Where do you stand on moving Doughty?

[tsanuri]

If we can't sign DD due to money how exactly are we going to sign EK? They will get very similar contracts.

 

[KINGS17]

This would be the only consolation. But with Sutter gone, we're getting what we get with a lesser pure D talent, albeit a phenom on O, with EK. But EK wouldn't benefit from the tutelage of Sutter, ergo, again, "getting what we get". And we have plenty of forwards to produce with this new scheme.

YOU DONT LET DOUGHTY GO.

Disgusted at all the posts saying otherwise. We would never fill his vacancy, even with EK. Our best player, arguably, and part of both cup runs. A huge part. He's worth every bit of 11.5-12. EVERY BIT if that's what the market calls for.

Would you rather have Kopi and Drew for a combined 22-23.5 mil/AAV or Kane and Toews at a combined $21 MIL? No brainer for me.

Keep in mind, as crappy as the salary cap escalations are in the NHL, they (escalations) will make Drew's contract lesser of the piece of the whole pie as his contract ages.

Up until possibly the 2018-19 season the signing of two star players to big money contracts has been a failed model.

Finally, in the 2018-19 season the salary cap may rise to $80M, which is where the Blackhawks thought it would be two or three years ago. This may finally allow teams likes the Hawks and Kings to add some depth via the UFA market, but I wouldn't bank on it in the Kings case. LA has never been an attractive destination for big name UFAs.

NHL Salary Cap Could Significantly Increase for 2018-19 | Spectors Hockey

 

[kings11]

Up until possibly the 2018-19 season the signing of two star players to big money contracts has been a failed model.

Finally, in the 2018-19 season the salary cap may rise to $80M, which is where the Blackhawks thought it would be two or three years ago. This may finally allow teams likes the Hawks and Kings to add some depth via the UFA market, but I wouldn't bank on it in the Kings case. LA has never been an attractive destination for big name UFAs.

NHL Salary Cap Could Significantly Increase for 2018-19 | Spectors Hockey

I hope your wrong about being a UFA destination because we need a top 4 Dman in the worst way. While Muzzin and Martinez are steals salary wise for the roles they play, they have regressed.. Muzzin with bad Hockey sense/IQ and Martinez seems to be wearing down with his high usage and all those hits from blocked shots.. Now would be the time to maximize their value by moving one or both in then off-season and replacing them with a Carlson and a younger ELC defenseman like Chabot, Liljegren, etc... As for the cap rising, well the way both Brown and Gaborik have started the season they could make easy trade bait without having much attached to them. We also have to deal with Kempe, LaDue, Gravel, Iafallo, Fantenberg, Brodzinski, MacD, Petersen and Amadio needing new deals within the next 2 seasons.
Iafallo - Kopitar - Brown
Kempe - Carter - Toffoli
Pearson - Vilardi - Lewis
Clifford - Amadio - Brodzinski

Chabot - Doughty
Carlson - LaDue
Forbort - Martinez
MacDermid

Quick
Campbell

Its never too early to prepare for the future of this club and the next couple of moves are going to be huge and will determine the future direction of this team.... Full rebuild and become sellers or cast off some big salaries Muzzin, Brown, Gaborik, Martinez (options) and bring up the kids while sprinkling some vets.. For what its worth this season, Blake and Co. have addressed issues/holes pretty quickly and has turned an avg bottom 6 into a strength by adding vets that fit our team better..

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

How many HOF defenesemen have payed their whole career with the same team in recent years? I can only think of Lidstrom off the top of my head.

And looking at the return for some of those who were moved would make you reconsider the option of trading Doughty.

Chris Chelios, traded to Detroit by Chicago for Anders Eriksson and Detroit's 1st round choices in 1999 (Steve McCarthy) and 2001 (Adam Munro) Entry Drafts.

Ray Bourque, traded to Colorado by Boston with Dave Andreychuk for Brian Rolston, Martin Grenier, Samuel Pahlsson and New Jersey's 1st round choice (previously acquired, Boston selected Martin Samuelsson) in 2000 Entry Draft.

Rob Blake, traded to Colorado by Los Angeles with Steve Reinprecht for Adam Deadmarsh, Aaron Miller, a player to be named later (Jared Aulin, March 22, 2001) and Colorado's 1st round choices in 2001 (Dave Steckel) and 2003 (Brian Boyle) Entry Drafts.

Chris Pronger, traded to Edmonton by St. Louis for Eric Brewer, Doug Lynch and Jeff Woywitka.

Then you have guys like Scott Niedermayer and Zdeno Chara who ended up walking away as free agents and wound up winning Stanley Cups with the teams they ended up signing with.

Trading Drew Doughty would put this team right back into the gutter, which is where they were before drafting Doughty.

 

[Snyper8]

I can't believe I'm reading this on our subforum.
Say he's not the best but only top 3.
That puts him in the top 1.38% of Dmen in the league. But that doesn't earn top dollar?
Tell me how you'd feel in your job being in the top 1.38 percentile and not getting a top level raise?
He shouldn't get a max contract which with the comments from uncle Gary would be $16M. But he likely deserves 10.5-11M. Which is still top dollar.

Great argument if I say he is a top 3 dman. I never said he was because I do not think he is.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Great argument if I say he is a top 3 dman. I never said he was because I do not think he is.

LOL, I’d like to see who you think is better than Doughty and your top 3. The only dman I’d say is better is Karlsson, because he has gamebreaking abilities.

After Karlsson, there isn’t a dman I take ahead of Drew, but you seem to think there are others better than him. Go ahead and list them. We’re all looking forward to the laughs.

 

[KingTrouty]

Up until possibly the 2018-19 season the signing of two star players to big money contracts has been a failed model.

Finally, in the 2018-19 season the salary cap may rise to $80M, which is where the Blackhawks thought it would be two or three years ago. This may finally allow teams likes the Hawks and Kings to add some depth via the UFA market, but I wouldn't bank on it in the Kings case. LA has never been an attractive destination for big name UFAs.

NHL Salary Cap Could Significantly Increase for 2018-19 | Spectors Hockey

I know where you stand, 17.

My question wasn't a psychological question behind the CAP and the long-game, just (an almost rhetorical) question of a pair of different players, on the same teams, respectively, at similar salaries.

As to your last paragraph, I pretty much addressed that, but I do appreciate you expanding on it, brother. Always a welcome sight here, 17.

 

[KINGS17]

LOL, I’d like to see who you think is better than Doughty and your top 3. The only dman I’d say is better is Karlsson, because he has gamebreaking abilities.

After Karlsson, there isn’t a dman I take ahead of Drew, but you seem to think there are others better than him. Go ahead and list them. We’re all looking forward to the laughs.

I agree, but there are some not too far behind Doughty who are cheaper by several million dollars in what will be Doughty's new cap hit.

 

[KINGS17]

And looking at the return for some of those who were moved would make you reconsider the option of trading Doughty.

Chris Chelios, traded to Detroit by Chicago for Anders Eriksson and Detroit's 1st round choices in 1999 (Steve McCarthy) and 2001 (Adam Munro) Entry Drafts.

Ray Bourque, traded to Colorado by Boston with Dave Andreychuk for Brian Rolston, Martin Grenier, Samuel Pahlsson and New Jersey's 1st round choice (previously acquired, Boston selected Martin Samuelsson) in 2000 Entry Draft.

Rob Blake, traded to Colorado by Los Angeles with Steve Reinprecht for Adam Deadmarsh, Aaron Miller, a player to be named later (Jared Aulin, March 22, 2001) and Colorado's 1st round choices in 2001 (Dave Steckel) and 2003 (Brian Boyle) Entry Drafts.

Chris Pronger, traded to Edmonton by St. Louis for Eric Brewer, Doug Lynch and Jeff Woywitka.

Then you have guys like Scott Niedermayer and Zdeno Chara who ended up walking away as free agents and wound up winning Stanley Cups with the teams they ended up signing with.

Trading Drew Doughty would put this team right back into the gutter, which is where they were before drafting Doughty.

The return for Blake was fine. It was what was done with the picks that was a crime.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The return for Blake was fine. It was what was done with the picks that was a crime.

Another thing I should've pointed out with that list of dealt HOF defensemen, they all went on to win Stanley Cups. Pronger got the Oilers to the Stanley Cup Final, and then went on to win a Cup with the Ducks.

The return for Blake wasn't terrible, but the Kings didn't find anyone who could do what Blake does until drafting Doughty in 2008.

 

[Snyper8]

Trading Drew Doughty would put this team right back into the gutter, which is where they were before drafting Doughty.

so not making the playoffs for 2 of the last 3 seasons with the great drew doughty isn't the gutter?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

so not making the playoffs for 2 of the last 3 seasons with the great drew doughty isn't the gutter?

I guess the Sens are in the gutter too with Karlsson. Or the Hawks this season with Keith.

I didn't realize a single player is responsible for that. I guess the Kings would be better off without Doughty.

How about you list all of those defensemen better than Doughty? We all could use a good laugh at your expense.

 

[KINGS17]

Another thing I should've pointed out with that list of dealt HOF defensemen, they all went on to win Stanley Cups. Pronger got the Oilers to the Stanley Cup Final, and then went on to win a Cup with the Ducks.

The return for Blake wasn't terrible, but the Kings didn't find anyone who could do what Blake does until drafting Doughty in 2008.

The Kings have never had a defenseman capable of doing what Doughty does, not even Blake.

I am hoping Bettman's revenue projections are correct and there is a significant increase in the salary cap, because the Kings are going to need it to sign Doughty and maintain the depth required to still challenge for a cup in the future.

I think in order to do so, they will have to see Vilardi come along sooner than expected and maybe a defenseman like Clague be very good when they are on their ELCs. Of course Kopitar will have to continue to play as he is this season and not regress.

I am not as hopeful as some that Brown and/or Gaborik's improved play this season will lead to other teams seeking them in a trade. The lengths of thier contracts do not provide the flexibility most teams are looking for in a deal.

 

[yankeeking]

And looking at the return for some of those who were moved would make you reconsider the option of trading Doughty.

Chris Chelios, traded to Detroit by Chicago for Anders Eriksson and Detroit's 1st round choices in 1999 (Steve McCarthy) and 2001 (Adam Munro) Entry Drafts.

Ray Bourque, traded to Colorado by Boston with Dave Andreychuk for Brian Rolston, Martin Grenier, Samuel Pahlsson and New Jersey's 1st round choice (previously acquired, Boston selected Martin Samuelsson) in 2000 Entry Draft.

Rob Blake, traded to Colorado by Los Angeles with Steve Reinprecht for Adam Deadmarsh, Aaron Miller, a player to be named later (Jared Aulin, March 22, 2001) and Colorado's 1st round choices in 2001 (Dave Steckel) and 2003 (Brian Boyle) Entry Drafts.

Chris Pronger, traded to Edmonton by St. Louis for Eric Brewer, Doug Lynch and Jeff Woywitka.

Then you have guys like Scott Niedermayer and Zdeno Chara who ended up walking away as free agents and wound up winning Stanley Cups with the teams they ended up signing with.

Trading Drew Doughty would put this team right back into the gutter, which is where they were before drafting Doughty.

Even though not at the same point in their careers , Larry Murphy trade got us nobodies and I believe it's considered one of the Worst trades in NHL history and ties in because it was over money not talent , we might have to wait years if ever to get a dman like him , I know he might not be generational but he is damn close, and everything should be in play to keep him but at the Very least we should not consider trading him until he commits to not signing here

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Another thing I should've pointed out with that list of dealt HOF defensemen, they all went on to win Stanley Cups. Pronger got the Oilers to the Stanley Cup Final, and then went on to win a Cup with the Ducks.

The return for Blake wasn't terrible, but the Kings didn't find anyone who could do what Blake does until drafting Doughty in 2008.

Am I one of the few that see very little comparison between Blake and Doughty? Blake was a very good d-man, but Doughty is f-ing great and has brought WAY more to this team than Blake ever even got close to.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Am I one of the few that see very little comparison between Blake and Doughty? Blake was a very good d-man, but Doughty is f-ing great and has brought WAY more to this team than Blake ever even got close to.

It’s about their role and position, plus Blake also played an insane amount of minutes and in every situation. They’re the only two dmen in Kings history to win Norris Trophies, and both are Olympic gold medalists.

There’s parallels there, and like I said, they didn’t fill that void when Blake was dealt until Doughty was drafted 2nd overall in 2008.

The point is, it was difficult and challenge to replace a #1 dman who was considered to be among the best in the league, and it won’t get easier doing so again should they lose Doughty.

 

[kings11]

The Kings have never had a defenseman capable of doing what Doughty does, not even Blake.

I am hoping Bettman's revenue projections are correct and there is a significant increase in the salary cap, because the Kings are going to need it to sign Doughty and maintain the depth required to still challenge for a cup in the future.

I think in order to do so, they will have to see Vilardi come along sooner than expected and maybe a defenseman like Clague be very good when they are on their ELCs. Of course Kopitar will have to continue to play as he is this season and not regress.

I am not as hopeful as some that Brown and/or Gaborik's improved play this season will lead to other teams seeking them in a trade. The lengths of thier contracts do not provide the flexibility most teams are looking for in a deal.

I personally believe Kopitar will continue to have success since his game is based on puck possession rather than speed. Brown, for as bad as his contract is/seems could have been traded for a similar salary, but now if he continues on hid current pace the swap might be more accceptable/favorable to the Kings. Also, keep in mind VGK will need leader after they lose a few guys via UFA so that might be a landing spot. Gaborik is injury prone period! However, a team like the Coyotes that want to teach the cap floor and add an extra pick to help the rebuild might find an almost ready to retire Gaborik has a good fit.
Vilardi, Clague, Amadio, Wagner, Petersen could all see action next season on the Kings, the problem is we're running low on prospects after those guys unless we get a Kubalik and he pans out.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

LOL, I’d like to see who you think is better than Doughty and your top 3. The only dman I’d say is better is Karlsson, because he has gamebreaking abilities.

After Karlsson, there isn’t a dman I take ahead of Drew, but you seem to think there are others better than him. Go ahead and list them. We’re all looking forward to the laughs.

Have to wonder what Karlsson looks like going forward too because this year the Sens are struggling in big part because of him, not in spite of him.

Fluke injuries to EK or not, being healthy has value, and DD has been incredibly healthy over his career vs. his playstyle and games played.

I agree, but there are some not too far behind Doughty who are cheaper by several million dollars in what will be Doughty's new cap hit.

Who would be available, though?

so not making the playoffs for 2 of the last 3 seasons with the great drew doughty isn't the gutter?

You should review what the team looks like with him on and off the ice. Last season, in a year we missed the playoffs, we were better than the best defensive team by a significant margin (was around 1.45 GA/60) with Drew on the ice, and below average (17th) with him off the ice. He's on the ice half the game.

Edit: real numbers. Caps were 1.72 GA/60 last year (2nd was MTL, 1.92). Drew was 1.56, his relative GA/60 was -0.77.

 

[fsanford]

Doughty is as close to a generational player since Kings had Gretzky.

The cap should go up, (economy in US is strong) though there is a risk of TV revenue dropping in coming years as we are seeing the likes of ESPN struggle with people cutting the cable.

Look, my thinking is that if he about winning another cup, who will have cap space to sign him. Matthews in Toronto is gonna get 12 million even though he is an RFA. And they have other key components to sign as well.

Teams that have won the cup the past few years, had some sweet deals with players, Pens, Hawks, and Kings had guys who were underpaid based on production.
It's gonna be harder for contending teams going forward because star players are getting sweet deals, even as RFA's.

Maybe a team like Vegas could sign him, not sure if this winning thing is gonna last with them, if it does, they actually have the cap space to be a contender in a short amount of time. Heck they probably could sign both Doughty and Karlsson.

If you asked me last year after seeing Kopi's first year under his new deal I would have said, trade Doughty for as much as you can get for him.
Now I am more inclined to keep him, even though the last 3 or 4 years of the deal age and all that ice time could catch up with him.

Best sit on the fence answer I can come up with

 

[lumbergh]

All right, here's the plan. The Kings win the Cup in 2018, then Doughty signs an 8-year deal in the offseason because, well, he wants to win Cups. Done.

 

[Butch 19]

It’s about their role and position, plus Blake also played an insane amount of minutes and in every situation. They’re the only two dmen in Kings history to win Norris Trophies, and both are Olympic gold medalists.

There’s parallels there, and like I said, they didn’t fill that void when Blake was dealt until Doughty was drafted 2nd overall in 2008.

The point is, it was difficult and challenge to replace a #1 dman who was considered to be among the best in the league, and it won’t get easier doing so again should they lose Doughty.

aaand, if TB had slipped a bit at the end of the 08 season and the Kings moved up to the #1 pick and selected Stamkos - it is quite likely the Kings would still have ZERO Cups.

 

[KINGS17]

aaand, if TB had slipped a bit at the end of the 08 season and the Kings moved up to the #1 pick and selected Stamkos - it is quite likely the Kings would still have ZERO Cups.

I think if you read the tea leaves, Dean was taking Doughty. It didn't matter in the Kings had the 1st overall, or 2nd overall pick.

 

[Primakov!]

Chris Chelios, traded to Detroit by Chicago for Anders Eriksson and Detroit's 1st round choices in 1999 (Steve McCarthy) and 2001 (Adam Munro) Entry Drafts.

Ray Bourque, traded to Colorado by Boston with Dave Andreychuk for Brian Rolston, Martin Grenier, Samuel Pahlsson and New Jersey's 1st round choice (previously acquired, Boston selected Martin Samuelsson) in 2000 Entry Draft.

Rob Blake, traded to Colorado by Los Angeles with Steve Reinprecht for Adam Deadmarsh, Aaron Miller, a player to be named later (Jared Aulin, March 22, 2001) and Colorado's 1st round choices in 2001 (Dave Steckel) and 2003 (Brian Boyle) Entry Drafts.

Chris Pronger, traded to Edmonton by St. Louis for Eric Brewer, Doug Lynch and Jeff Woywitka.

Then you have guys like Scott Niedermayer and Zdeno Chara who ended up walking away as free agents and wound up winning Stanley Cups with the teams they ended up signing with.

Trading Drew Doughty would put this team right back into the gutter, which is where they were before drafting Doughty.

Not that I disagree with your point that it's hard to get fair value back, there is an age factor that makes the comparison a bit off.

Unless I've botched the math:

Chris Chelios was 37 when he was traded.
Ray Bourque was 40.
Rob Blake was 32.
Chris Pronger was 32.

Scott Niedermayer was 32 when he signed as a free agent.
Zdeno Chara was 29.

Doughty at 27 compared to those other players should make a huge difference in what you should be getting back from other teams. In a theoretical deal the age factor could make a trade package radically different.

I have to say, however, that if one single player has such a gigantic role that their presence or absence impacts the overall fortunes of the franchise then the organization needs to reconsider what they're doing with the roster. Because long-term and career ending injuries, and freak accidents leading to tragic misfortune happen all the time. So the Los Angeles Kings should be able to continue being a successful team with or without Drew Doughty -- and if they can't, they were never built properly to begin with and should be overhauled.

 

[KHenry14]

First, Dewy isn't going anywhere. He likes it in LA, he likes the team, and they clearly are committed to winning. Secondly, Blake isn't going to be the GM who let Dewy walk. Thirdly, they can make his deal work under the cap. And finally, no way any trade gets close to the value that Dewy means to the Kings.

Dude will get his jersey retired and probably a statue in front of the Stape

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In case you're curious about Doughty's importance to this team, guys with only slightly better numbers are getting extremely favorable deployment, Doughty is doing what he does with HARD minutes (and lesser partners than just about all those guys until now).

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][THEAD][TR][TD] Player[/TD][TD] G[/TD][TD]A [/TD][TD] P[/TD][TD]CF% [/TD][TD]CF%rel/tm [/TD][TD] GF%[/TD][TD] GF%rel/tm[/TD][TD] TOI/GP[/TD][TD] SHTOI/GP[/TD][TD] PPTOI/GP[/TD][TD]ZSRrel/tm [/TD][TD]TOI% QoC [/TD][/TR][/THEAD]
[TBODY][TR][TD]Alex Pietrangelo[/TD][TD]7[/TD][TD]13[/TD][TD]20[/TD][TD]52.51[/TD][TD]-0.72[/TD][TD]64.52[/TD][TD]10.78[/TD][TD]25:53[/TD][TD]2:32[/TD][TD]4:03[/TD][TD]3.44[/TD][TD]29.59[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Erik Karlsson[/TD][TD]1[/TD][TD]16[/TD][TD]17[/TD][TD]53.47[/TD][TD]6.69[/TD][TD]36.11[/TD][TD]-10.56[/TD][TD]25:08[/TD][TD]0:58[/TD][TD]4:00[/TD][TD]9.31[/TD][TD]28.95[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]John Klingberg[/TD][TD]4[/TD][TD]20[/TD][TD]24[/TD][TD]51.88[/TD][TD]1.13[/TD][TD]55.00[/TD][TD]7.38[/TD][TD]23:30[/TD][TD]1:34[/TD][TD]3:17[/TD][TD]3.21[/TD][TD]29.23[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Drew Doughty[/TD][TD]4[/TD][TD]15[/TD][TD]19[/TD][TD]52.14[/TD][TD]3.90[/TD][TD]57.89[/TD][TD]4.19[/TD][TD]26:56[/TD][TD]3:02[/TD][TD]3:34[/TD][TD]-3.86[/TD][TD]29.74[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Nick Leddy[/TD][TD]6[/TD][TD]15[/TD][TD]21[/TD][TD]50.57[/TD][TD]0.15[/TD][TD]53.85[/TD][TD]-1.71[/TD][TD]22:09[/TD][TD]0:14[/TD][TD]3:43[/TD][TD]8.36[/TD][TD]28.98[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]P.K. Subban[/TD][TD]4[/TD][TD]14[/TD][TD]18[/TD][TD]48.93[/TD][TD]-0.90[/TD][TD]48.39[/TD][TD]1.11[/TD][TD]24:31[/TD][TD]3:21[/TD][TD]3:44[/TD][TD]-9.09[/TD][TD]29.41[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Roman Josi[/TD][TD]6[/TD][TD]11[/TD][TD]17[/TD][TD]52.55[/TD][TD]6.12[/TD][TD]48.48[/TD][TD]1.82[/TD][TD]25:15[/TD][TD]3:35[/TD][TD]3:33[/TD][TD]7.02[/TD][TD]29.58[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Victor Hedman[/TD][TD]2[/TD][TD]15[/TD][TD]17[/TD][TD]50.43[/TD][TD]-0.54[/TD][TD]48.65[/TD][TD]-13.26[/TD][TD]25:29[/TD][TD]2:33[/TD][TD]3:28[/TD][TD]6.39[/TD][TD]29.61[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]