Where would you rather the Montreal Canadiens finish this year?

[montreal]

And this is what I find the weakest part of the argument from the pro tanking posters. You make vague suggestions and never specify exactly what assets you want to trade away and what assets you think you're going to get. It's just a vague fog of reckless hope.

After Petry who is next on the trading block? I see you have an etc. Byron? Tatar? Does it stop there or do you continue? And if you continue are you punching holes in your ship or are you really building? Also, who is going to trade for a Petry, Byron or Tatar. Obviously not a team destined to finish at the bottom. No it'll be a playoff team. So we should be expecting late first rounders AT BEST. And we all know that late first rounders are always better than actual experienced NHL players who are at their peak. Ah but no that's not the point, you say. The point is to get a top pick

Petry has to return a late 1st and a prospect, he should be attractive to a playoff team that needs help on the blueline. I have badly wanted him traded to the panthers for Borgstrom, I think he's going to be a stud. But I'd trade anyone if the price was right, no one is untouchable aside from Kotka. If the Avs called and wanted Petry and Gallagher or Drouin for the Sens 1st I would jump all over that. But it's really pointless to sit here and say who we should trade and for what since only GM's know what players trade value actually is. You never know how desperate a GM will be to save their job.

The Habs haven't had a top 2 pick since 1980. If you think this team has enough high end talent to win a cup, good for you, I don't agree.

 

[Kriss E]

And this is what I find the weakest part of the argument from the pro tanking posters. You make vague suggestions and never specify exactly what assets you want to trade away and what assets you think you're going to get. It's just a vague fog of reckless hope.

After Petry who is next on the trading block? I see you have an etc. Byron? Tatar? Does it stop there or do you continue? And if you continue are you punching holes in your ship or are you really building? Also, who is going to trade for a Petry, Byron or Tatar. Obviously not a team destined to finish at the bottom. No it'll be a playoff team. So we should be expecting late first rounders AT BEST. And we all know that late first rounders are always better than actual experienced NHL players who are at their peak. Ah but no that's not the point, you say. The point is to get a top pick.

At the moment we have Price (5 OV), Drouin (3 OV), Kotkaniemi (3 OV), Domi (12 OV) Suzuki ( 13 OV) and Alzner (5 OV). That is 6 top end picks. Alzner is there to remind all the pro tank types that a top pick can also bust. We also picked Chucky at 3 OV. Guess what? He may turn out to be a decent player but he ain't what you're looking for. And neither is Drouin another 3rd OV.

And yet with 6 top end draft picks we still don't have enough top talent for some people. We need to tank one more year. I suspect if we do tank one more year, we'll hear the same refrain next year. Only this time it'll be we need to tank for Lafreniere. And the same for the following year. Because even if we do tank, we'll never get the player the tankers were hoping for.

We have tanked twice in three years. Three times in 6 years and five in thirteen years. That is as much if not more than most of the recent Cup winners. Most of those Cup winners except for the Pens really have only one elite player. Our elite player is Price. Enough with the tanking nonsense. It's time to build a winning team.

You can start with Petry, or Price, or Weber, or Tatar. How are any of us supposed to know who we trade first and the returns? We dont have GMs in our contact list.
Maybe you move one, or two, depends on the returns. You take it from there.
This year at the very least should have been heard towards that. Instead we go nuts and deviate from any plan just because our guys play with intensity...I mean FFS, the Habs arent close to winning shit with this roster. Who are we kidding here?

 

[Kriss E]

It’s a confounding dilemma for the pro tankers. What’s better, Kotkaniemi breaking out and us making the playoffs, or him finishing the year with like 30 points and sitting late lottery?

Is it really? Seems simple to me. Lotto pick. There is no rush for Kotka to break out this year.

 

[Kriss E]

First, I think you underestimate Gallagher, but second, since this poll asks what you would RATHER, would you RATHER have a borderline 1C / strong 2C in Domi plus a 35 goal scorer in Gallagher, plus a 60 point man in Drouin plus another productive winger in Tatar, backing up an emerging Kotkaniemi as the franchise C as the guy to be our Kopitar or Toews who leads us to the Cup, but only get a 40% chance at another high talent by drafting 16th, or draft 7th-8th (I don't think it is possible to draft better unless we win the lottery this year or we tell the players to lose on purpose) and get a 65% chance of a high talent but finding out that the players we have are all not as good as I listed above?

Here are the last nine #16 picks up to 2016, and here are the last nine #8 and #7 picks

#16 picks
2008 Joe Colborne 295 games was 3C for a few years
2009 Nick Leddy 590 games STAR level 1
2010 Vladimir Tarasenko 432 games STAR level 2
2011 Joel Armia 192 games 3rd liner
2012 Tom Wilson 391 games top-6 winger but nuts
2013 Nikita Zadorov 236 games 2nd pairing D
2014 Sonny Milano Bottom 6 F
2015 Matthew Barzal Big STAR or SUPERSTAR
2016 Jacob Chycrun 20+ minute D already at age 20

#8 picks
2008 Mikkel Boedker 630 games 3rd line W
2009 Scott Glennie total bust only 1 NHL game
2010 Alexander Burnistrov 348 games no impact, left for KHL
2011 Sean Couturier 511 games STAR level 2
2012 Derrick Pouliot 153 games 3rd pairing D
2013 Rasmus Ristolainen 359 games 43 point D (1st pairing)
2014 William Nylander 185 games STAR level 1-2
2015 Zach Werenski 167 games 2nd pairing D
2016 Alex Nylander - in AHL at age 20

#7 picks
2008 Colin Wilson 572 games bottom-6 C
2009 Nazem Kadri 501 games strong 3C
2010 Jeff Skinner Jeff Skinner STAR level 1
2011 Mark Scheifele 380 games Big STAR or SUPERSTAR
2012 Matt Dumba 322 games 1st pairing D
2013 Darnell Nurse 209 games good Defensive D
2014 Haydn Fleury bubble NHL slow to develop
2015 Ivan Provorov 177 games 2nd pairing D
2016 Clayton Keller 97 games Top-6 C

There might be a slight edge to drafting 7/8 versus 16 but it ain't very big. One Superstar and two stars from 16th, two stars from 8th, and 1 Superstar and 1 star from 7th.

Even though I don't think the Habs are weak enough to draft 5th this year, here are the nine #5 picks for 2008-2016
2008 Luke Schenn
2009 Braydn Schenn
2010 Nino Niederreiter
2011 Ryan Strome
2012 Morgan Rielly
2013 Elias Lindholm
2014 Michal Dal Colle
2015 Noah Hanifin
2016 Olli Juolevi

Good NHLers in most cases, but not one superstar there from the earlier years, and looking like one impact player since 2014

CONCLUSION: The problem with making the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round compared to drafting 5-8 is not the actual odds of drafting a superstar, but the temptation to do dumb things just to make the playoffs.

I have no issue with our team making the playoffs this year while NOT doing dumb things that hurt a continued build.

Appreciate the effort mate, but we are nowhere near contention. Making the POs with Domi Gallagher and Drouin...ya, that will accomplish nothing in the long term for this team. We will just go back to our good but not good enough ways.

Gimme a top 10 pick.

 

[Kriss E]

It's interesting to look back at 2012-13. Michel Therrien came in and had the team playing a fast, swarming game with lots of enthusiasm and they got off to a great start. Then Price hit a weak streak, Michel got nervous and reined things in. MB spent a deadline pick on Davis Drewiske, brought back useless vet Jeff Halpern and the team got bounced with Anderson outplaying Price.

Instead of doubling down on talent, MB picked giant Mike McCarron with his late 1st at the draft, when smaller talented players like Shea Theodore and Jake Guentzel were still available.

Then the next season, the team focused on size, with Douglas Murray and George Parros the GM's major acquisitions. MB spent a second-round pick on Thomas Vanek whom he knew would not re-sign here, again compromising the future for the immediate present.

The following summer, MB drafted Nikita Scherbak when the following guys were still available:
Brayden Point
Victor Arvidsson
Christian Dvorak
Danton Heinen
Brandon Montour

It's completely unfair to say that the reason the Habs did not get more talent is mainly because they made the playoffs in 2013. MB's entire management approach down-played long-term talent acquisition.

In no way am I suggesting this be done now, and to make sure, fire the GM's hass.

I never said the reason we didnt get more talent was due to us making the POs.
But you can't use hindsight, teams will always miss on picks.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I never said the reason we didnt get more talent was due to us making the POs.
But you can't use hindsight, teams will always miss on picks.

Yet, with hindsight, 2 NHL players in 7 years from the first four rounds of the draft is abominable.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Appreciate the effort mate, but we are nowhere near contention. Making the POs with Domi Gallagher and Drouin...ya, that will accomplish nothing in the long term for this team. We will just go back to our good but not good enough ways.

Gimme a top 10 pick.

I'm not actually saying we are contenders this year. I highly doubt we will be that good, and I highly doubt we will finish bottom 5. If you ask me, we will probably pick around 10th. But would I RATHER that our players be much better than that? Yes.

Now, please consider what I am NOT saying. I'm NOT saying the goal should be to make the playoffs no matter what, and for example cut down the youngsters' ice time, go get rental vets in exchange for picks, sign someone for many years in order to get 1 or 2 good years (which ironically is exactly what Bergevin did NOT do in the Radulov case and most of us were against letting him go). Even if our kids are doing well, I would STILL look to trade expendable vets in exchange for futures that would likely be better in the relevant window 2-6 years from now.

 

[montreal]

I'm not actually saying we are contenders this year. I highly doubt we will be that good, and I highly doubt we will finish bottom 5. If you ask me, we will probably pick around 10th. But would I RATHER that our players be much better than that? Yes.

Now, please consider what I am NOT saying. I'm NOT saying the goal should be to make the playoffs no matter what, and for example cut down the youngsters' ice time, go get rental vets in exchange for picks, sign someone for many years in order to get 1 or 2 good years (which ironically is exactly what Bergevin did NOT do in the Radulov case and most of us were against letting him go). Even if our kids are doing well, I would STILL look to trade expendable vets in exchange for futures that would likely be better in the relevant window 2-6 years from now.

the funny thing is we actually aren't far apart on our views for this team, just that we are looking at different things. I could easily see us drafting around 10th, I hope MB trades some players if it's looking like that's the case. And both of us don't seem to trust MB and Julien to stay the course and do what's right for the future.

Where we differ is that we have seen that this team in the past few years has made it to the conference finals but didn't fair very well in either and just didn't seem to have enough high end talent. It's been so long since we had a ppg player let alone two. Just think we badly need to get a top pick or two in the next 2 years but because MB didn't sell off assets sooner we likely will miss out on them. At least he traded Pac but I just hope Petry goes and gets us a nice haul.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

I'd be happy to let Petry go if we had any replacement or future replacement for him. He's not the best d-man and he's not particularly reliable on a game-to-game basis but he's significantly better than Mete and Juulsen and they don't look like they're developing in his direction (but that could change, Mete is only 20).

Every team, even rebuilding teams, need PMDs or players who could project to being PMDs. Ottawa replaced Karlsson with Chabot (and Lajoie?) the Habs can't just lose their only PMD just like that.

 

[montreal]

I'd be happy to let Petry go if we had any replacement or future replacement for him. He's not the best d-man and he's not particularly reliable on a game-to-game basis but he's significantly better than Mete and Juulsen and they don't look like they're developing in his direction (but that could change, Mete is only 20).

Every team, even rebuilding teams, need PMDs or players who could project to being PMDs. Ottawa replaced Karlsson with Chabot (and Lajoie?) the Habs can't just lose their only PMD just like that.

If the expansion draft becomes official for June 2020, we'll lose him them as we likely can't protect all of Weber, Petry, Juulsen, and Mete so someone is going to need to be traded so why not trade that player at peak value vs waiting until closer to the draft when teams know that other teams are in a tough spot. Granted it's possible that they can work out a deal where Seattle takes a pick and something else so that they don't pick one of our D but that's risky and we don't know what the cost will be.

They have Fleury in the AHL this year and Brook turning pro next year. It's not like we are going anywhere. I'd be very surprised if this team made the playoffs and if they did I can't see them going very far without goal scorers, a better defense and who knows what Price will do. Half our goals have come from 3 players (Gallagher, Domi, Byron) and half of Byron's goals came in game 2. Our 4th line has 1 goal (DLO, Peca, Shaw), our blueline has 3 goals. But yet somehow they have won 7 of 13.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

If the expansion draft becomes official for June 2020, we'll lose him them as we likely can't protect all of Weber, Petry, Juulsen, and Mete so someone is going to need to be traded so why not trade that player at peak value vs waiting until closer to the draft when teams know that other teams are in a tough spot. Granted it's possible that they can work out a deal where Seattle takes a pick and something else so that they don't pick one of our D but that's risky and we don't know what the cost will be.

I hadn't been thinking about the expansion draft at all to be honest. What about the 2019-2020 season? The Habs will need a PMD just to ice an NHL-worthy team, no? And with how the two young d-men are looking, I wouldn't particularly be fussed to lock Juulsen for instance. Would they even meet the minimum GP requirements for expansion draft?

They have Fleury in the AHL this year and Brook turning pro next year. It's not like we are going anywhere. I'd be very surprised if this team made the playoffs and if they did I can't see them going very far without goal scorers, a better defense and who knows what Price will do. Half our goals have come from 3 players (Gallagher, Domi, Byron) and half of Byron's goals came in game 2. Our 4th line has 1 goal (DLO, Peca, Shaw), our blueline has 3 goals. But yet somehow they have won 7 of 13.

The Domi Effect

 

[BaseballCoach]

the funny thing is we actually aren't far apart on our views for this team, just that we are looking at different things. I could easily see us drafting around 10th, I hope MB trades some players if it's looking like that's the case. And both of us don't seem to trust MB and Julien to stay the course and do what's right for the future.

Where we differ is that we have seen that this team in the past few years has made it to the conference finals but didn't fair very well in either and just didn't seem to have enough high end talent. It's been so long since we had a ppg player let alone two. Just think we badly need to get a top pick or two in the next 2 years but because MB didn't sell off assets sooner we likely will miss out on them. At least he traded Pac but I just hope Petry goes and gets us a nice haul.

The team is very young and we can afford to get a young vet UFA still in his prime, like Toronto did.

We also need PMDs. Perhaps we keep Petry and trade Weber. He should fetch more than Pacioretty did.

We could use some more scoring talent up front. Suzuki's potential is great but more sniping won't hurt at all.

Proposal:

• try trading Weber for Nylander with some retention on Montreal side
• target Jeff Skinner and Jake Gardiner in UFA
• to get a top-3 pick, I think there is no choice but to trade the approximately #10 we get PLUS some young talent that might interest a team that is rebuilding; not sure if we should do that but it could be considered

Here is something I did on Cap Friendly
Talent Upgrade - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[Frankenheimer]

Too many variables to engineer a team from standing placement. NHL has made it even more complicated with the lottery and recent adjustments. Team seems on the right track, most exciting product we've seen in decades. Give me the playoffs.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Too many variables to engineer a team from standing placement. NHL has made it even more complicated with the lottery and recent adjustments. Team seems on the right track, most exciting product we've seen in decades. Give me the playoffs.

The peak Kovalev era Habs were more exciting and more hopeful and had more prospects. That's just over a decade (of futility) ago.

 

[Frankenheimer]

The peak Kovalev era Habs were more exciting and more hopeful and had more prospects. That's just over a decade (of futility) ago.

I remember that era quite well. It was indeed exciting, but the under current was that the two AKs were talented floaters. What this city has been waiting for is a fast, exciting, hard working team.

 

[DAChampion]

I remember that era quite well. It was indeed exciting, but the under current was that the two AKs were talented floaters. What this city has been waiting for is a fast, exciting, hard working team.

What this city wants are:
1) To win in the playoffs;
2) To celebrate stars;

The idea that people value low-talent hard workers is a myth. Fans value talent. It's why Kovalev could sweep the fans off their feet, why people protested when he was gone, and why fan interest dropped after the Subban trade debacle. Nobody's going to protest if Jamie Benn leaves.

 

[Deebs]

What this city wants are:
1) To win in the playoffs;
2) To celebrate stars;

The idea that people value low-talent hard workers is a myth. Fans value talent. It's why Kovalev could sweep the fans off their feet, why people protested when he was gone, and why fan interest dropped after the Subban trade debacle. Nobody's going to protest if Jamie Benn leaves.

Yeah, I hate guys like Gally, Domi and Byron....those no talent hard workers lol

 

[Frankenheimer]

What this city wants are:
1) To win in the playoffs;
2) To celebrate stars;

The idea that people value low-talent hard workers is a myth. Fans value talent. It's why Kovalev could sweep the fans off their feet, why people protested when he was gone, and why fan interest dropped after the Subban trade debacle. Nobody's going to protest if Jamie Benn leaves.

We have a one man team? Bergevin is a true innovator. Benn’s market value must be astronomical.

 

[DAChampion]

Yeah, I hate guys like Gally, Domi and Byron....those no talent hard workers lol

Gallagher and Domi are both talented.
Byron, less so, in my opinion. He's not the kind of player that a team can win playoff series with, unless he's in the bottom six.

Talent is what wins playoff series and championships.

 

[Deebs]

Gallagher and Domi are both talented.
Byron, less so, in my opinion. He's not the kind of player that a team can win playoff series with, unless he's in the bottom six.

Talent is what wins playoff series and championships.

Talent gets you to the dance, hard work and determination gets you the girl.

You can't win without the total package.

 

[yianik]

Way I see it.

Peca and the 4th line are completely useless and the only chance of it actually contributing is if you give Peca a chance to play with at least one skill guy. Having both Shaw and D-Lo on it just doesnt work.

Danault is showing us he is a real good 3C.

Kotkaniemi is doing really well but certainly not a top 6C as of today.

Domi is a great surprise and is certainly making an argument as of today that he could be a 2C.

So we may have one top 6C.

Defensively we are missing our no.1. As good as Petry has done he is not a no.1. Reilly has really surprised but has tailed off lately, so is he a top 3 or not ? Dont know. Juulsen is making a case as a no.4, but not there yet.

So defensively we have only 1 sure fire top 4D man right now, 2 when Weber returns, and a couple of maybes.

Not of Jesus Price days, but Price is playing as a solid no.1 goalie.

Gallagher is a 1st lime winger. After that we have guys that are 2nd liners.

So in summary, we dont have a 1C, we have holes in the top 4D ,not much reliability with the top 6W and a useless 4th line.

I am very impressed with this team and effort, and have been pleasantly surprised. But hard work doesnt make up for big gaps of talent in the line up. So I'm not going to get all down with losses. I am still in just hoping to see a few young guys take steps to show they are top 6 forwards and top 3/4 D mode.

 

[montreal]

I hadn't been thinking about the expansion draft at all to be honest. What about the 2019-2020 season? The Habs will need a PMD just to ice an NHL-worthy team, no? And with how the two young d-men are looking, I wouldn't particularly be fussed to lock Juulsen for instance. Would they even meet the minimum GP requirements for expansion draft?


The Domi Effect

Yes, we either protect Juulsen/Mete or we lose one as I got to think their GM would jump all over that. Young and experienced even if they don't develop their offensive games, will be valuable to Seattle imo. So what do we do, just lost Petry because we need him for a season to go nowhere anyway? That just sounds like poor asset management to me. You have a guy playing at a career high level, you could likely get some very good assets for him, unless you have another play of course. They could always look to trade one of Juulsen/Mete but then you are giving up 21/20 year olds that you don't know how good they will be in the future.

Guess it comes down to do what's right for the future, or for the present.

The team is very young and we can afford to get a young vet UFA still in his prime, like Toronto did.

We also need PMDs. Perhaps we keep Petry and trade Weber. He should fetch more than Pacioretty did.

We could use some more scoring talent up front. Suzuki's potential is great but more sniping won't hurt at all.

Proposal:

• try trading Weber for Nylander with some retention on Montreal side
• target Jeff Skinner and Jake Gardiner in UFA
• to get a top-3 pick, I think there is no choice but to trade the approximately #10 we get PLUS some young talent that might interest a team that is rebuilding; not sure if we should do that but it could be considered

Here is something I did on Cap Friendly
Talent Upgrade - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

The problem is I don't think MB ever trades Weber, plus his value has to be much lower after not playing hockey for over a year and it make take some time for him to get back to where he was.

Yeah, I hate guys like Gally, Domi and Byron....those no talent hard workers lol

Well Gallagher had back to back to back 40+ goal seasons in the WHL, so clearly he has a lot of skill. Domi only put up 331 pts in 244 games in the OHL. If that's not highly skilled I don't know what is.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Yes, we either protect Juulsen/Mete or we lose one as I got to think their GM would jump all over that. Young and experienced even if they don't develop their offensive games, will be valuable to Seattle imo. So what do we do, just lost Petry because we need him for a season to go nowhere anyway? That just sounds like poor asset management to me. You have a guy playing at a career high level, you could likely get some very good assets for him, unless you have another play of course. They could always look to trade one of Juulsen/Mete but then you are giving up 21/20 year olds that you don't know how good they will be in the future.

Guess it comes down to do what's right for the future, or for the present.

I don't worry about the expansion draft. We protect our best players and make sure whoever is exposed does not have a small cap hit. Then we lose one and only one player but get cap space back to replace the player as soon as practical.

If there is some tactical move possible, we will deal with it at the time, and no need to fret now.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Gallagher is a 1st lime winger. After that we have guys that are 2nd liners.

So in summary, we dont have a 1C, we have holes in the top 4D ,not much reliability with the top 6W and a useless 4th line.

Last year the 30th C had 63 points and the 60th winger had 46 points.

If Tatar or Drouin get over 52+ points one could argue we have two first line wingers.

And the whole idea is that we will have a 1C in two years or so as J2K develops.

With Kotka, Gallahger, Domi, Tatar, Drouin and Suzuki , we MIGHT have a top 6. Still to be seen. If we could add a Skinner, Duchene or Panarin in UFA or Nylander via trade (long shot) that would help shore up the top 6.

 

[Omar]

Petry has to return a late 1st and a prospect, he should be attractive to a playoff team that needs help on the blueline. I have badly wanted him traded to the panthers for Borgstrom, I think he's going to be a stud. But I'd trade anyone if the price was right, no one is untouchable aside from Kotka. If the Avs called and wanted Petry and Gallagher or Drouin for the Sens 1st I would jump all over that. But it's really pointless to sit here and say who we should trade and for what since only GM's know what players trade value actually is. You never know how desperate a GM will be to save their job.

The Habs haven't had a top 2 pick since 1980. If you think this team has enough high end talent to win a cup, good for you, I don't agree.

In fact it’s the anti-tankers who don’t have the plan. It’s very obvious what the pro-tank plan is: trade every non-core player above 26 years of age except Price. Youth comes into the league faster now so it’s better to get teams to overpay for older players for prospects that fit more in our core’s age group. I don’t see how you can be any more precise about a plan than that. This is aimed at you @Habs Icing