Where will Leon Draisaitl rank all-time by the end of his career?

[TheGoldenJet]

@jigglysquishy ranked Malkin 11th on his list of greatest post-expansion centres (see post #402). The Athletic ranked Malkin 10th among centres (link). If you're citing the Athletic's list as accurate

Please show me where I said that this list is “accurate”.

I maintain that the NHL99 list was correct in rating Malkin above Trottier, who was #31 on the HFBoards users list which is now seven years old. It did have some of its own issues (such as overrating the popular Teemu Selanne), but was correct on the point of rating Malkin above Trottier.

The issue with the outdated and highly inaccurate HFBoards users list is that it is heavily biased, due to primarily North Americans doing the voting. Some of them have great opinions and knowledge, others, not so much. But that situation is going to objectively create real bias. Especially against a Russian player in Malkin, who is already being underrated to meme-like levels.

Malkin as a Russian is going to be lower down on a list made by North American HFBoards users than he should be. That is how a North American echo chamber generally works.

The solution to this would be to create a more representative voting panel for the next HFBoards project (the one that plans to include McDavid). Limit it to a smaller percentage of North Americans, and then include more Russian, Slovak, Swedish, etc voters. This is how you eliminate bias from your lists.

Second, a player like Malkin, who was also being ranked in the HF users list in the middle of his career before scoring 1000 points, is also going to have a second layer of bias leveled against him in addition to the Russian factor: that of not yet having the nostalgia factor of retired players (many of whom were inferior players to him). We are seeing this phenomenon with Connor McDavid now, who is still being listed behind vastly inferior players on some people’s lists.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Malkin is mentioned as a comparable given his proximity to another GOAT but this fails to acknowledge that Crosby and Malkin spent the vast majority of their time on separate lines; a major factor in the Pens winning three Cups.

Sure, I think the fact that Crosby and malkin spent basically their entire peak years on separate lines at even strength deserves some credit.

Malkin, by age 25, was pacing for the Top 25/30 range but injuries keeps him in the Top 50ish range

I disagree with your assessment of having Malkin ranked that low.

 

[daver]

Here is where I disagree with you a little.

Malkin had his share of injuries, but he also had a better peak, prime, and career than Forsberg, so how can he be rated near him? He has improved his position since seven years ago, IMO.

Forsberg was rated 51st in the last HOH section ratings. Yzerman was 40th and Sakic was 32nd.

Where would you have Malkin?

Sure, I think the fact that Crosby and malkin spent basically their entire peak years on separate lines at even strength deserves some credit.

It's not about giving credit to Crosby and Malkin, it's more about recognizing that Draisaitl playing so much time with McDavid is the exception, not the norm, when you have two franchise C's on a team.

Sakic and Forsberg don't get extra marks for playing separate, nor do Yzerman/Federov or Beliveau/H. Richard.

Maybe it's just a matter of time before Draisaitl proves he can carry a line consistently to the benefit of the Oilers in the playoffs but until then, it's a reasonable critique if he going up against the likes of Malkin, Forsberg, Sakic; players with similar offensive primes.

 

[daver]

2022 playoffs

McDrai at ES were 22 goals for, 9 against

McDavid at ES was 9 goals for, 8 goals against

Draisaitl at ES was 1 goal for, 9 goals against


2023 playoffs

McDrai at ES were 8 goals for, 4 against

McDavid at ES was 3 goals for, 3 goals against

Draisaitl at ES was 6 goal for, 7 goals against


2024 playoffs

McDrai at ES were 8 goals for, 5 against

McDavid at ES was 20 goals for, 9 goals against

Draisaitl at ES was 15 goals for, 15 goals against


Total

McDrai at ES were 38 goals for, 18 against

McDavid at ES was 32 goals for, 20 goals against

Draisaitl at ES was 22 goals for, 31 goals against

Here are their SF% when together and when separate and most common linemates when away from each other:

2022

McDrai: SF% - 50% PLUS 11

McDavid: SF% - 60% (Kane, Puljujarvi) PLUS 1

Draisaitl: SF% - 36% (Hyman, Yamamoto) MINUS 8



2023

McDrai: SF% - 54% PLUS 4

McDavid: SF% - 60% (RNH, Hyman) ZERO

Draisaitl: SF% - 51% (Yamamoto, RNH) MINUS 1



2024

McDrai: SF% - 66% PLUS 3

McDavid: SF% - 56% (RNH, Hyman) PLUS 11

Draisaitl: SF% - 41% (Kane, Holloway) Zero


Total

McDrai: SF% - 55% PLUS 18

McDavid: SF% - 56% PLUS 12

Draisaitl: SF% - 44% MINUS 9


COMMENT

McDavid clearly was significantly superior than Draisaitl when on his own line.

And there is a pretty clear correlation between SF% and goals for and against.

McDavid was better with Draisaitl but a lot of that can be attributed to the McDrai/Kane line having tremendous success in 2022 (PLUS 8) despite being outshot. The next year they were ZERO despite a better SF%.

And to be fair, Draisaitl's MINUS 8 in 2022 is also a bit of a statistical anomaly.

You can give a marginal edge to McDavid in quality of linemates but it is clear that Draisaitl is not getting the scraps as many try to claim as an excuse for an inferior ES performance. When he had either Hyman or RNH on his line, he was a MINUS 4 and with a 46% SF%.

 

[OilerTitanFan]

If Germany beats Canada in the olympics gold medal game, Draisaitl scores a hatrick and Germany wins 3-2, on top of that, Draisaitl has the most points in the olympics, he will cement himself into the top 10. No other hockey player has singlehandedly dragged a non-top 6 team into the gold medal game. The closest thing to this is Jagr and Hasek beating canada at Nagano but Jagr did nothing in that game, it was all Hasek.

Hasek will be forever remembered for beating that hasbeen Patrick Roy no matter how you rank them.

Draisaitl beating mcdavid, mackinnon, makar, marner, etc... this would be unprecedented.

 

[Fatass]

Let’s see if he wins. If he can he moves into the top fifty, and higher depending on his contribution to the winning. Right now though he’s (imo) a good player but not one of the best. He does get to play with McDavid.

 

[Wings4Life]

Yzerman was 40th and Sakic was 32nd.

Where would you have Malkin?

Malkin was a better player than both, and I would rate him above both.

 

[daver]

Malkin was a better player than both, and I would rate him above both.

Rate him as a better player? I can buy that. In an all-time ranking, that's tougher.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Malkin was a better player than both, and I would rate him above both.

It's a balancing act between peak, prime, and career and how much you value each. I think Malkin had the highest peak of Sakic, Yzerman, and Forsberg but had so many injury plagued seasons. Overall I think they're all pretty close. Anywhere from 30-50 depending on what you value - also expect Drai to land in that group.

 

[Wings4Life]

Rate him as a better player? I can buy that. In an all-time ranking, that's tougher.

Rate him higher in an all-time sense. He has done enough, IMO.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

It's a balancing act between peak, prime, and career and how much you value each. I think Malkin had the highest peak of Sakic, Yzerman, and Forsberg but had so many injury plagued seasons. Overall I think they're all pretty close. Anywhere from 30-50 depending on what you value - also expect Drai to land in that group.

I don’t think Forsberg is close to Malkin/Sakic in a career value sense anymore.

 

[daver]

Rate him higher in an all-time sense. He has done enough, IMO.

He was 52nd in the HOH list as of Nov. 2018. He added yet another Top 10 PPG finish after that so it's doubtful he would have moved at all in an updated list.

I agree he hit the highest peak out of the group of Yzerman, Sakic, and Forsberg but the lack of full seasons vs. Sakic (#32) and Yzerman (#40) has to be figured in there somehow. His peak wasn't so dominant that it makes up that. Yzerman matched his RS peak/prime, Sakic matched his playoff peak/prime.

That being said, Draisaitl is a tough one to gauge vs. these four players given he hasn't done quite enough, IMO, sans McDavid, to rival the best of those four players.

 

[Wings4Life]

He was 52nd in the HOH list as of Nov. 2018. He added yet another Top 10 PPG finish after that so it's doubtful he would have moved at all in an updated list.

I don't want to derail this Draisaitl thread, but I feel Malkin was too low on that list created by HF users 7 years ago. And he's done more since then to move up.

I agree he hit the highest peak out of the group of Yzerman, Sakic, and Forsberg but the lack of full seasons vs. Sakic (#32) and Yzerman (#40) has to be figured in there somehow. His peak wasn't so dominant that it makes up that. Yzerman matched his RS peak/prime, Sakic matched his playoff peak/prime.

I think Malkin has the combination of both RS peak and playoff accolades that takes him over both. He now has good career totals as well, which he didn't have before. It's an interesting debate either way.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

In 2023 he played with McDavid in the playoffs primarily for two reasons. The first was because he had a significant high ankle sprain which made it hard to play defense as a center. The second reason is that they are so dynamic together that the team as a whole is often more dangerous with the combo together. They can do this when needed because Nugent-Hopkins can mind the fort to allow them this luxury. Together over the last three playoff the team has a 69.09% GF% with the two on the ice. They score at a rate of 6.1 5 vs 5 goals per 60.

Last year Draisaitl also played the second half of the playoff with broken ribs and a significant hand injury. In the first two rounds, before the injuries, he was absolutely dominant. Despite the injuries he ended up with 49 points in 37 games including 25 goals over the last two years. His last year he was health in the playoffs was 2022. He had 32 points in 16 games. Malkin never came close to that level of production. Malkin's top year was 1.5 pts/gm and matching Draisaitl's second best season. Draisaitl has 5 years above 1.2 pts/gm in the playoffs and Malkin has 2.

You can dismiss it all you want as being a product of McDavid. The people who watched every one of those games know differently. I've seen every playoff game Draisaitl played. I was also a season ticket holder throughout the 80's. I have no hesitation to say that Draisaitl's playoff performance rank with the best in Oiler history and would only put them behind Gretzky and peak McDavid.

You also talk about Crosby and Malkin being successful apart, but one of the reasons this was necessary was that Malkin never successfully adjusted his game to fit with Crosby. Draisaitl has the ability to play a completely different style when with McDavid than he does when he is alone. In doing so he raises McDavid's game as much as McDavid raises his, as any serious Oiler fan can attest.

In the end none of this will sway you. I am perfectly aware of this. But you're still wrong about the player regardless of your willingness to accept it so there is that.

This is complete BS. Malkin and Crosby were incredibly dominant together at even strength, they just extremely rarely played together after 2010.

They clearly accepted their roles on the team and didn't force the coach to play them together whenever they struggled to stay in the Art Ross race

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Era adjusted stats are garbage dude. They are simply not close to reflecting reality.

Explained it many times, but they use league averages to adjust, where there has been a very clear outsized increase for top scorers due to rule changes. You can see it among the 10th and 20th scorers too.

Era adjusted would put Crosby finishing 3rd behind Malkin and Ovechkin in 08-09 equivalent to Draisaitl finishing 7th last year. Anyone with eyes knows that's wrong.

Era adjusted has that big trio from last gen as approximately a Panarin level player, which is nonsense.

Best way to adjust is to see percent increase from 10th or 20th scorer, not the league average. The rule changes disproportionately helped offensive players.

Now I'm convinced you're trolling tbh or not even a Pittsburgh fan. Come to think of it never seen you on the Pens board.

You can look up his post history, most of his posts are denigrating Crosby and Lemieux lol. Which he has every right to do, but the Penguins fan thing comes off as disingenuous.

 

[GoldenKnight]

It's not about giving credit to Crosby and Malkin, it's more about recognizing that Draisaitl playing so much time with McDavid is the exception, not the norm, when you have two franchise C's on a team.

Sakic and Forsberg don't get extra marks for playing separate, nor do Yzerman/Federov or Beliveau/H. Richard.

Maybe it's just a matter of time before Draisaitl proves he can carry a line consistently to the benefit of the Oilers in the playoffs but until then, it's a reasonable critique if he going up against the likes of Malkin, Forsberg, Sakic; players with similar offensive primes.

Semantics.

Whether you choose to give credit to stars that play apart, or choose to dock stars that play on the same line (as in Draisaitl’s case), the net effect is the same.

 

[authentic]

Please show me where I said that this list is “accurate”.

I maintain that the NHL99 list was correct in rating Malkin above Trottier, who was #31 on the HFBoards users list which is now seven years old. It did have some of its own issues (such as overrating the popular Teemu Selanne), but was correct on the point of rating Malkin above Trottier.

The issue with the outdated and highly inaccurate HFBoards users list is that it is heavily biased, due to primarily North Americans doing the voting. Some of them have great opinions and knowledge, others, not so much. But that situation is going to objectively create real bias. Especially against a Russian player in Malkin, who is already being underrated to meme-like levels.

Malkin as a Russian is going to be lower down on a list made by North American HFBoards users than he should be. That is how a North American echo chamber generally works.

The solution to this would be to create a more representative voting panel for the next HFBoards project (the one that plans to include McDavid). Limit it to a smaller percentage of North Americans, and then include more Russian, Slovak, Swedish, etc voters. This is how you eliminate bias from your lists.

Second, a player like Malkin, who was also being ranked in the HF users list in the middle of his career before scoring 1000 points, is also going to have a second layer of bias leveled against him in addition to the Russian factor: that of not yet having the nostalgia factor of retired players (many of whom were inferior players to him). We are seeing this phenomenon with Connor McDavid now, who is still being listed behind vastly inferior players on some people’s lists.

What would be the case for Trottier above Malkin at this point?

 

[daver]

Here are their SF% when together and when separate and most common linemates when away from each other:

2022

McDrai: SF% - 50% PLUS 11

McDavid: SF% - 60% (Kane, Puljujarvi) PLUS 1

Draisaitl: SF% - 36% (Hyman, Yamamoto) MINUS 8



2023

McDrai: SF% - 54% PLUS 4

McDavid: SF% - 60% (RNH, Hyman) ZERO

Draisaitl: SF% - 51% (Yamamoto, RNH) MINUS 1



2024

McDrai: SF% - 66% PLUS 3

McDavid: SF% - 56% (RNH, Hyman) PLUS 11

Draisaitl: SF% - 41% (Kane, Holloway) Zero


Total

McDrai: SF% - 55% PLUS 18

McDavid: SF% - 56% PLUS 12

Draisaitl: SF% - 44% MINUS 9


COMMENT

McDavid clearly was significantly superior than Draisaitl when on his own line.

And there is a pretty clear correlation between SF% and goals for and against.

McDavid was better with Draisaitl but a lot of that can be attributed to the McDrai/Kane line having tremendous success in 2022 (PLUS 8) despite being outshot. The next year they were ZERO despite a better SF%.

And to be fair, Draisaitl's MINUS 8 in 2022 is also a bit of a statistical anomaly.

You can give a marginal edge to McDavid in quality of linemates but it is clear that Draisaitl is not getting the scraps as many try to claim as an excuse for an inferior ES performance. When he had either Hyman or RNH on his line, he was a MINUS 4 and with a 46% SF%.

Since 2021, in the regular season:

Draisaitl and McDavid together: PLUS 72 with a SF% of 55

McDavid on his own: PLUS 49 with a SF% of 57

Draisaitl on his own: PLUS 29 with SF% of 49 (most common linemates - Yamamoto, RNH)


MacKinnon is PLUS 121 with a SF% of 57%
Playoff MacKinnon is PLUS 27 with a SF% of 61% (with other players like Landy, Nichuskin and Lehkonen being his most common linemates in most years)

Kucherov (since 2022) is PLUS 39 with a SF% of 62%
Playoff Kucherov is PLUS 13 with a SF% of 52%


COMMENT

McDavid has similar numbers to his playoff numbers. Clearly can carry a line offensively and not surprisingly does better when Draisaitl is on his line (which noone is disputing).

Draisaitl clearly does not do as well on his own line, although is better than his playoff numbers, and is not as good as Kucherov at ES and significantly worse than MacKinnon, most notably in the playoffs. In 2022,

 

[Perfect_Drug]

These 'takes' on west conf players by east coast fans is absolutely hilarious to read.

It's like reading a review of a movie they haven't watched, but heard about from other reviewers who also haven't watched the movie.

 

[daver]

These 'takes' on west conf players by east coast fans is absolutely hilarious to read.

It's like reading a review of a movie they haven't watched, but heard about from other reviewers who also haven't watched the movie.

What 'take' are you finding hilarious?

That Draisaitl maybe, just maybe, has had his numbers inflated by playing with McDavid? At least to the extent that he is clearly behind MacKinnon as an ES player and maybe, just maybe won't be rated as high as other C's all-time who were also better as ES players?

 

[Perfect_Drug]

What 'take' are you finding hilarious?

That Draisaitl maybe, just maybe, has had his numbers inflated by playing with McDavid? At least to the extent that he is clearly behind MacKinnon as an ES player and maybe, just maybe won't be rated as high as other C's all-time who were also better as ES players?

You're talking like Mackinnon doesn't play with Makar and Rantanen. Like Kucherov doesn't have Point or Hedman.

Like Mario Lemieux didnt play with Jagr, Tocchett Coffey, K.Stevens, and Francis.

You're creating a fake new standard only for Draisaitl and only applying it to Draisaitl.



FYI we saw this same narrative spun by the Toronto media with Messier in the 80's.

 

[daver]

You're talking like Mackinnon doesn't play with Makar and Rantanen. Like Kucherov doesn't have Point or Hedman.

Like Mario Lemieux didnt play with Jagr, Tocchett Coffey, K.Stevens, and Francis.

You're creating a fake new standard only for Draisaitl and only applying it to Draisaitl.



FYI we saw this same narrative spun by the Toronto media with Messier in the 80's.

Mac has been just as good in the playoffs with or without Rantanen.

And Draisaitl doesn't have to face the other team's best players/best defenders like they do.

And isn't Bouchard 3rd all-time in playoff PPG?

These are just excuses at this point. Draisaitl has had 8 years to show he can be a franchise C on a consistent basis so the Oilers could throw out a 1-2 punch like many great teams have before.

And since you appear to be super sensitive about anything that goes against the narrative, I would say the Draisaitl is pacing for a 50 to 70 all-time placing. Would have a hard time putting him above Forsberg/Malkin.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Mac has been just as good in the playoffs with or without Rantanen.

And Draisaitl doesn't have to face the other team's best players/best defenders like they do.

And isn't Bouchard 3rd all-time in playoff PPG?

These are just excuses at this point. Draisaitl has had 8 years to show he can be a franchise C on a consistent basis so the Oilers could throw out a 1-2 punch like many great teams have before.

And since you appear to be super sensitive about anything that goes against the narrative, I would say the Draisaitl is pacing for a 50 to 70 all-time placing. Would have a hard time putting him above Forsberg/Malkin.

I mean... I honestly can't tell if Daver is trolling me or not.

But yeah... Draisaitl totally takes on easier competition in comparison to...

Forsberg who played behind Sakic, and Malkin who played behind Crosby.


Nonono this standard only applies to Draisaitl?