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Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?

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rahad said:
LOL! A Florida fan calling our SCF a Fluke.... Yet Florida making the playoff in 2023 and beating Buffalo and Pittsburgh by ONLY 1 POINTS IS OKAY? ONE SINGLE POINT.

92 PTS VS 91 FOR (BUFF AND PITTS)
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yes the fluky panthers coming off the presidents trophy the year before had a very odd season where their underlying numbers were top 5 in the NHL all season but had bottom 5 in the NHL shooting results went on a playoff run when their shooting regressed to the mean. That same fluky team was immediately back in the presidents trophy conversation a year later. Completely the same as the Habs.
 
Stewie Griffin said:
The whole season was weird though. Each team didn't play any other teams outside their division until the 3rd round of the playoffs. That alone makes making the playoffs and getting to the 3rd round "different" as you didn't get to play 3/4 of the entire league.

Obviously yes you still had to win those games/series...but in a normal year, do they make the playoffs? Do they get past teams from other divisions? Who knows.
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All speculation on what would have happened if the season was "normal". The season was the same for everyone, normal or not. Habs got past the Leafs, Jets and Vegas in the playoffs. That counts for something.

My last thoughts on it....there were many underrated players on that Habs team. We were deep. No obvious superstars beyond Price, but a deep team.

Guys that were underrated on forward that played a huge role in our success.....

Danault - moved on and is getting earned recognition in LA. One of the best shut down centres in the league...at least at that time.

Lehky - couldn't hit the net to save his life that year....but again, a top 6er with the Avs now. Sneaky good and unappreciated when with us.

Suzuki - was just starting to shine that year. 41 pts in 56 games

Tofu - 28 goals in shortened season. Probably would have hit 40 over a full season that year.

Tuna - played a very consistent two way game that year. Was near his peak

Perry - Timely goals, veteran leadership. Still valued for just that, 3 years later.

Caufield - hit the ground running with an absolute electric playoff run

Defence was completely underrated

Weber - in the twilight of his career, still had the ability to score from the back end, and was a monster clearing the net

Petry - was at his peak

Eddie, Chia, Kulak - all valuable veteran defenders who could bang in the corners and push scoring chances to the outside.

And of course.....

Price - The single most underrated position in hockey. "Well if you didn't have Price" blah blah blah, we have heard it all. Fact is, we did have Price. We drafted him with a very high pick. And while, he wasn't at his peak in terms of career trajectory, he was at his best during that playoff run.

Sooooooooooo.......

There was no fluke. This was a team that was sneaky deep and sneaky good. A superstar goalie. An above average defense. And forwards that today....are finally getting recognition for how good they are.
 
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Beezeral said:
yes the fluky panthers coming off the presidents trophy the year before had a very odd season where their underlying numbers were top 5 in the NHL all season but had bottom 5 in the NHL shooting results went on a playoff run when their shooting regressed to the mean. That same fluky team was immediately back in the presidents trophy conversation a year later. Completely the same as the Habs.
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Florida was a bottom-10 team through half the season until they went on a unprecedented run to the SCF. Other than last season, they haven't won a single game beyond the 1st round in ages. So yes - if we're making up definitions of "Fluke", Florida's track-record and most of 2023 makes their SCF run a total fluke.

See how easy that is? If you're motivated to connect a bunch of dots, anything unexpected can be dismissed as lucky. For the record, I still think "Fluke" is a useless term. It should be reserved for the puck bouncing off the ref's ass into the net.
 
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Lshap said:
Florida was a bottom-10 team through half the season until they went on a unprecedented run to the SCF. Other than last season, they haven't won a single game beyond the 1st round in ages. So yes - if we're making up definitions of "Fluke", Florida's track-record and most of 2023 makes their SCF run a total fluke.

See how easy that is? If you're motivated to connect a bunch of dots, anything unexpected can be dismissed as lucky. For the record, I still think "Fluke" is a useless term. It should be reserved for the puck bouncing off the ref's ass into the net.
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Tell me you either don't understand or don't believe in analytics without telling me you don't understand or believe in analytics.
 
GIN ANTONIC said:
Can I vote neither? Both teams have some good pieces but overall their 'cores' are kind of uninspiring. Like I don't think either team is primed to become a top 10 team in the league based on the blueprints they are working off right now. Montreal has more of a clean slate and more time to work on it but are missing a number of foundational pieces. The defence and goaltending is very weak and outside of 3 forwards they don't have a lot to get excited about. Need some of these recent higher picks to pan out in the next few years to have a better outlook on things.

Detroit is further along and on the playoff bubble in a very top heavy, but overall lackluster eastern conference. They need a homerun or two in order to get into the next level.
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Montreal's rebuild isn't done. It sounds like management is expecting a bit of pain next year as well, but they're not ready to compete until at least the 25-26 season, so thet have time to build.

Their d are either not playing in the NHL yet, or are in their 2nd season for the most part.

Their goaltending is on par with Kochetkov from Carolina, but Primeau and Monty play on an inferior team and had a terrible 3 goalie carousel going on. They also have 2 fairly good looking prospects.

We won't see what the core they're tying to build can do for a few years, so saying "they're not good" seems fairly shortsighted.

I'm sure a Detroit fan can tell more about their prospects. I'm assuming Detroit try to go and be competitive earlier than they should have based on their ufa signings last offseason.
 
Beezeral said:
yes the fluky panthers coming off the presidents trophy the year before had a very odd season where their underlying numbers were top 5 in the NHL all season but had bottom 5 in the NHL shooting results went on a playoff run when their shooting regressed to the mean. That same fluky team was immediately back in the presidents trophy conversation a year later. Completely the same as the Habs.
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Sure buddy! I'm sure the team with only one playoff win in the last 20 years making it to the SCF has not a fluke.

Made the playoff 5 times in the last 10 years. Won 4 round (3 in 2023 and 1 in 2022) in the last 20 years+....Sure no fluke.

SO IF YOU IGNORE THE SEASON OF 2022. THE LAST TIME PANTHERS WON A PLAYOFF ROUND HAS IN 1996.

champsorchumps.us

Florida Panthers Playoff History | 1994 - 2025

Explore and research every single postseason result from all 31 seasons in franchise history.
champsorchumps.us champsorchumps.us
 
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Gaylord Q Tinkledink said:
Montreal's rebuild isn't done. It sounds like management is expecting a bit of pain next year as well, but they're not ready to compete until at least the 25-26 season, so thet have time to build.

Their d are either not playing in the NHL yet, or are in their 2nd season for the most part.

Their goaltending is on par with Kochetkov from Carolina, but Primeau and Monty play on an inferior team and had a terrible 3 goalie carousel going on. They also have 2 fairly good looking prospects.

We won't see what the core they're tying to build can do for a few years, so saying "they're not good" seems fairly shortsighted.

I'm sure a Detroit fan can tell more about their prospects. I'm assuming Detroit try to go and be competitive earlier than they should have based on their ufa signings last offseason.
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I never stated their rebuild was done and obviously they have a number of young pieces that we havent seen how they will be at the NHL level. It’s early for them but my point is that on both Detroit and Montreal they lack the high end pieces. At least from what we can see right now.

Primeau is having a good year in a small sample size but he’s the same age as Kochetkov and proven far less overall with some really bad numbers until now. He and Monty aren’t on the same level player development and Pyotr. He has steadily improved every year posting better numbers with more playing time.

He looks very primed to take over the starter role in the next year or two. You can’t say the same at all for the Montreal goalies.
 
rahad said:
Sure buddy! I'm sure the team with only one playoff win in the last 20 years making it to the SCF has not a fluke.

Made the playoff 5 times in the last 10 years. Won 4 round (3 in 2023 and 1 in 2022) in the last 20 years+....Sure no fluke.

SO IF YOU IGNORE THE SEASON OF 2022. THE LAST TIME PANTHERS WON A PLAYOFF ROUND HAS IN 1996.

champsorchumps.us

Florida Panthers Playoff History | 1994 - 2025

Explore and research every single postseason result from all 31 seasons in franchise history.
champsorchumps.us champsorchumps.us
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so 20 years ago is relevant to how a team is performing now in what way?
 
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waitin425 said:
My last thoughts on it....there were many underrated players on that Habs team. We were deep. No obvious superstars beyond Price, but a deep team.

Guys that were underrated on forward that played a huge role in our success.....

Danault - moved on and is getting earned recognition in LA. One of the best shut down centres in the league...at least at that time.

Lehky - couldn't hit the net to save his life that year....but again, a top 6er with the Avs now. Sneaky good and unappreciated when with us.

Suzuki - was just starting to shine that year. 41 pts in 56 games

Tofu - 28 goals in shortened season. Probably would have hit 40 over a full season that year.

Tuna - played a very consistent two way game that year. Was near his peak

Perry - Timely goals, veteran leadership. Still valued for just that, 3 years later.

Caufield - hit the ground running with an absolute electric playoff run

Defence was completely underrated

Weber - in the twilight of his career, still had the ability to score from the back end, and was a monster clearing the net

Petry - was at his peak

Eddie, Chia, Kulak - all valuable veteran defenders who could bang in the corners and push scoring chances to the outside.

And of course.....

Price - The single most underrated position in hockey. "Well if you didn't have Price" blah blah blah, we have heard it all. Fact is, we did have Price. We drafted him with a very high pick. And while, he wasn't at his peak in terms of career trajectory, he was at his best during that playoff run.
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Man, it looks even more mediocre when it gets spelled out like that. The pet names that we're supposed to implicitly understand like they're our buddies make it kinda hard to follow though. I was half expecting this to show up somewhere in there

p12-usc-bronny-james-graphic-1024x551.jpg
 
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ZDH said:
Would I do a prospect swap with Montreal?

Hell f***ing no, it's not even close.

So Detroit is my biased answer.
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I think that purely looking at "prospects" is an overly simplified view. If you include NHL players 23 and under (or 25 and under if you'd rather) it seems that MON would have a slight edge, but YMMV. At this point - still too close to call IMO.
 
Beukeboom Fan said:
I think that purely looking at "prospects" is an overly simplified view. If you include NHL players 23 and under (or 25 and under if you'd rather) it seems that MON would have a slight edge, but YMMV. At this point - still too close to call IMO.
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I don't know about that. Seider and Raymond are probably #1 and #2 in such a ranking. Edvinsson, Sandin Pellikka and Danielson don't rank very low either.
 
Pavels Dog said:
I don't know about that. Seider and Raymond are probably #1 and #2 in such a ranking. Edvinsson, Sandin Pellikka and Danielson don't rank very low either.
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Agree that Mo is definitely #1, but I'd potentially put Suzuki, Caufield, & Slafkovsky all in/around the same tier as Raymond. (And if you have Suzuki/Caufield off that list of players because they're 23/24, I understand that as well.)

Not an expert on either team. Just know that there were a bunch of young d-men on the Habs I saw in NHL games early in the year who looked pretty damn good.
 
Considering the stage of their rebuilds, Habs, maybe with slight edge.

Wings have some nice young roster players, and a good prospect pool but need young game breaking talent.

Seider has proven he’s the real deal as a 1D this season, and Raymond has emerged. Are they game breakers though, or high end pieces?

For the Habs I’d argue Caufield and Slafkovsky have that potential.
 
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HockeyWooot said:
Wings have some nice young roster players, and a good prospect pool but need young game breaking talent.

Seider has proven he’s the real deal as a 1D this season, and Raymond has emerged. Are they game breakers though, or high end pieces?
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Raymond just turned 22 like 3 weeks ago and leads the Red Wings in scoring with 31G and 71 points.
He had a game tying goal tonight and then the OT winner. he also had a hat trick last week. He's been the best wing player on the ice most nights. I'm leaning towards game breaker.
 
HockeyWooot said:
Considering the stage of their rebuilds, Habs, maybe with slight edge.

Wings have some nice young roster players, and a good prospect pool but need young game breaking talent.

Seider has proven he’s the real deal as a 1D this season, and Raymond has emerged. Are they game breakers though, or high end pieces?

For the Habs I’d argue Caufield and Slafkovsky have that potential.
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Young game breaking talent is a need for both franchises, but Raymond is both younger and better than Caufield, Seider is a lot more valuable than Slafkovsky. I don't think any team would take the Habs duo over the Wings duo
 
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It's not a fair question imo. Habs we're not ever rebuilding in the Price era. The few high picks they had in that time were squandered and the focus was always on the next season.

Bergevin was fired less than 2.5 years ago. Detroit is further along than Montreal, but I'm not sure that necessarily means they will have more success in the end.
 
Would like to bump this thread after this year's draft.

I think the addition of Demidov and Hage to Habs prospect pool might have change my opinion (I would have gone Detroit pre-draft).

At the D+5 of the Yzerplan, Detroit still managed to miss the playoff (albeit they were close to get in).

I think with the current states of affairs, by 2026-2027 (D+5 of the HuGo plan) the Habs will be a regular playoff team.

The core will have matured. Suzuki will be 27, Caufield 26, Dach 26, Ghule 25 will all be in their prime.

Slafkovsky will be 23 years old, most likely entering his offensive prime. Demidov will be in NA, 21 years old of age we can imagine will be able to play a signifiant role with the team.

Then you have guy like Reinbacher, Mailloux, Hutson at the blue line who should be regular, at least 2 out of 3 of these guy being solid top 4 defenseman should be a reasonable guess.

Some bad contract of the book like Dvorak, Armia and Savard could help us sign a big fish on the UFA market, or at least use the cap flexibility to acquire useful assets at TDL to help for a push.
 
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ZDH said:
Would I do a prospect swap with Montreal?

Hell f***ing no, it's not even close.

So Detroit is my biased answer.
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Sounds like how Montreal would feel now. No chance I'm changing rosters and prospects with Detroit. Nothing against Detroit, but I love how the Habs are building their group.
 
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