Where will Leon Draisaitl rank all-time by the end of his career?

[authentic]

You are throwing alot at the wall that doesn't doesn't stick with the eye test or reality.

When McDavid went down and Leon won his Art ross and Hart he rose to the occasion.

When he holds the all time playoff series assist record he isn't just a passenger.

His playoff resume is elite among elites and consistent and the only "blemishes" is when he was playing through injuries like the one sustained this past playoffs.

Oh BTW he is tied for league scoring right now but sure he is a product of Mcdavid just rings hollow an agenda or false narrative.

Edit: he is second 2 points behind Mack who didn't get 2 assists last night with some guy named Makara on the ice.......wait he actually did which is ironic because elite players tend to play with other elite players.....


Leon drives plays as good or better than Jagr so just stop with this he isn't a positive without McDavid Bullshit.

Leon drives play as good or better than Jagr ?

 

[daver]

So basically your argument comes down to ES performances in the playoffs and that's it?

Sounds arbitrary at best and selectively foolish overall as all elite players play with other elite players as per their coaches, even more so on teams that lack overall top end depth.

To the people that like this comment do you apply the same metric and standard to all players, ie pick any star on a dynasty and say well he can't be that good unless I see some specific performance away from those other stars...well if a team wins a sC then that metric goes out the window I know how the SC counting game is played.

The irony is that the same people that know that the Oilers are and have been basically a flawed SC contender team will still hold Leon to a standard they won't hold to other players, the hypocrisy is simply amazing.

So what is he? A franchise C, or as I have argued, more like a C/W hybrid; a label that can be also applied to McDavid given how much time they have spent together.

I am much more confident in labeling McDavid as a generational offensive centre who produces regardless of his linemates; a label that can be applied to about 10 or 15 players all-time, than I am of Draisaitl producing the same numbers on any other team.

Kucherov and MacKinnon have a better track record of leading their teams, and recently in a dominant fashion, without necessarily getting a lot of support.

Giving Draisaitl 100% credit for his offensive numbers while not acknowledging the amount of ice-time he has shared with McDavid is not reasonable.

For example, I do not consider Jagr's 95/96 season as his peak or as dominant as his 98/99 season due to the Mario factor. I think it is clear that while he was an Art Ross threat, his production was influenced that year by Mario.

And before you go all sanctimonious again, this is something that would keep him behind other players with similar offensive resumes i.e. he is clearly on the same tier as Kuch and Mac for his era.

 

[daver]

To the people that like this comment do you apply the same metric and standard to all players, ie pick any star on a dynasty and say well he can't be that good unless I see some specific performance away from those other stars...well if a team wins a sC then that metric goes out the window I know how the SC counting game is played.

When a team hasn't won a SC, there is a reason why. Draisaitl not producing positively on his line at ES is one of the reasons. McDavid has significantly outproduced him at ES since 2022 when on his own line and it is not because of linemates, or even if you can argue there is a bit of an advantage in linemates, McDavid takes on the harder matchups.

Draisaitl needs to step up as the Oilers go deeper into the playoffs.

The Oilers runned and gunned to the 3rd round then got outgunned by the AVs in 2022. Not much to critique there other than to not overrate both McDavid's and Draisaitl's point totals; the Oilers were clearly trying to out offence the other team with little regard to defensive hockey.

Draisaitl had one point in the last four games against Vegas in 2023, and while he gets full marks for being better than McDavid through 2 rounds last year, he was under a PPG vs. the Stars and underperformed in the SC finals.

Some will point to injuries but then not point to injuries when comparing Draisaitl's regular season resume to Kucherov or MacKinnon.

 

[Gerulaitis]

He should be in Top 100.

Somewhere between #51 and #100.

I can't see him in Top Fifty, unless he wins many more trophies in the coming years.

 

[Gerulaitis]

If he wins a cup, I would say Top25.

If not he is a safe Top50.

If he is winning multiple cups + maybe a Conn Smythe he could flirt with Top10

Top 10 Oilers definitely

 

[wetcoast]

I can see Moose being too hard to catch but Big Phil is already over rated and an interesting name because a lot of the same arguments holding back Leon (that guy McDavid) apply even more to Phil right?

Also Leon is a much better playoff performer than Phil ever was.

So what is he? A franchise C, or as I have argued, more like a C/W hybrid; a label that can be also applied to McDavid given how much time they have spent together.

I am much more confident in labeling McDavid as a generational offensive centre who produces regardless of his linemates; a label that can be applied to about 10 or 15 players all-time, than I am of Draisaitl producing the same numbers on any other team.

Kucherov and MacKinnon have a better track record of leading their teams, and recently in a dominant fashion, without necessarily getting a lot of support.

Giving Draisaitl 100% credit for his offensive numbers while not acknowledging the amount of ice-time he has shared with McDavid is not reasonable.

For example, I do not consider Jagr's 95/96 season as his peak or as dominant as his 98/99 season due to the Mario factor. I think it is clear that while he was an Art Ross threat, his production was influenced that year by Mario.

And before you go all sanctimonious again, this is something that would keep him behind other players with similar offensive resumes i.e. he is clearly on the same tier as Kuch and Mac for his era.

Mack and Kuch don't have a lot of support?

Whatever it is that you on are please share because it sounds mind-blowing.

Meanwhile Draisatl will easily be the second top scorer during his time in the league, by a significant degree and you will question his ability to drive his own line.........gotchya.

When a team hasn't won a SC, there is a reason why. Draisaitl not producing positively on his line at ES is one of the reasons. McDavid has significantly outproduced him at ES since 2022 when on his own line and it is not because of linemates, or even if you can argue there is a bit of an advantage in linemates, McDavid takes on the harder matchups.

Draisaitl needs to step up as the Oilers go deeper into the playoffs.

The Oilers runned and gunned to the 3rd round then got outgunned by the AVs in 2022. Not much to critique there other than to not overrate both McDavid's and Draisaitl's point totals; the Oilers were clearly trying to out offence the other team with little regard to defensive hockey.

Draisaitl had one point in the last four games against Vegas in 2023, and while he gets full marks for being better than McDavid through 2 rounds last year, he was under a PPG vs. the Stars and underperformed in the SC finals.

Some will point to injuries but then not point to injuries when comparing Draisaitl's regular season resume to Kucherov or MacKinnon.

Look if you can't see how dominant and elite Leon is in the playoffs and then point to his play when injured and only in the lineup because of the playoffs I don't know what to say except that every comparable must lead their team to a SC, at ES of course, since you like to set arbitrary standards for Leon and not others.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Hard not to escape the Malkin comparisons.

i think top-50 is safe.

 

[daver]

Mack and Kuch don't have a lot of support?

To the tune that a teammate, one who they have 50 to 60% of their point shares with, outscores them the majority of the time in both the regular season and the playoffs?

No, they do not have that level of support.

 

[wetcoast]

To the tune that a teammate, one who they have 50 to 60% of their point shares with, outscores them the majority of the time in both the regular season and the playoffs?

No, they do not have that level of support.

Both Kuch and Mack have collective better linemates and Dmen to play with and both also would be second fiddle to McDavid so keep on assuming that Leon is being carried as your posts imply.

Anyone watching him can see what an elite player he is and has been especially in the playoffs.

 

[daver]

Anyone watching him can see what an elite player he is and has been especially in the playoffs.

Not at ES away from McDavid.

Both Kuch and Mack have collective better linemates and Dmen to play with and both also would be second fiddle to McDavid so keep on assuming that Leon is being carried as your posts imply.

Kucherov outscored his teammate by 54 points last year. Seems like he is able to put up elite points when his linemates aren't.

If they played with McDavid, MacKinnon, and likely Kucherov, would be on separate lines to create depth.

Why can't the Oilers consistently create depth by separating them? That's the question that never gets answered.

"They are too good together" is one answer. So why bother separating them ever then?

Again, all-time great C's don't need excuses as to why they cannot produce. All-time great players produce regardless.

 

[Duke74]

Not at ES away from McDavid.



Kucherov outscored his teammate by 54 points last year. Seems like he is able to put up elite points when his linemates aren't.

If they played with McDavid, MacKinnon, and likely Kucherov, would be on separate lines to create depth.

Why can't the Oilers consistently create depth by separating them? That's the question that never gets answered.

"They are too good together" is one answer. So why bother separating them ever then?

Again, all-time great C's don't need excuses as to why they cannot produce. All-time great players produce regardless.

I don't know about that. Do the Lightning create depth by separating Kucherov from Point, a 50-goal, 90-point player? Do the Avs create depth by separating Mac from Rantanen, a 50-goal, 100 point player? Boston, in the past, created an elite super-line with Pasta, Marchand, and Bergeron. Lots of teams stack their top lines. Whether or not it's a good strategy depends on the situation and on who you ask.

The problem is that previous Oilers management bungled things up so badly that there was no depth. When Draisaitl played away from McDavid, he played with sub-NHL players: Chiasson, Rieder, Kahun, Yamamoto, Khaira...how many of those are even in the NHL today? Even now, when the Oilers finally have some better depth, McDavid reaps its benefits while Draisaitl plays with two castoffs in Podkolzin and Kapanen and is still putting up points with them at ES.

 

[daver]

I don't know about that. Do the Lightning create depth by separating Kucherov from Point, a 50-goal, 90-point player? Do the Avs create depth by separating Mac from Rantanen, a 50-goal, 100 point player? Boston, in the past, created an elite super-line with Pasta, Marchand, and Bergeron. Lots of teams stack their top lines. Whether or not it's a good strategy depends on the situation and on who you ask.

He is a 40 goal, PPG player playing with a Top 3 forward of his era. If he was a 50 goal, 90 point player on his own, then they might split them up.

Rantanan isn't on the same level as McDavid or Draisaitl.

The excuse for the Oilers has been their lack of scoring depth; having two franchise C's on the same line doesn't create depth.

The problem is that previous Oilers management bungled things up so badly that there was no depth. When Draisaitl played away from McDavid, he played with sub-NHL players: Chiasson, Rieder, Kahun, Yamamoto, Khaira...how many of those are even in the NHL today? Even now, when the Oilers finally have some better depth, McDavid reaps its benefits while Draisaitl plays with two castoffs in Podkolzin and Kapanen and is still putting up points with them at ES.

We have been hearing this for 8/9 years now. All-time great talents produce regardless.

 

[Duke74]

The excuse for the Oilers has been their lack of scoring depth; having two franchise C's on the same line doesn't create depth.

We have been hearing this for 8/9 years now. All-time great talents produce regardless.

But Draisaitl still produces with his subpar wingers. Obviously his production with McDavid will be higher. That doesn't discount what he's done over his career nor should it.

 

[daver]

But Draisaitl still produces with his subpar wingers. Obviously his production with McDavid will be higher. That doesn't discount what he's done over his career nor should it.

Not in the playoffs. And he has almost as much time with players like RNH and Hyman as McDavid has had in the playoffs.

McDavid has significantly outproduced Draisaitl while facing the other team's best players.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Draisaitl will easily clear Malkin and Forsberg in the all-time rankings. High level play, consistency, and durability matter, and what Draisaitl has achieved over seven consecutive seasons—and likely counting—is similar or not far off from a cherry picked seven best seasons from Malkin and Forsberg combined.

Malkin has proven he can steer the ship without Crosby and still dominate over long stretches.

 

[wetcoast]

Not in the playoffs. And he has almost as much time with players like RNH and Hyman as McDavid has had in the playoffs.

McDavid has significantly outproduced Draisaitl while facing the other team's best players.

Leon has produced in the playoffs, even while playing with 2 injuries that would sideline any player in the regular season.

At this point you are just trolling as the facts are there.

In the playoffs since 16-17, the first year that he was in, he is 3rd in overall points and second in PPG but he isn't producing in your mind?

Last 3 seasons he, along with McDavid have been hitting it out of the park, and that's with Leon playing injured for double digit games.

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Malkin has proven he can steer the ship without Crosby and still dominate over long stretches.

Sure but Draisatl has had the longer and more consistent elite prime.

Malkin at times has dipped and sure he might have a pure higher peak than Leon, staying power means something all time right?

 

[PuckG]

Leon has a league leading 8 GWG on top of everything else he’s doing.

The trolls above aren’t fooling anyone. Imagine genuinely trying to argue against Draisaitl’s playoff performances.

 

[Duke74]

Not in the playoffs. And he has almost as much time with players like RNH and Hyman as McDavid has had in the playoffs.

McDavid has significantly outproduced Draisaitl while facing the other team's best players.

The only year that McDavid "significantly" outproduced Draisaitl in the playoffs was last year, a year in which Draisaitl had two debilitating injuries (fractured ribs and a broken hand).

Prior to last year, Draisaitl actually led McDavid in career playoff points.

 

[Fourier]

So what is he? A franchise C, or as I have argued, more like a C/W hybrid; a label that can be also applied to McDavid given how much time they have spent together.

I am much more confident in labeling McDavid as a generational offensive centre who produces regardless of his linemates; a label that can be applied to about 10 or 15 players all-time, than I am of Draisaitl producing the same numbers on any other team.

Kucherov and MacKinnon have a better track record of leading their teams, and recently in a dominant fashion, without necessarily getting a lot of support.

Giving Draisaitl 100% credit for his offensive numbers while not acknowledging the amount of ice-time he has shared with McDavid is not reasonable.

For example, I do not consider Jagr's 95/96 season as his peak or as dominant as his 98/99 season due to the Mario factor. I think it is clear that while he was an Art Ross threat, his production was influenced that year by Mario.

And before you go all sanctimonious again, this is something that would keep him behind other players with similar offensive resumes i.e. he is clearly on the same tier as Kuch and Mac for his era.

Is the bolded actually a serious comment???

Since 2022-23 here are the top linemates and defensemen for each 5 vs 5:

Kucherov

Forwards

1) Point 2382 minutes
2) Hagel 1447 minutes
3) Stamkos 825 minutes
4) Guentzel 312 minutes

Defense

1) Hedman 1447 minutes
2) Raddysh 782 minutes
3) Sergashev 778 minutes


This year his most common linemates are Guentzel 311 minutes, Point 286 minutes, Cirelli 111 minutes. He also played 239 minutes with Hedman. He played 458 minutes:



MacKinnon:

Forwards:
1) Rantanen 2380 minutes
2) Lehkonen 1216 minutes
3) NIchushkin 758 minutes
4) Drouin 694 minutes

Defense:
1) Toews 1954 minutes
2) Makar 1848 minutes
3) Girard 772 minutes

This year his most common linemates are Rantanen 448 minutes, Lehkonen 329 minutes, Colton 93 minutes. He also played 403 minutes with Makar. He played 599 minutes.

Draisaitl

Forwards:
1) Hyman 1129 minutes
2) McDavid 1110 minutes
3) E. Kane 690 minutes
4) Foegele 541 minutes

Defense:
1) Nurse 1258 minutes
2) Bouchard 1206 minutes
3) Ceci 932 minutes

This year his most common linemates are Podkolzin 263 minutes, McDavid 174 minutes, Arvidsson 159 minutes, He played 264 minutes with Bouchard of his 545 minutes.

Please tell me how Draisaitl has more support than MacKinnon or Kucherov.

 

[Video Nasty]

Malkin has proven he can steer the ship without Crosby and still dominate over long stretches.

No one should need to see McDavid develop the weaknesses of Crosby to be convinced by how good Draisaitl is.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Is the bolded actually a serious comment???

Since 2022-23 here are the top linemates and defensemen for each 5 vs 5:

Kucherov

Forwards

1) Point 2382 minutes
2) Hagel 1447 minutes
3) Stamkos 825 minutes
4) Guentzel 312 minutes

Defense

1) Hedman 1447 minutes
2) Raddysh 782 minutes
3) Sergashev 778 minutes


This year his most common linemates are Guentzel 311 minutes, Point 286 minutes, Cirelli 111 minutes. He also played 239 minutes with Hedman. He played 458 minutes:



MacKinnon:

Forwards:
1) Rantanen 2380 minutes
2) Lehkonen 1216 minutes
3) NIchushkin 758 minutes
4) Drouin 694 minutes

Defense:
1) Toews 1954 minutes
2) Makar 1848 minutes
3) Girard 772 minutes

This year his most common linemates are Rantanen 448 minutes, Lehkonen 329 minutes, Colton 93 minutes. He also played 403 minutes with Makar. He played 599 minutes.

Draisaitl

Forwards:
1) Hyman 1129 minutes
2) McDavid 1110 minutes
3) E. Kane 690 minutes
4) Foegele 541 minutes

Defense:
1) Nurse 1258 minutes
2) Bouchard 1206 minutes
3) Ceci 932 minutes

This year his most common linemates are Podkolzin 263 minutes, McDavid 174 minutes, Arvidsson 159 minutes, He played 264 minutes with Bouchard of his 545 minutes.

Please tell me how Draisaitl has more support than MacKinnon or Kucherov.

I mean, it’s daver. Nothing is a serious comment unless you like your commentary biased

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

No one should need to see McDavid develop the weaknesses of Crosby to be convinced by how good Draisaitl is.

Crosby has no weakness. Top 5 all time on every credible list.

 

[Coffey]

Crosby has no weakness. Top 5 all time on every credible list.

His soft skull.

 

[5 14 6 1]

So what is he? A franchise C, or as I have argued, more like a C/W hybrid; a label that can be also applied to McDavid given how much time they have spent together.

I am much more confident in labeling McDavid as a generational offensive centre who produces regardless of his linemates; a label that can be applied to about 10 or 15 players all-time, than I am of Draisaitl producing the same numbers on any other team.

Kucherov and MacKinnon have a better track record of leading their teams, and recently in a dominant fashion, without necessarily getting a lot of support.

Giving Draisaitl 100% credit for his offensive numbers while not acknowledging the amount of ice-time he has shared with McDavid is not reasonable.

For example, I do not consider Jagr's 95/96 season as his peak or as dominant as his 98/99 season due to the Mario factor. I think it is clear that while he was an Art Ross threat, his production was influenced that year by Mario.

And before you go all sanctimonious again, this is something that would keep him behind other players with similar offensive resumes i.e. he is clearly on the same tier as Kuch and Mac for his era.

So Point, Guentzel, Stamkos and Hedman don't count as supporting cast?

How about Rantanen, Makar, Nuke and Landeskog?

This argument is astronomical levels of dumb. Draisaitl is as elite as it gets. A top 5 player of this generation.

 

[daver]

Please tell me how Draisaitl has more support than MacKinnon or Kucherov.

In the last three playoffs, McDavid has been Draisaitl's most common linemate at ES and a negative player at ES when on his own line. Hard not to think that Draisaitl cannot carry a line offensively quite as well and Mac and Kucherov.

BTW, Kucherov outscored his teammates by 54 points last year. That seems like he is able to produce regardless of linemates/ the contribution of linemates

We'll see how this year pans out. As far as McDavid and Draisaitl are concerned, they have nothing to accomplish in the regular season, it's all about the playoffs. They should not care about regular season trophies.

This argument is astronomical levels of dumb. Draisaitl is as elite as it gets. A top 5 player of this generation.

I didn't say he wasn't. What I am saying is I give the edge to Mac and Kucherov, both of whom are pushing into the Top 50ish all-time.

There are lots of players who aren't rated as high as their resume would dictate like Esposito and Kurri given the influence of playing with a GOAT talent. If Draisaitl was playing on his own line most of his career and producing like he has, I would have no issue with rating him higher.

He is not comparable to peak Malkin, a common comparison.