Lafleur just had a higher peak than Jagr. He won the Art Ross 3 years in a row, but also won the Pearson all 3 years, the Hart 2 of those 3 years and was a finalist the year he was robbed due to voter fatigue, and to top it all off, he won the cup all 3 of those years as well.
What is your reasoning for beliveau over Crosby. ?They have very very similar hardware n award finishes while Crosby did it in a far deeper better NHL. Crosby is the 5th greatest player of all time as of right now. With a cup mcdavid will push him to 6th. If that happens the top 6 players will remain those 6 for a very very long time. Unless bedard comes in to challenge 87/97
Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.
First of all this is an all time ranking and that means everything gets considered not just peak play.
Really sure he scored a ton of goals and he did have the most points over this time period.
Lafleur does better year, nearly 100 points more than dionne and Clarke but Clarke was stellar defensively and Dionne had very little support compared to Guy but let's leave it there for a minute.
If by you mean consecutive 4 year segments sure as Jean suffered some injuries but I usually take 3 consecutive years for peak and 7 fro prime but since you said any....
Which ones are those exactly?
That's only 2 more years on those Hab dynasty teams 78-79 he was 3rd in scoring and 79-80 where he was 3rd again besides that he wasn't really an uber elite player anymore.
I think that's a very subjective comment as Jean was competing against Howe for the most part and had injuries and Ovi wasn't a hell of alot better than crosby over that time period just played in 25 more games.
We have to take the fact that Crosby has been playing in a 30-32 team league with a great internation pool of players to compete with in comparison. Not to mention only 2 round playoffs in jeans time. What makes his 56 playoffs better than any of crosbys 2008, 09, 2017, 2018 playoffs? Crosby had 21 in 14 after 3 rounds in 08, 28 points in 17 games after 3 rounds in 09, 21 points in 12 after 2 rounds in 18, even 19 in 13 after 2 in 2010. Factor in again much better competition etc. For example Crosby has 6 harts right now with no europeans or americans
I'll have to take your word for it as I'm not old enough to ahve seen him play live but really how much does that add to the eqaution.
Sure but those are single seasons in 20 year careers and the difference once again isn't huge here (06-07 and 13-14), if at all in the regular season and we have 12 seasons in Crosby's prime 10-11 and 12-13 where crosby definitely played at a level equal to Jean in 56 if not higher..
I guess one can perfer it but once again even so it's nothing definitive and large by any measure.
We will agree to disagree here as I think that the totality of Crosby's career is greater than Beliveau and that Crosby passed Jean several seasons ago.
0% chance crosby is getting 2010 or 2019
He finished 3rd in 2010 and 2nd in 2019 . So, in a league with no Europeans, he wins both of those trophies.
Exact same line of thinking is why I have Ovechkin > Hull Sr.
| Hull - points | Ovi - CAD only points | Ovi actual goals | Hull - goal finishes | Ovi - CAD only goals | |
1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
2 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
5 | 5 | 1 | 2 | 1 | |
6 | 6 | 1 | 2 | 1 | |
7 | 6 | 3 | 3 | 1 | |
9 | 6 | 3 | 4 | 2 | |
7 | 4 | 5 | 2 | ||
8 | 4 | 6 | 3 | ||
8 | 5 | 3 | |||
9 | 9 | 4 | |||
4 | |||||
5 | |||||
9 |
Not so sure. Hull has 3 Art Ross trophies, where he beat the likes of prime Howe/Richard and Beliveau who seems to be getting insane love. OV has literally 1. Bobby won 7 goal scoring titles to OV's 9, so for him to be beating out legends for longer than OV in the Art Ross race while dominating in the goal scoring race at the same time is what gives him the slight edge still for me, personally.
I think this is a decent way of presenting the information, but still pretty biased towards OV. Hull still looks pretty good when taking into account his better point finishes against tougher competition even when you adjust the europeans out of the league. Also, if you adjust the europeans out of the league, then who is dishing the puck to OV all of these years? lol
Hard disagree
Pretty sure those 3 Art Ross trophies happened when the 3 players you mentioned were in their 30s and Ovi has just been an elite goal scorer for so long.
Beliveau was in his 20s for the 1st one at least, and Howe was just entering his 30s. Howe/Beliveau in their early 30s were still in their prime and competing for Hart trophies even when Hull was winning his last couple Art Ross trophies. There is just no denying Howe/Beliveau in their prime years is tougher competition than what OV had to face.
Yes n 59-60 hull won the Art Ross with this line 70-39-42-81.
Howe was 31 for the 59-60 season and was by far the oldest player in the top 5 scoring year in year out when Hull played.
To me this is just name dropping as in Hull's second Art Ross finish Jean was injured and only played in 43 games and was 30.
Hull is an elite goal scorer but so is Ovi and as outlined above in an apples to apples or Canadian to Canadian comparison he really outdoes Hull.
