out by Contenders. Perhaps in two years time though, at which point the Hawks will see where they are.

I was trying to assess your logic and if, in a different scenario (In this case your team) would change or not.

So, if I understand properly, if you feel like your team wouldn't be a contender or at least a pretender by the time Vlasic (or any other prospects) hit 25 then he's a goner.. for draft picks? Wouldn't that eventually bring a never-ending cycle of developing prospects to dump them to contenders as soon as they get close to entering their prime for more draft picks, hence having a long-term losing culture?

Should Buffalo trade Thompson, Tuch and Dahlin since they are respectively 26, 28 and 24 now?

Should Ottawa move out Tkachuk (turning 25 in a couple of months), Batherson (26) and Chabot (27) now?

Should Utah move Keller & Sergachev now that they are going or are currently 26?

 

[WarriorofTime]

I was trying to assess your logic and if, in a different scenario (In this case your team) would change or not.

So, if I understand properly, if you feel like your team wouldn't be a contender or at least a pretender by the time Vlasic (or any other prospects) hit 25 then he's a goner.. for draft picks? Wouldn't that eventually bring a never-ending cycle of developing prospects to dump them to contenders as soon as they get close to entering their prime for more draft picks, hence having a long-term losing culture?

Should Buffalo trade Thompson, Tuch and Dahlin since they are respectively 26, 28 and 24 now?

Should Ottawa move out Tkachuk (turning 25 in a couple of months), Batherson (26) and Chabot (27) now?

Should Utah move Keller & Sergachev now that they are going or are currently 26?

I'm confused what you think I even argued, lol. No they shouldn't trade Suzuki today, the discussion was about how Suzuki's timeline is far off from Demidov and I speculated that long-term (many years form now), Suzuki would be either a veteran presence, or possibly traded. Very few players are "un-tradeable". I did not say they should trade Suzuki today. A lot can change in the future. You're arguing nothing.

 

[Wayfarer13]

Goalies that played a minimum of 500 minutes last year he ranked 34th in that category.( 5 on 5)

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Goalies that played 1000+ minutes, ranked
29th out of 61
1500+ minutes, 20th out of 41 goalies that played that much
if go to 2000+ minutes, not listed.

So looks about middle of the pack on HDSV%, not actually one of the best.

Playing behind the youngest blueline in the league.

 

[norrisnick]

Suzuki represents the oldest piece to the rebuild. It is why I think Montreal will be more aggressive starting next summer when he will be turning 26.

That will be when management's job gets hard because they need to make use of Suzuki's prime time, yet you don't want to get in the way of development for all those players in the pipeline either.

Get ready. Yzerman got shit on all over the internet for making that exact same decision two years ago when Larkin was turning 26. It's not easy to pull a team out of a tailspin. Top shelf FAs don't sign with bottom feeders and to go from bad to competitive you spend some time mediocre.

 

[LordBacon]

I hope I dont piss off anyone but I honestly think Yzerman isnt really that good of a GM.

Every single facet of Red Wings rn just screams mid rn.

 

[centipede2233]

Outside of sakic, former players as GM’s have been underwelming. Sure yzerman did some good work in Tampa, but a no tax team is kinda easy mode. Not doing so hot in Detroit…I’ll take the team run by a guy with a doctor degree from Boston college over a former player (hall of fame or not) with a high school education..

 

[norrisnick]

I hope I dont piss off anyone but I honestly think Yzerman isnt really that good of a GM.

Every single facet of Red Wings rn just screams mid rn.

Mid is a massive improvement from where that team was when he took over.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Im sure you could do better, right?

No... why you are asking?
I am fully aware that being at the helm of a multi millions dollars buisness is hard, that you can't control all factor, and the competiveness nature mean winner and losers.

I can't sing but I can sure know when someone butcher a song..

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I hope I dont piss off anyone but I honestly think Yzerman isnt really that good of a GM.

Every single facet of Red Wings rn just screams mid rn.

Considering he started with top prospects as Zadina and Veleno and hasn't gotten jack shit for luck in the lottery, kinda seems like he's doing pretty well to me.

People can question all day why he signed a bunch of mid players in FA in Summer 22 and Summer 23, but it got the team playing meaningful games this year, which is better than letting your young players fall into a loser mindset, which is what a team like, say, Ottawa, has fallen into.

My biggest issue has been why the f*** did you trade Gibson to dump Walman while still employing Petry and Holl and not doing f*** all to improve your RHD.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Outside of sakic, former players as GM’s have been underwelming. Sure yzerman did some good work in Tampa, but a no tax team is kinda easy mode. Not doing so hot in Detroit…I’ll take the team run by a guy with a doctor degree from Boston college over a former player (hall of fame or not) with a high school education..

The tax advantage may have helped them keep players, but realistically, most of Tampa's talent was either acquired through drafting or trading. They didn't really chase big name UFAs.

 

[centipede2233]

The tax advantage may have helped them keep players, but realistically, most of Tampa's talent was either acquired through drafting or trading. They didn't really chase big name UFAs.

That’s true but it did help with contract negotiations

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

That’s true but it did help with contract negotiations

In all likelihood, yes.

Seider and Raymond's extensions will tell a lot about whether it was Florida taxes or Yzerman.