Where will Ovechkin rank all time when he retires?

Where will Ovechkin rank all time when he retires?

  • #1

    Votes: 6 2.4%
  • Top 3

    Votes: 7 2.9%
  • Top 5

    Votes: 11 4.5%
  • Top 10

    Votes: 117 47.8%
  • Top 15

    Votes: 58 23.7%
  • Top 20

    Votes: 26 10.6%
  • Top 25

    Votes: 11 4.5%
  • Top 30

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • Top 40

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Top 50

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Top 100

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • Not even top 100

    Votes: 5 2.0%

  • Total voters
    245

Video Nasty

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
5,695
9,929
Without the cup McDavid will never sniff the top 5

At worst, he’s already sniffing it.

Don’t worry though. McDavid has a great chance at collecting his second Conn Smythe and his first Cup within the next nine months. Should that happen, along with whatever additional hardware he might rack up this season, he’ll be firmly top 5.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Nuge

MacMacandBarbie

Registered User
Dec 9, 2019
2,921
1,929
How was Lafleur’s peak any better than them though. Statistically Jagr did more for longer and on worse teams with clearly worse offensive support. He has Lafleur beat in peak, prime and length of each.
Lafleur just had a higher peak than Jagr. He won the Art Ross 3 years in a row, but also won the Pearson all 3 years, the Hart 2 of those 3 years and was a finalist the year he was robbed due to voter fatigue, and to top it all off, he won the cup all 3 of those years as well.

Jagr not going deep into the playoffs and winning during his insane peak is what gave Lafleur a tiny bit of an edge for peak for me basically. It was extremely close though, and obviously Jagr has him beat everywhere else. But as far as pure peak play, Lafleur stacks well against anybody for me, personally. It doesn't seem like we are just talking about peak play in this thread, so if career and longevity are important than I do understand if Lafleur ranks lower on lists.
 

Nathaniel Skywalker

DIG IN!!! RiGHT NOW!!!
Oct 18, 2013
14,242
5,903
13th

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Harvey
7. Crosby
8. McDavid
9. Hull
10. Bourque
11. Hasek
12. Jagr
13. Ovechkin
What is your reasoning for beliveau over Crosby. ?They have very very similar hardware n award finishes while Crosby did it in a far deeper better NHL. Crosby is the 5th greatest player of all time as of right now. With a cup mcdavid will push him to 6th. If that happens the top 6 players will remain those 6 for a very very long time. Unless bedard comes in to challenge 87/97
 

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
8,439
9,276
Regina, Saskatchewan
What is your reasoning for beliveau over Crosby. They have very very similar hardware n award finishes while Crosby did it in a far deeper better NHL.
Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.

Beliveau had the better single season (1956) and better single playoffs (1956).

I still prefer Beliveau's entire playoff resume over Crosby's, though the gap has narrowed a ton.

Crosby obviously has not done anything post age 36 yet. Beliveau added two second place Hart finishes and two Cups. His 1971 playoff performance at age 39 to cap off his 10th Cup is fantastic.

I think it's possible, maybe ever probable, that Crosby still overtakes Beliveau. But I don't think he's there yet. And I won't get credit for an age 37, 38, and 39 season that hasn't happened yet.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,786
11,645
I got the years slightly wrong, it was more like 2007-2010. It was an insane run, and the player OV was from 2006-2010 was uniquely different than the rest of his career. OV can't be young forever, and he relied more on his athleticism than other players to play at that level. I just don't like this aspect of judging an all time list without having criteria attached to it, because that level that OV hit was a level that Beliveau couldn't sniff, and should be acknowledged.
First of all this is an all time ranking and that means everything gets considered not just peak play.

Second point is let's flesh this out then.


2007-2010 OV
Really sure he scored a ton of goals and he did have the most points over this time period.

The thing is that he scored a total of 19 more points than Crosby but he did it in 25 more games.
75-78 Lafleur
Lafleur does better year, nearly 100 points more than dionne and Clarke but Clarke was stellar defensively and Dionne had very little support compared to Guy but let's leave it there for a minute.
Any of Beliveau's prime years
If by you mean consecutive 4 year segments sure as Jean suffered some injuries but I usually take 3 consecutive years for peak and 7 fro prime but since you said any....

55-56 Jean wins the Art Ross by 9 points over Howe
58-59 Jean is 2nd in scoring to linemate Dickie Moore by 5 points but misses 6 games that year
56-57 Jean is 3rd in points with 84 in 69 games , 1 point behind Ted Lindsay and 5 behind Gordie Howe. (Howe BTW probably has a better peak than Lafleur and Ovi here from 51-54 with a 77 point spread over his libnemate Lindsay and 90 points over Richard.
60-61 Jean is second in scoring behind linemate Geoffrion who had a career year with his line of 64-50-45-95

The rest of OV's prime years
Which ones are those exactly?

The rest of Lafleur's prime years
That's only 2 more years on those Hab dynasty teams 78-79 he was 3rd in scoring and 79-80 where he was 3rd again besides that he wasn't really an uber elite player anymore.
Is how I would rank them, and I think thats pretty universal. If Jean is considered to have a better career than OV and Lafleur thats fine, but we should at least be able to point out that at their best Jean was the worst of the 3.
I think that's a very subjective comment as Jean was competing against Howe for the most part and had injuries and Ovi wasn't a hell of alot better than crosby over that time period just played in 25 more games.

Like stated upthread I'd take both Jagr and Howe's 4 year peaks over Guy or Ovi.
 

Nathaniel Skywalker

DIG IN!!! RiGHT NOW!!!
Oct 18, 2013
14,242
5,903
Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.

Beliveau had the better single season (1956) and better single playoffs (1956).

I still prefer Beliveau's entire playoff resume over Crosby's, though the gap has narrowed a ton.

Crosby obviously has not done anything post age 36 yet. Beliveau added two second place Hart finishes and two Cups. His 1971 playoff performance at age 39 to cap off his 10th Cup is fantastic.

I think it's possible, maybe ever probable, that Crosby still overtakes Beliveau. But I don't think he's there yet. And I won't get credit for an age 37, 38, and 39 season that hasn't happened yet.
Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.

Beliveau had the better single season (1956) and better single playoffs (1956).

I still prefer Beliveau's entire playoff resume over Crosby's, though the gap has narrowed a ton.

Crosby obviously has not done anything post age 36 yet. Beliveau added two second place Hart finishes and two Cups. His 1971 playoff performance at age 39 to cap off his 10th Cup is fantastic.

I think it's possible, maybe ever probable, that Crosby still overtakes Beliveau. But I don't think he's there yet. And I won't get credit for an age 37, 38, and 39 season that hasn't happened yet.
We have to take the fact that Crosby has been playing in a 30-32 team league with a great internation pool of players to compete with in comparison. Not to mention only 2 round playoffs in jeans time. What makes his 56 playoffs better than any of crosbys 2008, 09, 2017, 2018 playoffs? Crosby had 21 in 14 after 3 rounds in 08, 28 points in 17 games after 3 rounds in 09, 21 points in 12 after 2 rounds in 18, even 19 in 13 after 2 in 2010. Factor in again much better competition etc. For example Crosby has 6 harts right now with no europeans or americans
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,786
11,645
Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.
I'll have to take your word for it as I'm not old enough to ahve seen him play live but really how much does that add to the eqaution.

for example if Jean is a 1000 on a collective scale of points on how we are grading forwards is that defensive edge worth more than 25-50 points overall?

Beliveau had the better single season (1956) and better single playoffs (1956).
Sure but those are single seasons in 20 year careers and the difference once again isn't huge here (06-07 and 13-14), if at all in the regular season and we have 12 seasons in Crosby's prime 10-11 and 12-13 where crosby definitely played at a level equal to Jean in 56 if not higher..
I still prefer Beliveau's entire playoff resume over Crosby's, though the gap has narrowed a ton.
I guess one can perfer it but once again even so it's nothing definitive and large by any measure.

Crosby obviously has not done anything post age 36 yet. Beliveau added two second place Hart finishes and two Cups. His 1971 playoff performance at age 39 to cap off his 10th Cup is fantastic.

Well that's unlikely to happen in a salary cap NHL but I'll go out on a limb here and say post 30 Jean doesn't stack up to Crosby that great although if crosby were to do a Bourque and head over to colorado that could change (I know it won't happen so it's an era thing)
I think it's possible, maybe ever probable, that Crosby still overtakes Beliveau. But I don't think he's there yet. And I won't get credit for an age 37, 38, and 39 season that hasn't happened yet.
We will agree to disagree here as I think that the totality of Crosby's career is greater than Beliveau and that Crosby passed Jean several seasons ago.
 

Duffy13

‎(ノಥ益ಥ)ノ ┻━┻
Feb 16, 2013
885
292
PEI, Canada
You take the best Canadian and American players of today, put them on 6 teams, then add 6 teams of AHL players sprinkle in a few NHL quality players , then 2 more AHL teams 3 years later, and have the first 3 years the O6 plays the expansion teams for the Cup. Then have some of the best players leave for a competitive rival league.... yeah those years are going to absolutely be a huge bump for those O6 players.

The League bungled that situation so badly the whole era should hold a giant asterix
 

Duffy13

‎(ノಥ益ಥ)ノ ┻━┻
Feb 16, 2013
885
292
PEI, Canada
Oh yeah, the vote.... would be surprised if he wasn't considered top 10, but I don't think Ovi is anything less than top 15
 

hamzarocks

Registered User
Jul 22, 2012
21,638
15,263
Pickering, Ontario
Crosby would have 6 harts in beliveaus situation
2007,2010,2013,2014,2016, 2019
0% chance crosby is getting 2010 or 2019

2019 he got gifted a finalist that year.

He deserved to win

2007, 2011(if healthy was the clear winner), 2013, 2014 and 2017 (imo hart and lindsay should have been split in this year so either the hart or lindsay he deserved to win)

2012 to little games played but lilely would have won if he played enough
 

nowhereman

Registered User
Jan 24, 2010
9,463
8,094
Los Angeles
Assuming he ends up scoring more goals than any other player in NHL history, you'd have to think that solidifies a spot in the top 10.
 

filinski77

Registered User
Feb 12, 2017
2,701
4,466
I know that we have been over this territory before but really is the argument for Beliveau and Harvey really past the smell test here over Crosby?

Harvey took till his later 20s to get going at his insane level and Beliveau had some down years.

Heck both crosby and Beliveau have 12 seasons in top 10 scoring but the huge difference being the size of the league and competition.

If one were to take out all non Canadians to make it an apples to apples comparison this is how it would shake out.

But before we do that let's look at their top 10 scoring finishes straight up.


Beliveau 1,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,6,8,8,9
Crosby 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10,10

Taking out same finishes we end up with this.

Jean 4,8,8,9
Sid 1,5,10,10

Here is Crosby in a Canadian to Canadian apples to apples finishes

05-06 goes from 6 to 3rd

06-07 stays the same

07-08 goes from 29th to 18th with 72 points in 32 games played (just for comparative purposes Jean played in 55 of 70 games in 57-58 and still finishes 8th in scoring that what 18 first line players compared to 90 will do).

08-09 3rd to 1st

09-10 2nd to 1st

10-11 30th to 20th in only 41 GP

11-12 37 points in 22 G

12-13 stays in 3rd place with 56 points in 36 games (48 game season)

13-14 stays in first place

14-15 stays in 3rd place 3 points being the leader with 5 games missed

15-16 3rd to 2nd

16-17 stays in 2nd place

17-18 10th to 5th place

18-19 5th to 2nd

19-20 41 game season

20-21 10th to 6th

21-22 24th to 9th in 69 of 82 GP

22-23 16th to 6th

23-24 12th to 3rd

Now why exactly would you have Crosby behind Jean here?
Exact same line of thinking is why I have Ovechkin > Hull Sr.
-> Without adjusting, Ovechkins goal-scoring in an international league is a clear step ahead of Hull
-> With adjusting for that, Ovechkin has more top-3 than Hull has top-10
-> Without adjusting, Ovechkins point-scoring is already pretty close to Hull (albeit slightly behind. Both lead league in points/gp 3 times)
-> With adjusting for that, Ovechkin is a equal or better, WITH the significantly better goalscoring resume.

Hull - pointsOvi - CAD only pointsOvi actual goalsHull - goal finishesOvi - CAD only goals
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
2​
2​
1​
1​
1​
2​
3​
1​
1​
1​
2​
4​
1​
1​
1​
4​
5​
1​
1​
1​
5​
5​
1​
2​
1​
6​
6​
1​
2​
1​
7​
6​
3​
3​
1​
9​
6​
3​
4​
2​
7​
4​
5​
2​
8​
4​
6​
3​
8​
5​
3​
9​
9​
4​
4​
5​
9​
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast

psycat

Registered User
Oct 25, 2016
3,297
1,203
Top 25 comfortably, probably top 20 and arguably top 15, weak case for top 10.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,786
11,645
Exact same line of thinking is why I have Ovechkin > Hull Sr.
-> Without adjusting, Ovechkins goal-scoring in an international league is a clear step ahead of Hull
-> With adjusting for that, Ovechkin has more top-3 than Hull has top-10
-> Without adjusting, Ovechkins point-scoring is already pretty close to Hull (albeit slightly behind. Both lead league in points/gp 3 times)
-> With adjusting for that, Ovechkin is a equal or better, WITH the significantly better goalscoring resume.

Hull - pointsOvi - CAD only pointsOvi actual goalsHull - goal finishesOvi - CAD only goals
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
2​
2​
1​
1​
1​
2​
3​
1​
1​
1​
2​
4​
1​
1​
1​
4​
5​
1​
1​
1​
5​
5​
1​
2​
1​
6​
6​
1​
2​
1​
7​
6​
3​
3​
1​
9​
6​
3​
4​
2​
7​
4​
5​
2​
8​
4​
6​
3​
8​
5​
3​
9​
9​
4​
4​
5​
9​
Ovi passed Hull several seasons ago.
 

MacMacandBarbie

Registered User
Dec 9, 2019
2,921
1,929
Ovi passed Hull several seasons ago.
Not so sure. Hull has 3 Art Ross trophies, where he beat the likes of prime Howe/Richard and Beliveau who seems to be getting insane love. OV has literally 1. Bobby won 7 goal scoring titles to OV's 9, so for him to be beating out legends for longer than OV in the Art Ross race while dominating in the goal scoring race at the same time is what gives him the slight edge still for me, personally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Video Nasty

MacMacandBarbie

Registered User
Dec 9, 2019
2,921
1,929
Exact same line of thinking is why I have Ovechkin > Hull Sr.
-> Without adjusting, Ovechkins goal-scoring in an international league is a clear step ahead of Hull
-> With adjusting for that, Ovechkin has more top-3 than Hull has top-10
-> Without adjusting, Ovechkins point-scoring is already pretty close to Hull (albeit slightly behind. Both lead league in points/gp 3 times)
-> With adjusting for that, Ovechkin is a equal or better, WITH the significantly better goalscoring resume.

Hull - pointsOvi - CAD only pointsOvi actual goalsHull - goal finishesOvi - CAD only goals
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
1​
2​
2​
1​
1​
1​
2​
3​
1​
1​
1​
2​
4​
1​
1​
1​
4​
5​
1​
1​
1​
5​
5​
1​
2​
1​
6​
6​
1​
2​
1​
7​
6​
3​
3​
1​
9​
6​
3​
4​
2​
7​
4​
5​
2​
8​
4​
6​
3​
8​
5​
3​
9​
9​
4​
4​
5​
9​
I think this is a decent way of presenting the information, but still pretty biased towards OV. Hull still looks pretty good when taking into account his better point finishes against tougher competition even when you adjust the europeans out of the league. Also, if you adjust the europeans out of the league, then who is dishing the puck to OV all of these years? lol
 

hamzarocks

Registered User
Jul 22, 2012
21,638
15,263
Pickering, Ontario
Ovi passed Hull several seasons ago.
Hard disagree

Not sure if either Crosby or OV have passed Bobby Hull. Have him 6th all time on my list

Mcdavid has passed him but these two are behind still and unlikely to pass.

At worse, Hull is right there with them for their careers. He dominated the league and was the 2nd best player in the league usually behind after Howe and then Orr, two players in the top 4/5 all time
 

Cup or Bust

Registered User
Oct 17, 2017
4,457
4,010
If he was in a draft with all the greatest players in history, there is probably 10-20 guys I might pick to be my team's franchise player ahead of him to be honest. If it was just wingers, he would be quite high on the list.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,786
11,645
Not so sure. Hull has 3 Art Ross trophies, where he beat the likes of prime Howe/Richard and Beliveau who seems to be getting insane love. OV has literally 1. Bobby won 7 goal scoring titles to OV's 9, so for him to be beating out legends for longer than OV in the Art Ross race while dominating in the goal scoring race at the same time is what gives him the slight edge still for me, personally.
Pretty sure those 3 Art Ross trophies happened when the 3 players you mentioned were in their 30s and Ovi has just been an elite goal scorer for so long.
 

MacMacandBarbie

Registered User
Dec 9, 2019
2,921
1,929
Pretty sure those 3 Art Ross trophies happened when the 3 players you mentioned were in their 30s and Ovi has just been an elite goal scorer for so long.
Beliveau was in his 20s for the 1st one at least, and Howe was just entering his 30s. Howe/Beliveau in their early 30s were still in their prime and competing for Hart trophies even when Hull was winning his last couple Art Ross trophies. There is just no denying Howe/Beliveau in their prime years is tougher competition than what OV had to face.

Hull was an elite goal scorer as well. He didn't just win the Art Ross those 3 years, he also led the league in goals those years as well. 913 total professional goals. He played during a time when the NHL was still finding his footing, but he dominated in goal scoring in similar fashion as OV.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,786
11,645
Beliveau was in his 20s for the 1st one at least,
Yes n 59-60 hull won the Art Ross with this line 70-39-42-81.

Jean was 28 and finished 3rd with a line of 60-34-40-74.

Surely if Jean had played in 10 more games he would have had 7 or 8 more points?


and Howe was just entering his 30s.
Howe was 31 for the 59-60 season and was by far the oldest player in the top 5 scoring year in year out when Hull played.

Howe/Beliveau in their early 30s were still in their prime and competing for Hart trophies even when Hull was winning his last couple Art Ross trophies. There is just no denying Howe/Beliveau in their prime years is tougher competition than what OV had to face.
To me this is just name dropping as in Hull's second Art Ross finish Jean was injured and only played in 43 games and was 30.

The season before in 60-61 Jean had 90 points and Hull had 56.

The season after Howe led the NHL in scoring at age 34, Jean was 6th and Hull was 9th.


Hull was an elite goal scorer as well. He didn't just win the Art Ross those 3 years, he also led the league in goals those years as well. 913 total professional goals. He played during a time when the NHL was still finding his footing, but he dominated in goal scoring in similar fashion as OV.
Hull is an elite goal scorer but so is Ovi and as outlined above in an apples to apples or Canadian to Canadian comparison he really outdoes Hull.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad