Where would you rather the Montreal Canadiens finish this year?

[jaffy27]

If you aren't into 1st round eliminations, I have great news! Finishing low, which is what you suggest, over the ten-year period from 2006-2015 has only resulted in ONE team going from, for example, second-to-last into a playoff spot. The other nine teams were still enjoying the bottom of the standings four years later! Enough to warm the heart!!

That’s great......Habs have done jack shit in the last 25yrs and have never tanked for a 2-3yr period......lots of 25th overall picks in there that have amounted to....well.....jack shit

It hasn’t worked the othe way, I’m ready to try something new, you know, like tank two years in a row.

I’m going to battle with Kotka and Cozens at centre for the next 10yrs....you do whatever

 

[DAChampion]

It's been 9 and 10 years since Stamkos and Hedman were drafted. That's a long time. In fact, they still sucked in 2013 4-5 years later, and got another #3 in Drouin

Besides Winnipeg, Toronto and Tampa Bay, what about

• Islanders (Tavares already gone to UFA)
• Colorado (3 top-3 picks and still suck)
• Edmonton (5 top-3 picks and still suck)
• Florida (4 top-3 picks and still nowhere good)
• Buffalo (3 top-3 picks and still not clear if they are going to get there)
• Montreal (2 top-3 picks and still not clear if they are going to get there)
• Arizona
• Columbus
• New Jersey
• Philadelphia
• Dallas
• Carolina

What is the percentage of contending teams here?

I can't tell if you made an actual list or if you just cherry picked supporting examples.

Columbus for example, was not actually tanking and rebuilding. They were failing, that's not the same thing. They were always trying to make the playoffs with Rick Nash, up and until they traded Rick Nash for futures. Since that time, they are a bubble team rather than a lottery team. Same as the Islanders, who tried to win with Tavares.

Dallas is following your model of trying to win by signing a lot of free agents and making a lot of good trades rather than tanking. They have 8 wins in 13 games, which is pretty good, but they play in the toughest division in hockey. They might actually be a great supportive argument for your position if they played in an easier division, like the Atlantic.

Arizona has a low budget. They have 12 million in available cap space -- no, they're not going to win the Cup. That said, things might be looking up for them. They have 7 wins in 12 games.

etc.

 

[DAChampion]

So, if there's any definitive statement about drafting outside of the 1st today, it's that it's either the same or easier than it has proven to be in the past. And that is thanks to a host of other factors that we don't need to get into.

Yeah good job:
- Look at recent results,
- Ignore past results
Then: "if there's any definitive statement about recent results, it's that it's either the same or better than past results."

 

[Kriss E]

Let's just say we finish 30th this year and we pick 2nd. Are you gonna know what exactly you have come October 2019? So according to your reasoning, we don't know what we have in Kotkaniemi and we don't know what we have in that fantasy #2 we're getting in 2019 so we'll need to tank again in the 2019-2020 season. I guess we'll keep tanking until we know what we have. It could be 2 years or it could be 4. What astounds me about this logic is that

1) it's a loser's mentality
2) you really think you can gut a team - this team the way it's built right now - and believe you'll come out alright at the other end of 2, 3, 4 years of tanking. I'm just incredulous.

You tank until you feel you have enough assets to build a contender, ya.

You seem to have this dramatic idea of what tanking is. Weber hasn't played a game yet and we seem to be doing perfectly fine. Would trading him make us worse?
What is tanking about? Essentially, it's about getting one or multiple high end talent prospects. If we can move 1-2 guys in order to get some while still not bottoming out, like we did with Patches, then great.

What I mean by tanking is we should sell some assets. Wherever we end up in the standings is out of control.
I'm not suggesting we trade Drouin for picks, and bench Domi+Gallagher here.

But I do not believe this current version of Habs have anywhere near enough talent to even think of being a contender. So we need some talent. If that's via trade, so be it. We need more young high end talent.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not sure we have so many years anymore. Look at Toronto, in cap hell because of expiring ELCs!!! That was not the case ten years ago.

And if Toronto isn't winning with their talent...forget about us, so really, it doesn't matter.
We need to add more of it.

 

[montreal]

I have come to realize that the long multi-year buildup doesn't work anymore because the ELC's are over so fast. Not only is Toronto in cap hell, but heck even Edmonton ran into an issue with both McDavid and Draisatl.

Rebuilds today have to be fast, with pace, so to speak!

And I just don't trust the IdiotGM (TM) to get it done properly. So I'm worried.

I so badly want MB fired as I just can't trust him no matter how good this team plays and I admit he's made some good moves but I just don't trust him to do the right thing. The leafs, Oilers, this is where you need a smart GM. The leafs have all that offense, weak defense, so trade Nylander or Marner, get a top youngish D and a 1st or 2nd to help the farm system. Balance out that lineup and who knows how far they can go. Oilers have just been so poorly run imo.

 

[BaseballCoach]

That’s great......Habs have done jack **** in the last 25yrs and have never tanked for a 2-3yr period......lots of 25th overall picks in there that have amounted to....well.....jack ****

It hasn’t worked the othe way, I’m ready to try something new, you know, like tank two years in a row.

I’m going to battle with Kotka and Cozens at centre for the next 10yrs....you do whatever

Just trying to understand what you're saying - is it that adding Cozens to the team we have now including Kotkaniemi will get us to be a contender?

 

[jaffy27]

Just trying to understand what you're saying - is it that adding Cozens to the team we have now including Kotkaniemi will get us to be a contender?

Adding Cozens would go a long way to giving us a better chance......so yes, he would be a key piece to our future success

 

[BaseballCoach]

I can't tell if you made an actual list or if you just cherry picked supporting examples.

I don't cherry pick. If I look at a set of data, it's all the data. In this case it was every top-3 player drafted by other than the three teams you mentioned already.

 

[BaseballCoach]

That would be the first step....yes.

How do you get the rest of the steps done, and what are they?

 

[jaffy27]

How do you get the rest of the steps done, and what are they?

You’re not interested in my thoughts, you just want to argue.

You’ll tell me on how it’s impossible or that team will never take this player or he’ll never sign here.

I’m building through the draft....most of the pieces are in place. A scoring winger and a top end LHD is what I’m looking for next

 

[BaseballCoach]

You’re not interested in my thoughts, you just want to argue.

You’ll tell me on how it’s impossible or that team will never take this player or he’ll never sign here.

I’m building through the draft....most of the pieces are in place. A scoring winger and a top end LHD is what I’m looking for next

What rank would Cozens be drafted at?

 

[jaffy27]

What rank would Cozens be drafted at?

3-4......Dach is another player I’m good with

 

[BaseballCoach]

3-4......Dach is another player I’m good with

Are you suggesting with the team we have, we will finish about 3rd or 4th to last?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Are you suggesting with the team we have, we will finish about 3rd or 4th to last?

I think your obsession completely blinds you to the obvious fact that the OP asked the question "where would you rather have the Canadiens finish this year" and Jaffy was simply answering that question.

You might not realize this, but nobody seems in a hurry to fall in line with your precious take on reality regarding tanking.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I think your obsession completely blinds you to the obvious fact that the OP asked the question "where would you rather have the Canadiens finish this year" and Jaffy was simply answering that question.

You might not realize this, but nobody seems in a hurry to fall in line with your precious take on reality regarding tanking.

There are many of us discussing things in this thread. You could say that we're all "obsessed" if we are doing this instead of work, family and social life, but here we are.

Rather than assume people who disagree with me are evil members of a hostile cabal, and acting accordingly, I prefer to understand what they are saying.

If Jaffy27 is willing to engage, we might find some more understanding. Is there a way you could be helpful to this process?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

There are many of us discussing things in this thread. You could say that we're all "obsessed" if we are doing this instead of work, family and social life, but here we are.

Rather than assume people who disagree with me are evil members of a hostile cabal, and acting accordingly, I prefer to understand what they are saying.

If Jaffy27 is willing to engage, we might find some more understanding. Is there a way you could be helpful to this process?

I was helpful, I pointed out the incredibly obvious fact that Jaffy was answering the OP, not stating that's where he believes they'll end-up, like you presumed, but rather where he -wishes- they'll end-up, but you're so focused on trying to force down your vision about the sins of tanking down anybody's throat that you simply ignored it.

 

[Kriss E]

Are you suggesting with the team we have, we will finish about 3rd or 4th to last?

Whether we finish bottom 3rd or not is irrelevant. Point is this is what we should be gunning for.
That should be the strategy. We should be drafting at least top 5 again. That would be the ideal thing to do.
Now, are the habs bad enough to get there? Well right now it doesn't appear as such, and that's why we should be all over Buffalo and Colorado. If we can trade them Weber, or Price, or Petry+Byron+1st for Ottawa's 1st from Colorado or Stl's from Buffalo...then we could end up with a very high pick without bottoming out.
That would be ideal to me. I don't care if it costs us extra spots in the current standings.
Focus should be adding top end talent, in any way possible.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I was helpful, I pointed out the incredibly obvious fact that Jaffy was answering the OP, not stating that's where he believes they'll end-up, like you presumed, but rather where he -wishes- they'll end-up, but you're so focused on trying to force down your vision about the sins of tanking down anybody's throat that you simply ignored it.

Don't assume what I am thinking. What I'm trying to understand is the reasoning behind PREFERRING to finish bottom 5 to finishing in the playoffs. JAffy27 offered the idea that if we finish bottom 3 or 4 we can get Cozens or Dach. But he also added that this would be just a start, and that other moves would be needed, it seems to get a LHD and another scoring winger in his opinion.

Now I don't know any teams that are 70 point calibre that only need a LHD, a scoring winger and a top-6 center (Cozens or Dach) to become a contender. In my experience, teams taht are at 70 pioints are missing about 7-8 pieces.

So I think that it is unrealistic to think this is a bad 70 point team but that adding Dach or Cozens plus a scoring winger and a LHD will make them a contender. Being a 70 point bottom-5 team will probably mean that there are more holes, and that the guys we have in place don't fill them.

But let's let Jaffy27 speak for himself. I might learn something and that's fine.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Whether we finish bottom 3rd or not is irrelevant. Point is this is what we should be gunning for.
That should be the strategy. We should be drafting at least top 5 again. That would be the ideal thing to do.
Now, are the habs bad enough to get there? Well right now it doesn't appear as such, and that's why we should be all over Buffalo and Colorado. If we can trade them Weber, or Price, or Petry+Byron+1st for Ottawa's 1st from Colorado or Stl's from Buffalo...then we could end up with a very high pick without bottoming out.
That would be ideal to me. I don't care if it costs us extra spots in the current standings.
Focus should be adding top end talent, in any way possible.

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. I tend to agree with you that we may not finish bottom 5 ourselves so trying to pry a top pick away from the worst teams might be necessary if a high pick is the goal. If so, then we would have to evaluate whether the price asked for moving up in the draft is worth it. For that, we would need an actual offer to evaluate.

 

[jaffy27]

Are you suggesting with the team we have, we will finish about 3rd or 4th to last?

Nope, I’m just answering the question to the poll.....or did you forget about that??

I’m sure you did since your asking me questions as though I thought we’d actually be finishing last.

 

[jaffy27]

I think your obsession completely blinds you to the obvious fact that the OP asked the question "where would you rather have the Canadiens finish this year" and Jaffy was simply answering that question.

You might not realize this, but nobody seems in a hurry to fall in line with your precious take on reality regarding tanking.

thanks.....I knew exactly where that one was going

 

[Kriss E]

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. I tend to agree with you that we may not finish bottom 5 ourselves so trying to pry a top pick away from the worst teams might be necessary if a high pick is the goal. If so, then we would have to evaluate whether the price asked for moving up in the draft is worth it. For that, we would need an actual offer to evaluate.

I don't like to participate in these fictional trade proposals. All I know is I'm willing to offer pretty much anything. We don't have enough talent, let's stop pretending like it's okay and we can just patiently wait for the perfect offer or free agent. It won't happen, and then it'll be too late. That's what happened when Bergevin took over. Didn't want to overpay for free agents, didn't want to give out youngsters or picks for trades.
We are in a good position to dangle some guys now. We are doing fine without Weber. He could be valuable to move. Price is doing well too, I'm sure some teams could be desperate for him. Buffalo could be great fit, same with Colorado. If Avs could add Price without giving up one of their current key skates, would be huge for them.
If not those two, we could totally package Petry and Byron +picks.

If not, then we could move a guy like Poehling that is an interesting prospect + picks.

Needless to say, we have assets to move. We do not have to tank to add high end talent. But if we're not going to sell, or buy, just twiddle our thumbs, it's going to lead to nowhere again.

 

[Kriss E]

Don't assume what I am thinking. What I'm trying to understand is the reasoning behind PREFERRING to finish bottom 5 to finishing in the playoffs. JAffy27 offered the idea that if we finish bottom 3 or 4 we can get Cozens or Dach. But he also added that this would be just a start, and that other moves would be needed, it seems to get a LHD and another scoring winger in his opinion.

Now I don't know any teams that are 70 point calibre that only need a LHD, a scoring winger and a top-6 center (Cozens or Dach) to become a contender. In my experience, teams taht are at 70 pioints are missing about 7-8 pieces.

So I think that it is unrealistic to think this is a bad 70 point team but that adding Dach or Cozens plus a scoring winger and a LHD will make them a contender. Being a 70 point bottom-5 team will probably mean that there are more holes, and that the guys we have in place don't fill them.

But let's let Jaffy27 speak for himself. I might learn something I don't already know.

That's because you generalize. Generally speaking, bottom 5th teams also don't bounce back to be a top team in their conference the next year. Yet, here we are, and this is the 2nd time it's happened to us in the span of 6 years.
In 2012, finish 28th. In 2013, 2nd in conference.
In 2018, finish 28th. Presently tied 2nd in conference.
You could also point to our 22nd spot finish in 2016...only to bounce back to win the division and finish 4th in conference in 2017.

So ya, maybe it's not as uncommon as you think. It's certainly been done before.

Also, this idea that any team finishing with about 70pts needs more than half of its dressed roster changed is crazy.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Don't assume what I am thinking. What I'm trying to understand is the reasoning behind PREFERRING to finish bottom 5 to finishing in the playoffs. JAffy27 offered the idea that if we finish bottom 3 or 4 we can get Cozens or Dach. But he also added that this would be just a start, and that other moves would be needed, it seems to get a LHD and another scoring winger in his opinion.

Now I don't know any teams that are 70 point calibre that only need a LHD, a scoring winger and a top-6 center (Cozens or Dach) to become a contender. In my experience, teams taht are at 70 pioints are missing about 7-8 pieces.

So I think that it is unrealistic to think this is a bad 70 point team but that adding Dach or Cozens plus a scoring winger and a LHD will make them a contender. Being a 70 point bottom-5 team will probably mean that there are more holes, and that the guys we have in place don't fill them.

But let's let Jaffy27 speak for himself. I might learn something I don't already know.

I mean... reading all the responses you've got on this thread, that reasoning has been totally elaborated upon, you probably should get it by now.

I take it back. You're not obsessed, not one bit. No sir-ee.

As for Jaffy, seems I was right, he was simply answering the OP, but keep fishing. Maybe one day, we'll all be converted to your way of thinking, we'll all cherish hard-working upstarts that lose with dignity in the first round and everything will fall in line for Molson as we'll all be sheepishly buying into the great plan of always making the playoffs. It's such an original solution. Like we haven't tried that one over the last 25 years.