Randyne
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Of course he wasn't. Maybe couple players were better in NHL history.
Where Does Auston Matthews Rank For You As A Goal Scorer All Time?
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HFBoards is well aware that today is election day in the US. We ask respectfully to focus on hockey and not politics.
The argument is that they are really close overall in goal scoring their first 8 seasons and also that AM was the better ES goal scorer even if one has Ovi slightly better overall.
Sundinisagod
****
Since this thread is about goal scoring, you tell me which is better:
368 goals in 562 games played
vs
371 goals in 601 games played
Randyne
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You do realize that adjusted you are talking about the difference of 23 goals over a 39 game difference so basically they are on par.
Randyne
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I never said that, what I said is that it's very close and basically a pick em if you want to break it down.
I also disagree with your assertion "of course not" to the proposition that AM was the better goal scorer as it's extremely close over their first 8 years.
First 8 years Ovi scores goals better in the playoffs and stays more healthy, while AM is the better ES goal scorer, to me it's a pick em when it comes down to goal scoring.
Top 10 100%. Top 5 can talk me into based on projections, but assuming he retired today, he'd land in top 20.
He was playing against goalies who couldn’t skate and were wearing horse hair pads
Regardless. How can bossy be considered the best of all time if he only led the league in goals twice in 10 years?
Doesn’t that mean others have to have been better in 8 of those years?
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
I don't think he's the best or greatest of all-time. He's top 8 to 10 or so. I don't think you can put him first because he lacks the peak (and the longevity to make up for that). But he was consistent in the regular season and had some very strong showings in the playoffs. He finished second in goals in 1982 to Gretzky's 92 goal season (and yes, scoring was really high that season and in the 80s, but that's still the highest scoring season of the 80s and all-time - not exactly easy to beat).
Matthews can definitely surpass him, but I'd like to have better showings from him in the playoffs before I put him ahead of Bossy.
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Goal scoring rates are much higher in today's league, I think Ovie would regularly be a a 70 goal scorer. Especially against today's goalies and expansion rosters.
Matthews will probably add 3+ Richard's to his trophy case but I don't think there will be any question for those who watched both of these guys play that Ovechkin was the better goal scorer.
Matthews will probably add 3+ Richard's to his trophy case but I don't think there will be any question for those who watched both of these guys play that Ovechkin was the better goal scorer.
Hockey Outsider
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On the History forum, there's an adjusting scoring method called VsX. It's not perfect, but it's generally a good way to compare stats from different eras.
Most adjusted goals, best eight seasons (1927-2024)
Based on this method, Matthews ranks tied for 18th, for most goals scorer over a player's best eight years. Of course, Matthews has only played eight years, and he's missed 10+ games twice already. He'll very likely climb this list, if he stays healthy (and he has a few full seasons push some of his injury-shortened years out of the top eight).
Most adjusted goals, best eight consecutive seasons (1927-2024)
Let's look at how these players rank over their best eight consecutive seasons. In Matthews' case, he only has eight years. This is (arguably) a more meaningful comparison, since we don't get to pick and choose a player's best years. (This doesn't really affect players like Gretzky or Bossy, who had a clear peak - but it hurts someone like Lemieux, who was frequently injured). Under this method, Matthews ranks 10th all-time.
Most adjusted goals, first eight seasons (1927-2024)
Arguably this is the most meaningful way to evaluate Matthews right now. In terms of most goals scored through a player's first eight years, he ranks 8th all-time.
It's tough to evaluate a player who's in the middle of his prime. Matthews clearly has the possibility of becoming one of the top ten goal-scorers of all time. He's had an excellent start (and he'd rank even higher on each of these tables, if not for the approximately 40 games that he's missed). The two things that he needs to do, in order to solidify a spot in the top ten are improve his playoff numbers (which have been disappointing for a player of his calibre) and/or have good longevity.
For example, Mike Bossy is somewhere in the top ten all-time (amongst goal-scorers). Matthews is only two years away from matching Bossy's career length, but the gap in their playoff performances is enormous. Matthews will need to either make a serious dent in that, or compile his way past Bossy with many more years as a top goal-scorer.
Another comparable player might be Teemu Selanne. I think we can say that Matthews is the better goal-scorer, but it's close. Selanne also has a fairly disappointing playoff resume. He's generally outside of the top ten, and he scored close to 700 goals. If Matthews can't step up in the playoffs, he'll need some serious longevity to crack the top ten (because Selanne isn't there right now, with close to double Matthews' career total).
Most adjusted goals, best eight seasons (1927-2024)
| Player | Total |
| Bobby Hull | 549 |
| Maurice Richard | 521 |
| Gordie Howe | 510 |
| Phil Esposito | 480 |
| Alex Ovechkin | 470 |
| Wayne Gretzky | 456 |
| Brett Hull | 433 |
| Mario Lemieux | 423 |
| Jean Beliveau | 422 |
| Mike Bossy | 416 |
| Steven Stamkos | 407 |
| Bill Cook | 404 |
| Charlie Conacher | 403 |
| Nels Stewart | 396 |
| Frank Mahovlich | 395 |
| Bernie Geoffrion | 394 |
| Jaromir Jagr | 391 |
| Auston Matthews | 388 |
| Stan Mikita | 388 |
| Roy Conacher | 386 |
Based on this method, Matthews ranks tied for 18th, for most goals scorer over a player's best eight years. Of course, Matthews has only played eight years, and he's missed 10+ games twice already. He'll very likely climb this list, if he stays healthy (and he has a few full seasons push some of his injury-shortened years out of the top eight).
Most adjusted goals, best eight consecutive seasons (1927-2024)
| Player | Total |
| Bobby Hull | 533 |
| Gordie Howe | 505 |
| Phil Esposito | 480 |
| Maurice Richard | 462 |
| Wayne Gretzky | 455 |
| Alex Ovechkin | 442 |
| Brett Hull | 433 |
| Mike Bossy | 411 |
| Jean Beliveau | 404 |
| Auston Matthews | 388 |
| Charlie Conacher | 387 |
| Bill Cook | 386 |
| Stan Mikita | 381 |
| Nels Stewart | 379 |
| Jaromir Jagr | 379 |
| Steven Stamkos | 378 |
| Mario Lemieux | 369 |
| Ted Lindsay | 369 |
| Bernie Geoffrion | 369 |
| Ilya Kovalchuk | 361 |
Let's look at how these players rank over their best eight consecutive seasons. In Matthews' case, he only has eight years. This is (arguably) a more meaningful comparison, since we don't get to pick and choose a player's best years. (This doesn't really affect players like Gretzky or Bossy, who had a clear peak - but it hurts someone like Lemieux, who was frequently injured). Under this method, Matthews ranks 10th all-time.
Most adjusted goals, first eight seasons (1927-2024)
| Wayne Gretzky | 455 |
| Alex Ovechkin | 415 |
| Mike Bossy | 411 |
| Maurice Richard | 401 |
| Gordie Howe | 396 |
| Bobby Hull | 394 |
| Auston Matthews | 388 |
| Charlie Conacher | 387 |
| Bill Cook | 386 |
| Steven Stamkos | 378 |
| Nels Stewart | 368 |
| Howie Morenz | 356 |
| Ilya Kovalchuk | 356 |
| Mario Lemieux | 356 |
| Phil Esposito | 354 |
| Teemu Selanne | 345 |
| Gordie Fashoway | 344 |
| Roy Conacher | 344 |
| Luc Robitaille | 341 |
| Guy Lafleur | 335 |
Arguably this is the most meaningful way to evaluate Matthews right now. In terms of most goals scored through a player's first eight years, he ranks 8th all-time.
It's tough to evaluate a player who's in the middle of his prime. Matthews clearly has the possibility of becoming one of the top ten goal-scorers of all time. He's had an excellent start (and he'd rank even higher on each of these tables, if not for the approximately 40 games that he's missed). The two things that he needs to do, in order to solidify a spot in the top ten are improve his playoff numbers (which have been disappointing for a player of his calibre) and/or have good longevity.
For example, Mike Bossy is somewhere in the top ten all-time (amongst goal-scorers). Matthews is only two years away from matching Bossy's career length, but the gap in their playoff performances is enormous. Matthews will need to either make a serious dent in that, or compile his way past Bossy with many more years as a top goal-scorer.
Another comparable player might be Teemu Selanne. I think we can say that Matthews is the better goal-scorer, but it's close. Selanne also has a fairly disappointing playoff resume. He's generally outside of the top ten, and he scored close to 700 goals. If Matthews can't step up in the playoffs, he'll need some serious longevity to crack the top ten (because Selanne isn't there right now, with close to double Matthews' career total).
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Golden_Jet
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FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
It would depend on when those games were played.
If the 562 games were played in the mid-90's and the 601 games were played in the early 80's. I would consider the 368 goal total much, much, much better cause it would have been accomplished in the heart of the dead puck era where goals were much harder to come by.
When you're looking at different eras, there are so many things to factor in. Goalie equipment gets much lighter in the late 80's and into the 90's, but then it starts to get bigger, too.
Stick technology dramatically improves and begs questions like what would Mike Bossy do with one of today's sticks? Gretzky nearly scored 100 goals in a season with a wooden Titan. What could a 21-year old Wayne Gretzky could do today? What Auston Matthews be an elite goal scorer in the clutch-and-grab era? Who knows?
Another enormous factor is who were those games played with? If I am determining who is the better goal scorer, looking at those two sets of numbers, the line mates would play a big factor in making that determination as well.
T REX
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Premature thread.
Need quite a few more years to really make an objective opinion.
Data is incomplete.
Need quite a few more years to really make an objective opinion.
Data is incomplete.
BLNY
Registered User
I think the biggest issue with Selanne is that he had great longevity as a good goal scorer but his peak as a great goal scorer wasn’t very long when you consider injuries and down years (in part from injuries). 3 years leading the league and another 2 top 3 but then only one other 10th place finish. Matthews has already matched Selanne’s top 3 finishes exactly (1,1,1,2,3) and already has one more year in the top 10 in points per game than Selanne did. I don’t think he needs great longevity necessarily to push for the top 10 so much as to not fall off for another 4-5 years. To me, longevity as a great goal scorer is the biggest factor in goal scorer evaluations and that’s where Selanne loses ground despite the career numbers.
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Randyne
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Why is this so much different from Hockey-Reference site?
Ovi's best 8 = 481
Bobby's best 8 = 416
HR Ovi has +65 goals over Bobby and your calculation -79 goals behind Bobby. It's ok to have 10-20 goals difference between calculations, but 144 goals difference in 8 seasons, something is very wrong.
Best 10 seasons adjusted HR:
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jigglysquishy
Registered User
Because HockeyReference is awful and the math is fundamentally wrong for pre 1980 hockey.
???? Ovy was more dynamic and fun to watch. His hits were unreal.
But Matthews has more goals.same or more rockets, plays C leads the league in blocked shots. Near the top in takeaways and plays selke level D despite being the hands down best goal scorer in the game.
He’s the most unique player in the league. Not the best but his skill set is unmatched for all round game.
And I would trade him for McDavid in a second
Randyne
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Everyone can call awful everything. At least try to explain.
Gaylord Q Tinkledink
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He's also good on the draw. Not great, but still good.
Matthews is overrated by those super annoying fans that every fan base has, just Toronto has more than some teams have fans in general.
He's underrated by the people who just see the above Toronto fans and try and cut him down.
Right now, if he got hurt 1st game of the season and had to retire, he'd be in the same boat ad Bossy and and Bure as what could have been without injuries.
He's not considered the best goal scorer, as he could play another 10 years and average 30 goals a year. Still good, but would leave him well short of 1st, or how it's looking, 2nd.
If he keeps up the pace he's been scoring at there's no option but to declare him the best goal scorer.
Right now he's definitely trending to be top 3/5 goal scorers of all time.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
It's a group of baseball fans that tried to quickly make a hockey website so it's littered with baseball origin errors.
Their roster size adjustments are structurally broken. They adjust to having star players of the 50s play only 15 minutes in the adjusted formula. If you look at adjusted scoring in the 50s and 60s star players are all structurally underestimated by 10-25%. You end up with Art Ross winners adjusting below 10th in scoring finishers from today. The creators don't care about hockey history and are only looking for Gretzky and more modern stats to "look" right.
No roster size adjustment size is needed for baseball so they never bothered to think it through.
I've bought it up to them several times and they just don't care. I hate how ubiquitous the stats are here because it's a lazy formula that's repeated everywhere.
Randyne
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???
Ovechkin lead the league by 38 P and 62 G despite being a winger, Matthews is 285 P behind a leader and barely outscore his own teammate.
They are not comparable at all.
