Where will Ovechkin rank all time when he retires?

[Video Nasty]

Without the cup McDavid will never sniff the top 5

At worst, he’s already sniffing it.

Don’t worry though. McDavid has a great chance at collecting his second Conn Smythe and his first Cup within the next nine months. Should that happen, along with whatever additional hardware he might rack up this season, he’ll be firmly top 5.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

How was Lafleur’s peak any better than them though. Statistically Jagr did more for longer and on worse teams with clearly worse offensive support. He has Lafleur beat in peak, prime and length of each.

Lafleur just had a higher peak than Jagr. He won the Art Ross 3 years in a row, but also won the Pearson all 3 years, the Hart 2 of those 3 years and was a finalist the year he was robbed due to voter fatigue, and to top it all off, he won the cup all 3 of those years as well.

Jagr not going deep into the playoffs and winning during his insane peak is what gave Lafleur a tiny bit of an edge for peak for me basically. It was extremely close though, and obviously Jagr has him beat everywhere else. But as far as pure peak play, Lafleur stacks well against anybody for me, personally. It doesn't seem like we are just talking about peak play in this thread, so if career and longevity are important than I do understand if Lafleur ranks lower on lists.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

13th

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Harvey
7. Crosby
8. McDavid
9. Hull
10. Bourque
11. Hasek
12. Jagr
13. Ovechkin

What is your reasoning for beliveau over Crosby. ?They have very very similar hardware n award finishes while Crosby did it in a far deeper better NHL. Crosby is the 5th greatest player of all time as of right now. With a cup mcdavid will push him to 6th. If that happens the top 6 players will remain those 6 for a very very long time. Unless bedard comes in to challenge 87/97

 

[jigglysquishy]

What is your reasoning for beliveau over Crosby. They have very very similar hardware n award finishes while Crosby did it in a far deeper better NHL.

Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.

Beliveau had the better single season (1956) and better single playoffs (1956).

I still prefer Beliveau's entire playoff resume over Crosby's, though the gap has narrowed a ton.

Crosby obviously has not done anything post age 36 yet. Beliveau added two second place Hart finishes and two Cups. His 1971 playoff performance at age 39 to cap off his 10th Cup is fantastic.

I think it's possible, maybe ever probable, that Crosby still overtakes Beliveau. But I don't think he's there yet. And I won't get credit for an age 37, 38, and 39 season that hasn't happened yet.

 

[wetcoast]

I got the years slightly wrong, it was more like 2007-2010. It was an insane run, and the player OV was from 2006-2010 was uniquely different than the rest of his career. OV can't be young forever, and he relied more on his athleticism than other players to play at that level. I just don't like this aspect of judging an all time list without having criteria attached to it, because that level that OV hit was a level that Beliveau couldn't sniff, and should be acknowledged.

First of all this is an all time ranking and that means everything gets considered not just peak play.

Second point is let's flesh this out then.

2007-2010 OV

Really sure he scored a ton of goals and he did have the most points over this time period.

The thing is that he scored a total of 19 more points than Crosby but he did it in 25 more games.

75-78 Lafleur

Lafleur does better year, nearly 100 points more than dionne and Clarke but Clarke was stellar defensively and Dionne had very little support compared to Guy but let's leave it there for a minute.

Any of Beliveau's prime years

If by you mean consecutive 4 year segments sure as Jean suffered some injuries but I usually take 3 consecutive years for peak and 7 fro prime but since you said any....

55-56 Jean wins the Art Ross by 9 points over Howe
58-59 Jean is 2nd in scoring to linemate Dickie Moore by 5 points but misses 6 games that year
56-57 Jean is 3rd in points with 84 in 69 games , 1 point behind Ted Lindsay and 5 behind Gordie Howe. (Howe BTW probably has a better peak than Lafleur and Ovi here from 51-54 with a 77 point spread over his libnemate Lindsay and 90 points over Richard.
60-61 Jean is second in scoring behind linemate Geoffrion who had a career year with his line of 64-50-45-95

The rest of OV's prime years

Which ones are those exactly?

The rest of Lafleur's prime years

That's only 2 more years on those Hab dynasty teams 78-79 he was 3rd in scoring and 79-80 where he was 3rd again besides that he wasn't really an uber elite player anymore.

Is how I would rank them, and I think thats pretty universal. If Jean is considered to have a better career than OV and Lafleur thats fine, but we should at least be able to point out that at their best Jean was the worst of the 3.

I think that's a very subjective comment as Jean was competing against Howe for the most part and had injuries and Ovi wasn't a hell of alot better than crosby over that time period just played in 25 more games.

Like stated upthread I'd take both Jagr and Howe's 4 year peaks over Guy or Ovi.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.

Beliveau had the better single season (1956) and better single playoffs (1956).

I still prefer Beliveau's entire playoff resume over Crosby's, though the gap has narrowed a ton.

Crosby obviously has not done anything post age 36 yet. Beliveau added two second place Hart finishes and two Cups. His 1971 playoff performance at age 39 to cap off his 10th Cup is fantastic.

I think it's possible, maybe ever probable, that Crosby still overtakes Beliveau. But I don't think he's there yet. And I won't get credit for an age 37, 38, and 39 season that hasn't happened yet.

Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.

Beliveau had the better single season (1956) and better single playoffs (1956).

I still prefer Beliveau's entire playoff resume over Crosby's, though the gap has narrowed a ton.

Crosby obviously has not done anything post age 36 yet. Beliveau added two second place Hart finishes and two Cups. His 1971 playoff performance at age 39 to cap off his 10th Cup is fantastic.

I think it's possible, maybe ever probable, that Crosby still overtakes Beliveau. But I don't think he's there yet. And I won't get credit for an age 37, 38, and 39 season that hasn't happened yet.

We have to take the fact that Crosby has been playing in a 30-32 team league with a great internation pool of players to compete with in comparison. Not to mention only 2 round playoffs in jeans time. What makes his 56 playoffs better than any of crosbys 2008, 09, 2017, 2018 playoffs? Crosby had 21 in 14 after 3 rounds in 08, 28 points in 17 games after 3 rounds in 09, 21 points in 12 after 2 rounds in 18, even 19 in 13 after 2 in 2010. Factor in again much better competition etc. For example Crosby has 6 harts right now with no europeans or americans

 

[wetcoast]

Beliveau was consistently and comfortably better than Crosby defensively.

I'll have to take your word for it as I'm not old enough to ahve seen him play live but really how much does that add to the eqaution.

for example if Jean is a 1000 on a collective scale of points on how we are grading forwards is that defensive edge worth more than 25-50 points overall?

Beliveau had the better single season (1956) and better single playoffs (1956).

Sure but those are single seasons in 20 year careers and the difference once again isn't huge here (06-07 and 13-14), if at all in the regular season and we have 12 seasons in Crosby's prime 10-11 and 12-13 where crosby definitely played at a level equal to Jean in 56 if not higher..

I still prefer Beliveau's entire playoff resume over Crosby's, though the gap has narrowed a ton.

I guess one can perfer it but once again even so it's nothing definitive and large by any measure.

Crosby obviously has not done anything post age 36 yet. Beliveau added two second place Hart finishes and two Cups. His 1971 playoff performance at age 39 to cap off his 10th Cup is fantastic.

Well that's unlikely to happen in a salary cap NHL but I'll go out on a limb here and say post 30 Jean doesn't stack up to Crosby that great although if crosby were to do a Bourque and head over to colorado that could change (I know it won't happen so it's an era thing)

I think it's possible, maybe ever probable, that Crosby still overtakes Beliveau. But I don't think he's there yet. And I won't get credit for an age 37, 38, and 39 season that hasn't happened yet.

We will agree to disagree here as I think that the totality of Crosby's career is greater than Beliveau and that Crosby passed Jean several seasons ago.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby would have 6 harts in beliveaus situation
2007,2010,2013,2014,2016, 2019