Where does Kucherov rank all time for wingers?

[Zalos]

I think I'd put Kane and Kucherov at around the same level of impact. It just took a lil longer for Kucherov to really hit his groove.

 

[daver]

Kane had 28 points in 22 games during this campaign, in a way lower scoring era, and the infamous game 6 OT winner. Kane put up 92 points as a 33 year old, I've got no hesitation in saying he'd put up monstrous numbers if he was in his 20's during this league's scoring environment as opposed to the suffocating scoring environment he played in.

Ok, Kucherov put up 144 points at age 30. Kane put up 110 points at age 30 (good for 3rd place).

Kane would potentially put up one "monstrous season" while Kucherov added another very solid Art Ross win to his resume.

Hard to compare playoff scoring totals from different scoring environments. High regular season scoring isn't necessarily reflected in the playoffs.

It's really close between them; putting one clearly ahead of the other is not reasonable.

 

[hamzarocks]

Kuch is not remotely close to Jagr. Jagr has 1 less Ross trophy than Kucherov has top-10 point finishes. Jagr is also a significantly better goal scorer.

Kucherov is great and one of the best players of all-time, but not Jagr level.

Kucherov - T-10 point finishes	1/1/3/3/5/7
Jagr - T-10 point finishes	1/1/1/1/1/2/2/5/6/8/9
Kucherov - T-10 goal finishes	2/6/9/10
Jagr - T-10 goal finishes	2/2/2/2/3/4/6/9

Kucherov also has 2022 where he was 2nd in ppg and had 69 pts in 47 games

Also missed a whole season in 2021 where he would have been top 5 most likely as well

Needs 2 more top 3 ross/hart/lindsay finishes and then he is every bit as valuable and impactful as Jagr/Crosby/OV all time

 

[x Tame Impala]

Ok, Kucherov put up 144 points at age 30. Kane put up 110 points at age 30 (good for 3rd place).

Kane would potentially put up one "monstrous season" while Kucherov added another very solid Art Ross win to his resume.

Hard to compare playoff scoring totals from different scoring environments. High regular season scoring isn't necessarily reflected in the playoffs.

It's really close between them; putting one clearly ahead of the other is not reasonable.

Kucherov did it playing with Hagel, Hedman, Point, and Stamkos. Meanwhile Kane was juicing up Eric Guatafsson and playing with DeBrincat and Toews.

I’m well aware it’s close between the two. I think Kane was better plain and simple.

 

[Video Nasty]

I think the revisionist history has gone way overboard with Kane. No one talked about him being a top 5 player during the first half of his career, and once they did, it was a very short lived reign, punctuated by a complete lack of playoff success during that time period.

Meanwhile, Kucherov has been top 5 for about 7 years running now, with the stats, hardware, and accolades to back it up.

I don’t care that Kane is the leading scorer for the 2010s because his competition couldn’t stay on the ice or wilted into lesser versions of themselves overnight. He was rarely a top 5 player during that time frame. Not sure who else has gained so much in retrospective clout based off one season (2015-2016).

 

[daver]

Kucherov did it playing with Hagel, Hedman, Point, and Stamkos. Meanwhile Kane was juicing up Eric Guatafsson and playing with DeBrincat and Toews.

I’m well aware it’s close between the two. I think Kane was better plain and simple.

Panarin?

 

[x Tame Impala]

Panarin?

He was not on the team during Kane’s 30 year old season. Kane did out score him that year however. Panarin put up 120 points last season, I truly don’t think similar if not better production from Kane in his prime during these past few years is an unrealistic notion

 

[BoltSTH]

It always amazes me that 29 GM passed over in the draft after his record U18 scoring (21p) , and SFY passed on him once, before taking him at 58th.

 

[wetcoast]

13th right now

1. Howe
2. Hull
3. Jagr
4. Ovechkin
5. Richard
6. Makarov
7. Lafleur
8. Cook
9. Bossy
10. Kharlamov
11. Lindsay
12. Conacher
13. Kucherov

Has a decent chance to get up to 7 if he keeps it up. Could probably argue him up to 10 right now if you wanted to.

Sounds about right but the more important question is where does that place him all time?

Also I wonder if most people who look at all time ranking have him over Patrick Kane?

I ask this as a lot of people were talking about the Big 4 (Crosby, Ovi, Malkin, Kane) post lockout recently and did one season really change that?

 

[wetcoast]

14. Geoffrion
15. Bathgate
16. Mahovlich
17. Selanne
18. Moore
19. Phillips
20. Kane

I know that it's only 2 spots but Kane behind Moore is well very interesting in an all time sense.

NV I was going to write Geoffrion was better than Moore but then I double checked.

Personally I don't have any real qualms about your list I just wonder how others are going to treat Kane at 20?

Do you take a prime Kane over a prime Kucherov? Genuinely asking.

Does it matter as we are talking about an all time ranking so career also matters quite a bit one would think right?

I really don't know if I would. Both are far ahead of peak Panarin in my opinion and I'm not even sure why Breadman's name was brought up, as elite as he can be at times.

Agree here Breadman just isn't even really close to these 2 guys.

I agree that prime Ovechkin and Jagr are the two best wingers since the 90s though.

Yes.

Maybe they're the two best wingers period.

That would be a big no.

 

[daver]

He was not on the team during Kane’s 30 year old season. Kane did out score him that year however. Panarin put up 120 points last season, I truly don’t think similar if not better production from Kane in his prime during these past few years is an unrealistic notion

So you arguing that you put a 30 year old Kane on the 2023/24 Bolts and he puts up more than 144 points? You are really relying on hypothetical scenarios to make your argument which is never a strong position from which to argue.

Kucherov just outscored his teammate by 60% in his peak season. Kane outscored Panarin by 38% in his peak season.

When a player is statistically superior to another, it is unreasonable to use a linemate argument/strength of team argument to move a player ahead of them.

Kane had plenty of chances on the clear best team from 2011 to 2015 to place higher than 5th in the Art Ross race. He had a hard enough time leading his team in scoring over this period let alone challenging for the league lead.

Kucherov peaked a bit higher than Kane. You can argue that Kucherov benefitted from his team but there is a good argument to be made that Kane benefitted from playing sheltered minutes for most of his career vs. Kucherov being on the Bolts #1 line and facing the other team's players.

Both players have significant playoff resumes.

Their numbers, with context, should dictate who is rated higher. Anyone arguing that 144 >>> 106 points is not to be taken seriously. As is anyone arguing that a peak Kane would have beaten Kucherov's 30 year old season (they would be close IMO) is also not to be taken seriously.

 

[Staniowski]

I don't know about ranking, but I think if you play all the best wingers in hockey history at the same time, Kucherov, Jagr, and Makarov are the three best scorers (the best offensively).

Kucherov's puck skills and offensive instincts are extremely high, and a bit underrated (even though it's happening right before our eyes).

 

[Midnight Judges]

I think the revisionist history has gone way overboard with Kane. No one talked about him being a top 5 player during the first half of his career, and once they did, it was a very short lived reign, punctuated by a complete lack of playoff success during that time period.

Meanwhile, Kucherov has been top 5 for about 7 years running now, with the stats, hardware, and accolades to back it up.

The Hockey News had Kucherov ranked as the 22nd or so best player in the NHL before this past season.

I am told they are a serious Canadian hockey publication.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The Hockey News had Kucherov ranked as the 22nd or so best player in the NHL before this past season.

I am told they are a serious Canadian hockey publication.

That was ridiculous
This year he is 6th

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Kucherov did it playing with Hagel, Hedman, Point, and Stamkos. Meanwhile Kane was juicing up Eric Guatafsson and playing with DeBrincat and Toews.

I’m well aware it’s close between the two. I think Kane was better plain and simple.

Kane was better over a longer span of time. He's the leading point better in the NHL from 2010-2019

So you arguing that you put a 30 year old Kane on the 2023/24 Bolts and he puts up more than 144 points? You are really relying on hypothetical scenarios to make your argument which is never a strong position from which to argue.

Kucherov just outscored his teammate by 60% in his peak season. Kane outscored Panarin by 38% in his peak season.

When a player is statistically superior to another, it is unreasonable to use a linemate argument/strength of team argument to move a player ahead of them.

Kane had plenty of chances on the clear best team from 2011 to 2015 to place higher than 5th in the Art Ross race. He had a hard enough time leading his team in scoring over this period let alone challenging for the league lead.

Kucherov peaked a bit higher than Kane. You can argue that Kucherov benefitted from his team but there is a good argument to be made that Kane benefitted from playing sheltered minutes for most of his career vs. Kucherov being on the Bolts #1 line and facing the other team's players.

Both players have significant playoff resumes.

Their numbers, with context, should dictate who is rated higher. Anyone arguing that 144 >>> 106 points is not to be taken seriously. As is anyone arguing that a peak Kane would have beaten Kucherov's 30 year old season (they would be close IMO) is also not to be taken seriously.

Many people under estimate Kane's success with average players. He was able to win a cup with Handzus as his center on the 2nd line.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Kane was better over a longer span of time. He's the leading point better in the NHL from 2010-2019

And Kuch is 4th since he joined the league and +135
Kane is fifth and -18

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Kucherov also has 2022 where he was 2nd in ppg and had 69 pts in 47 games

Also missed a whole season in 2021 where he would have been top 5 most likely as well

Needs 2 more top 3 ross/hart/lindsay finishes and then he is every bit as valuable and impactful as Jagr/Crosby/OV all time

You will be the only person that thinks that, unfortunately. Kucherov is a level or even two below those names.

 

[Stephen]

Somehow I feel like people are not registering Kucherov's 5-6 year run since 2018. Excluding Stanley Cup runs, he has 4x 100 point seasons, 2 Art Rosses, a Hart and a 144 point season that trails Bossy's 147 point high by 3 points, Jagr's high of 149 by 5 points, surpasses Lafleur's high water mark of 136, Kurri's 135, Selanne's 132, blows Ovechkin's 112 out of the water. This guy could go on points compiling cruise control for 4-5 years and a few respectable runs in the playoffs and be in the running for Top 5 of all time on the wing.

 

[Stephen]

You will be the only person that thinks that, unfortunately. Kucherov is a level or even two below those names.

Kucherov already has 20 more playoff points than Ovechkin across their whole careers. Aside from goal scoring dominance you could see a very achievable trajectory where he's clear cut better than Ovechkin in a few years time.

 

[DFC]

I don't know about ranking, but I think if you play all the best wingers in hockey history at the same time, Kucherov, Jagr, and Makarov are the three best scorers (the best offensively).

Kucherov's puck skills and offensive instincts are extremely high, and a bit underrated (even though it's happening right before our eyes).

Yeah, i think somehow Kucherov does get underrated. Probably because his scoring prowess is based on his decision making more than raw skills. No single skill stands out, but he's crazily unpredictable, even from a dead stop.

He's also a guy where if you look at replays on a lot of his secondary assists you find that it is what actually created the goal. I think this is what makes tb fans so appreciative. You just trust the guy to create.

It's odd that a guy who just put up 144 points is getting underrated, but I think that's happening a lot.

 

[SML2]

Name one past playmaking winger that was as good as Kucherov? I think the closest would be Pat Kane and Marty St Louis. Maybe Panarin too, but he doesn't have the hardware that Kucherov has. But aside from those two, I can't think of anyone else.

So that makes me think that Kucherov has to be a top 10 winger of all time at the very worst.

He's better than Kovalchuk, Bure, Selanne and Stamkos but just under Ovechkin and Jagr.

Where would you rank him all time for wingers?

Stop trying to jam active players into all time rankings. What's the hurry? Just wait until they are done playing. It makes ranking them so much easier.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Kane had plenty of chances on the clear best team from 2011 to 2015 to place higher than 5th in the Art Ross race. He had a hard enough time leading his team in scoring over this period let alone challenging for the league lead.

Kucherov also struggled to place strong in the Art Ross race during Tampa's window. When Kucherov wins an Art Ross the Lightning have flamed out early in the playoffs and don't look good.

Kucherov peaked a bit higher than Kane. You can argue that Kucherov benefitted from his team but there is a good argument to be made that Kane benefitted from playing sheltered minutes for most of his career vs. Kucherov being on the Bolts #1 line and facing the other team's players.

How did he peak higher than Kane? Both of their peaks are winning the Art Ross.

Both players have significant playoff resumes.

Except Kane peaked higher, he actually won a Conn Smythe on a team with plenty of competition for the trophy. Kane is arguably the best playoff performer of a generation, and the timing of his hat tricks and game winning goals in the playoffs were unreal, and the competition it was against makes it all that much more impressive.

Their numbers, with context, should dictate who is rated higher. Anyone arguing that 144 >>> 106 points is not to be taken seriously. As is anyone arguing that a peak Kane would have beaten Kucherov's 30 year old season (they would be close IMO) is also not to be taken seriously.

Agreed.

Kucherov already has 20 more playoff points than Ovechkin across their whole careers. Aside from goal scoring dominance you could see a very achievable trajectory where he's clear cut better than Ovechkin in a few years time.

Aside from the goal scoring dominance of Ovechkin being the GOAT and OV peaking higher than Kucherov in both regular season and playoffs, I suppose Kucherov is better due to some nice compilation statistics if we cherry pick hard enough.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I think I'd put Kane and Kucherov at around the same level of impact. It just took a lil longer for Kucherov to really hit his groove.

Very similar impact players. Malkin and Draisaitl aren't wingers but are also in that group. Unreal talents that can't seem to put it all together consistently enough to be talked about in that next breathe of players.

 

[Stephen]

Aside from the goal scoring dominance of Ovechkin being the GOAT and OV peaking higher than Kucherov in both regular season and playoffs, I suppose Kucherov is better due to some nice compilation statistics if we cherry pick hard enough.

How do you figure Ovechkin peaked higher than Kucherov in the playoffs? Tampa went on an 11 series playoff winning streak with Kucherov putting 30+ points in 2x of the three years, 27 points being the lowest total, coincidentally Ovechkin's high. He also did all that stuff way earlier in his career and could conceivably blow Ovechkin's playoff totals out of the water even more.

Kucherov's peak offense in the regular season blows Ovechkin's out of the water. He has double the Art Ross trophies to Ovechkin at 2 to 1.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

How do you figure Ovechkin peaked higher than Kucherov in the playoffs? Tampa went on an 11 series playoff winning streak with Kucherov putting 30+ points in 2x of the three years, 27 points being the lowest total, coincidentally Ovechkin's high. He also did all that stuff way earlier in his career and could conceivably blow Ovechkin's playoff totals out of the water even more.

Kucherov's peak offense in the regular season blows Ovechkin's out of the water. He has double the Art Ross trophies to Ovechkin at 2 to 1.

OV captained his team to the cup and won the conn smythe in the process. Kucherov did not win a Conn Smythe. 2018 OV campaign looks better on the resume to me personally than any postseason Kucherov put together.

OV has done an award sweep a couple of times. Kucherov has never came close to the peak dominance of OV. Not sure why you would even try to argue that point, and if Kucherov's compilation trophy case somehow seems more impressive to you than OV's, than there is no reasoning with you.