Where would you rather the Montreal Canadiens finish this year?

[HOPE]

Hughes and Lafreniere should be objective targets. How to maximize the chance of landing at least one.
Everything Bergevin does should be geared towards that. As you said, even if we don't win the lotto, we are likely to still end up with serious talent.
I agree with trading Petry, he's peaking right now too, his value should be pretty darn good.
I really hope Tatar keeps this up so we can move him as well.

This feels a lot like 12-13. We had a lot of youngsters that were solid paired with strong veterans. Team ended up being better than pretty much everyone expect, but we were still missing some top talent.
It's the same thing again. You'd think people have learned by now.

Amen, neither tatar or petry will be there or at their peak when montreal will be relevant! Why not take advantage and sell high on them, to extend mediocrity or they realy believe in cinderella cup run. Look at our division ffs, if we get in the playoffs it’s wild card and will get booted straight up. A good management should be able to see in the future. Just like st-louis was smart to trade stastny when they could still have made the playoffs. Just like being not being super big and fast became a trend, being fast and young is taking over! We need to be ahead of the game! Player peak faster and decline faster with this style of hockey!

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Win what?

Games?

 

[Kriss E]

Amen, neither tatar or petry will be there or at their peak when montreal will be relevant! Why not take advantage and sell high on them, to extend mediocrity or they realy believe in cinderella cup run. Look at our division ffs, if we get in the playoffs it’s wild card and will get booted straight up. A good management should be able to see in the future. Just like st-louis was smart to trade stastny when they could still have made the playoffs. Just like being not being super big and fast became a trend, being fast and young is taking over! We need to be ahead of the game! Player peak faster and decline faster with this style of hockey!

Agreed. I don't believe Domi and Gallagher are going to be the guys to lead us to a cup.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Think you are not understanding the Difference between 1 or 2 overall and the rest. It’s not linear. That’s all I have to say really.

LOL. I showed earlier that every single team that finished second to last in the past ten years (29th!) had a player that was drafted #1 or #2. This so-called revelation that every Cup Winner had one too is actually not very meaningful after all.

 

[Kriss E]

LOL. I showed earlier that every single team that finished second to last in the past ten years (29th!) had a player that was drafted #1 or #2. This so-called revelation that every Cup Winner had one too is actually not very meaningful after all.

It is telling. Now, as Montreal pointed out, nobody ever suggested that you just need a top 2 pick to win a cup. A lot of building needs to happen outside of it. But the point was if you dont have a top 2 pick...good luck winning the cup. That is what is telling here.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Toronto had Matthews Marner nylander. All three far better than any Habs player. Dumb argument.

It would appear that way looking at last season and the 71 points the Habs mustered. But if they get 95 or more points this year and make the playoffs despite their youth and the occasional error of inexperience,then maybe the gap between best players on both teams is less than it looks.

A top 3 of Kotkaniemi, Drouin and Domi may be better than you think, and personally for the next tier of guys, I would rather be Montreal than Toronto. I would take 26 year old Gallagher on my team slightly ahead of 28 year old Kadri, and 28 year old Tatar ahead of 38 year old Marleau.

If the Habs can continue playing with enthusiasm and results, UFAs like Tavares will very possibly consider Montreal as a destination that provides a hope of winning. Certainly Montreal has the Cap Space to acquire a star player or two.

No matter where we pick in the draft, we are going to need MUCH better results than we got from 2009 to 2014. The picks fromm 2015-2018 seem more promising at this point, but time will tell in this case like many others.

Especially with Timmins first round record. Yeah. Gimme that 18th pick. Again. Not.

A concern for sure. It's fine to draft high, but you have to draft well. Look at Nylander at #8 in 2014. FOUR teams passed on him in order to select Sam Bennett, Michael Dal Colle, Jake Virtanen and Haydn Fleury. Even Ekblad at #1 and Reinhart at #2 have arguably less impact than Nylander.

If there were a do-over of the 2014 draft today, After Draisatl and Pasternak, Nylander might be #3 or #4. At worst #5 if you like Ehlers ahead of him (I don't).

 

[ECWHSWI]

It is telling. Now, as Montreal pointed out, nobody ever suggested that you just need a top 2 pick to win a cup. A lot of building needs to happen outside of it. But the point was if you dont have a top 2 pick...good luck winning the cup. That is what is telling here.

no problemo, just keep being a bubble team, anything can happen in the PO

25 years and counting...

 

[BaseballCoach]

Literally no one here has said this. You simply do not understand how bad the Habs really are.

You have an evaluation of the Habs in your head. If you are correct, the team will not come close to 95 points this year. Not a sniff. The strategy would therefore be to continue to build assets.

I'm actually proposing virtually the exact same strategy. I'm ok to trade Weber or Petry, Tatar, Byron, Shaw, even Danault .... if the return in assets seems likely to get us better players in the relevant window of 2-6 years from now.

I'm not counting on Price to do anything but crap the bed and eventually retire.

I'm not suggesting we spend good picks to pick up a rental like Duchene or acquire an expensive contract like Marleau in order to squeak into the playoffs ahead of our natural and organic ability.

All I am saying is that while managing in a BUILDING mode, it would be a good thing if the young guys we have now, from Gallagher (1992) down, progress very nicely and form a dangerous nucleus so that we can add the next "Tavares" in two or three years.

In the meantime, we stockpile picks, draft for talent, and emphasize development. So, @bsl, do you disagree with any of this really?

 

[BaseballCoach]

Agreed. I don't believe Domi and Gallagher are going to be the guys to lead us to a cup.

First, I think you underestimate Gallagher, but second, since this poll asks what you would RATHER, would you RATHER have a borderline 1C / strong 2C in Domi plus a 35 goal scorer in Gallagher, plus a 60 point man in Drouin plus another productive winger in Tatar, backing up an emerging Kotkaniemi as the franchise C as the guy to be our Kopitar or Toews who leads us to the Cup, but only get a 40% chance at another high talent by drafting 16th, or draft 7th-8th (I don't think it is possible to draft better unless we win the lottery this year or we tell the players to lose on purpose) and get a 65% chance of a high talent but finding out that the players we have are all not as good as I listed above?

Here are the last nine #16 picks up to 2016, and here are the last nine #8 and #7 picks

#16 picks
2008 Joe Colborne 295 games was 3C for a few years
2009 Nick Leddy 590 games STAR level 1
2010 Vladimir Tarasenko 432 games STAR level 2
2011 Joel Armia 192 games 3rd liner
2012 Tom Wilson 391 games top-6 winger but nuts
2013 Nikita Zadorov 236 games 2nd pairing D
2014 Sonny Milano Bottom 6 F
2015 Matthew Barzal Big STAR or SUPERSTAR
2016 Jacob Chycrun 20+ minute D already at age 20

#8 picks
2008 Mikkel Boedker 630 games 3rd line W
2009 Scott Glennie total bust only 1 NHL game
2010 Alexander Burnistrov 348 games no impact, left for KHL
2011 Sean Couturier 511 games STAR level 2
2012 Derrick Pouliot 153 games 3rd pairing D
2013 Rasmus Ristolainen 359 games 43 point D (1st pairing)
2014 William Nylander 185 games STAR level 1-2
2015 Zach Werenski 167 games 2nd pairing D
2016 Alex Nylander - in AHL at age 20

#7 picks
2008 Colin Wilson 572 games bottom-6 C
2009 Nazem Kadri 501 games strong 3C
2010 Jeff Skinner Jeff Skinner STAR level 1
2011 Mark Scheifele 380 games Big STAR or SUPERSTAR
2012 Matt Dumba 322 games 1st pairing D
2013 Darnell Nurse 209 games good Defensive D
2014 Haydn Fleury bubble NHL slow to develop
2015 Ivan Provorov 177 games 2nd pairing D
2016 Clayton Keller 97 games Top-6 C

There might be a slight edge to drafting 7/8 versus 16 but it ain't very big. One Superstar and two stars from 16th, two stars from 8th, and 1 Superstar and 1 star from 7th.

Even though I don't think the Habs are weak enough to draft 5th this year, here are the nine #5 picks for 2008-2016
2008 Luke Schenn
2009 Braydn Schenn
2010 Nino Niederreiter
2011 Ryan Strome
2012 Morgan Rielly
2013 Elias Lindholm
2014 Michal Dal Colle
2015 Noah Hanifin
2016 Olli Juolevi

Good NHLers in most cases, but not one superstar there from the earlier years, and looking like one impact player since 2014

CONCLUSION: The problem with making the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round compared to drafting 5-8 is not the actual odds of drafting a superstar, but the temptation to do dumb things just to make the playoffs.

I have no issue with our team making the playoffs this year while NOT doing dumb things that hurt a continued build.

 

[BaseballCoach]

This feels a lot like 12-13. We had a lot of youngsters that were solid paired with strong veterans. Team ended up being better than pretty much everyone expect, but we were still missing some top talent.
It's the same thing again. You'd think people have learned by now.

It's interesting to look back at 2012-13. Michel Therrien came in and had the team playing a fast, swarming game with lots of enthusiasm and they got off to a great start. Then Price hit a weak streak, Michel got nervous and reined things in. MB spent a deadline pick on Davis Drewiske, brought back useless vet Jeff Halpern and the team got bounced with Anderson outplaying Price.

Instead of doubling down on talent, MB picked giant Mike McCarron with his late 1st at the draft, when smaller talented players like Shea Theodore and Jake Guentzel were still available.

Then the next season, the team focused on size, with Douglas Murray and George Parros the GM's major acquisitions. MB spent a second-round pick on Thomas Vanek whom he knew would not re-sign here, again compromising the future for the immediate present.

The following summer, MB drafted Nikita Scherbak when the following guys were still available:
Brayden Point
Victor Arvidsson
Christian Dvorak
Danton Heinen
Brandon Montour

It's completely unfair to say that the reason the Habs did not get more talent is mainly because they made the playoffs in 2013. MB's entire management approach down-played long-term talent acquisition.

In no way am I suggesting this be done now, and to make sure, fire the GM's hass.

 

[Habs Icing]

I know many now won't like to hear after one of the best wins of the season, but if this team starts slipping I hope they do trade a few assets like Petry, etc.. especially if the expansion draft becomes official. If these next two drafts end up being as strong as they appear they could be, we could be looking at some sick talent and even if we don't win the lotto if we were close we might have the assets to move up to get a Lafrenière, Kakko, Byfield, Hughes. Just would be so great to add Lafrenière to this team or another one of the high end guys either this year or next imo.

And this is what I find the weakest part of the argument from the pro tanking posters. You make vague suggestions and never specify exactly what assets you want to trade away and what assets you think you're going to get. It's just a vague fog of reckless hope.

After Petry who is next on the trading block? I see you have an etc. Byron? Tatar? Does it stop there or do you continue? And if you continue are you punching holes in your ship or are you really building? Also, who is going to trade for a Petry, Byron or Tatar. Obviously not a team destined to finish at the bottom. No it'll be a playoff team. So we should be expecting late first rounders AT BEST. And we all know that late first rounders are always better than actual experienced NHL players who are at their peak. Ah but no that's not the point, you say. The point is to get a top pick.

At the moment we have Price (5 OV), Drouin (3 OV), Kotkaniemi (3 OV), Domi (12 OV) Suzuki ( 13 OV) and Alzner (5 OV). That is 6 top end picks. Alzner is there to remind all the pro tank types that a top pick can also bust. We also picked Chucky at 3 OV. Guess what? He may turn out to be a decent player but he ain't what you're looking for. And neither is Drouin another 3rd OV.

And yet with 6 top end draft picks we still don't have enough top talent for some people. We need to tank one more year. I suspect if we do tank one more year, we'll hear the same refrain next year. Only this time it'll be we need to tank for Lafreniere. And the same for the following year. Because even if we do tank, we'll never get the player the tankers were hoping for.

We have tanked twice in three years. Three times in 6 years and five in thirteen years. That is as much if not more than most of the recent Cup winners. Most of those Cup winners except for the Pens really have only one elite player. Our elite player is Price. Enough with the tanking nonsense. It's time to build a winning team.

 

[BaseballCoach]

And this is what I find the weakest part of the argument from the pro tanking posters. You make vague suggestions and never specify exactly what assets you want to trade away and what assets you think you're going to get. It's just a vague fog of reckless hope.

After Petry who is next on the trading block? I see you have an etc. Byron? Tatar? Does it stop there or do you continue? And if you continue are you punching holes in your ship or are you really building? Also, who is going to trade for a Petry, Byron or Tatar. Obviously not a team destined to finish at the bottom. No it'll be a playoff team. So we should be expecting late first rounders AT BEST. And we all know that late first rounders are always better than actual experienced NHL players who are at their peak. Ah but no that's not the point, you say. The point is to get a top pick.

At the moment we have Price (5 OV), Drouin (3 OV), Kotkaniemi (3 OV), Domi (12 OV) Suzuki ( 13 OV) and Alzner (5 OV). That is 6 top end picks. Alzner is there to remind all the pro tank types that a top pick can also bust. We also picked Chucky at 3 OV. Guess what? He may turn out to be a decent player but he ain't what you're looking for. And neither is Drouin another 3rd OV.

And yet with 6 top end draft picks we still don't have enough top talent for some people. We need to tank one more year. I suspect if we do tank one more year, we'll hear the same refrain next year. Only this time it'll be we need to tank for Lafreniere. And the same for the following year. Because even if we do tank, we'll never get the player the tankers were hoping for.

We have tanked twice in three years. Three times in 6 years and four in thirteen years. That is as much if not more than most of the recent Cup winners. Most of those Cup winners except for the Pens really have only one elite player. Our elite player is Price. Enough with the tanking nonsense. It's time to build a winning team.

The drafting from 2008 to 2014 was abominable, and that is our real problem.

In seven years, we got one useful NHL player from the first round, Galchenyuk 3rd in 2012, who morphed into Domi. That's it.

Wasted our 1st 2008 pick on one year of Alex Tanguay
Louis Leblanc 2009 busted
Jarred Tinordi 2010 busted
Nathan Beaulieu 2011 no impact
Michael McCarron 2013 busted
Nimita Scherbak 2014 no impact, maybe busted

From the 21 second, third and fourth round picks, only Lehkonen became a regular NHLer for us.

This is a complete garbage record.

 

[Habs Icing]

The drafting from 2009 to 2014 was abominable, and that is our real problem.

I think you mean from 08 to 13.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I think you mean from 08 to 13.

2014 not impressed with Scherbak, nor Lernout and gave away the second and fourth for rentals.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

We are due lol!

It’s a confounding dilemma for the pro tankers. What’s better, Kotkaniemi breaking out and us making the playoffs, or him finishing the year with like 30 points and sitting late lottery?

 

[DAChampion]

It’s a confounding dilemma for the pro tankers. What’s better, Kotkaniemi breaking out and us making the playoffs, or him finishing the year with like 30 points and sitting late lottery?

I'm pro-tank.

The way I see it, if the team is good enough to legitimately make the playoffs, then it's not far off from contending.

Bergevin will still need to "add" for the Habs to be a credible contender. If he cannot add by adding top-5 picks, then he will have to add by either competently managing assets on the trade marketing, or making strategic UFA acquisitions. The latter may be easier, if two or three out of Karlsson, Duchene, and Panarin make it to the trade market. For example, if the Habs legitimately make the playoffs, and Bergevin can add Karlsson, then we will be able to say that the rebuild is complete.

 

[cphabs]

It’s a confounding dilemma for the pro tankers. What’s better, Kotkaniemi breaking out and us making the playoffs, or him finishing the year with like 30 points and sitting late lottery?

In a capped league stretched to its limits? Consecutive high round draft picks and player development is a must. We have to accumulate a bunch of highly skilled youngsters and play them before their contracts get too expensive. Sad but true. In any case, there is no sitting on a player like Coconut IMO. That would be a mistake.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I'm pro-tank.

The way I see it, if the team is good enough to legitimately make the playoffs, then it's not far off from contending.

Bergevin will still need to "add" for the Habs to be a credible contender. If he cannot add by adding top-5 picks, then he will have to add by either competently managing assets on the trade marketing, or making strategic UFA acquisitions. The latter may be easier, if two or three out of Karlsson, Duchene, and Panarin make it to the trade market. For example, if the Habs legitimately make the playoffs, and Bergevin can add Karlsson, then we will be able to say that the rebuild is complete.

I’d be more patient with the FA route. We have some top shelf prospects knocking on the door in Poehling, Suzuki, and Brook, so id prefer continuing the youth movement before adding a Duchene.

 

[1909]

I’d be more patient with the FA route. We have some top shelf prospects knocking on the door in Poehling, Suzuki, and Brook, so id prefer continuing the youth movement before adding a Duchene.

Me too. Let's f... stick to the Plan !

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I’d be more patient with the FA route. We have some top shelf prospects knocking on the door in Poehling, Suzuki, and Brook, so id prefer continuing the youth movement before adding a Duchene.

Why not both?
Not saying Duchene would solve all our issues but he is in the right age and he would definately be a good player. He would fit our team like a glove with his skating and talent. Not saying it would happen but refusing to get a top NHLer because you have Poehling/Suzuki is just wrong. It would have been the same thought as if Bergevin should not have signed Radulov because it would limit the opportunity for Scherbak/McCarron.

If you get Duchene and Poehling, Suzuki are in the AHL its not necessarely bad. If they are too good for the AHL this is where it becomes a good situation.

That being said getting a duchene is completaly diffenrent than getting a guy like Brassard. One is a legit top player in his prime while the other is a role player in his decline. I would not favor the later.

That being said we could definately trade some players to accelerate the youth movement (Weber, Benn, Petry, Schlemko could become available for the right price.)

 

[BaseballCoach]

Why not both?
Not saying Duchene would solve all our issues but he is in the right age and he would definately be a good player.

LOL at those who think Tomas Tatar is too old to be part of the future. He is one month older than Matt Duchene. Tatar is also almost two years younger than PK Subban.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Why not both?
Not saying Duchene would solve all our issues but he is in the right age and he would definately be a good player. He would fit our team like a glove with his skating and talent. Not saying it would happen but refusing to get a top NHLer because you have Poehling/Suzuki is just wrong. It would have been the same thought as if Bergevin should not have signed Radulov because it would limit the opportunity for Scherbak/McCarron.

If you get Duchene and Poehling, Suzuki are in the AHL its not necessarely bad. If they are too good for the AHL this is where it becomes a good situation.

That being said getting a duchene is completaly diffenrent than getting a guy like Brassard. One is a legit top player in his prime while the other is a role player in his decline. I would not favor the later.

That being said we could definately trade some players to accelerate the youth movement (Weber, Benn, Petry, Schlemko could become available for the right price.)

I understand your point, but disagree with it. I would rather ride the youth movement another year before targeting high priced free agents. As well, let’s not compare Suzuki and Poehling to Scherbust and McCantskate.

 

[BB88]

It’s a confounding dilemma for the pro tankers. What’s better, Kotkaniemi breaking out and us making the playoffs, or him finishing the year with like 30 points and sitting late lottery?

Especially considering the team seeing a potential 2way franchise C exploding should win that one.

I'd say 40 point is what I'd consider a great season for Kotka.

 

[Cobra Commander]

It’s a confounding dilemma for the pro tankers. What’s better, Kotkaniemi breaking out and us making the playoffs, or him finishing the year with like 30 points and sitting late lottery?

Let’s make the playoffs.

 

[habsterr]

It’s a confounding dilemma for the pro tankers. What’s better, Kotkaniemi breaking out and us making the playoffs, or him finishing the year with like 30 points and sitting late lottery?

Why not both? 40 point season for Kotkaniemi and a bottom 5 finish.