Where do you rank Martin Brodeur all time among goalies?

[Hischier and Hughes]

The History of Hockey forum, by far the best collection of knowledgeable individuals putting together lists ranked him at 6 in 2013.

He was voted 5th in 2019.

Hall, Sawchuk, and Brodeur are all very much in the same tier and can really be ranked in any order.

If you're a peak guy, Dryden has a strong argument above Brodeur.

Yeah so any argument for voting top-10 is absolutely ridiculous if the leeway with the greatest pundits on the matter is 5-6

If you have him interchangeable with someone at 6 your vote is top-5. Besides, having two 50-60s goaltenders over the winningest goaltender ever during a time when talent was much greater (and yes more goals were scored back then I realize this) is a bit much for me. If you want Plante above Brodeur then I wont complain, but not also Sawchuk AND Hall; thats just abusing the era for the argument and then were getting into the foundation of the sport now vs then, and Im willing to bet historians likely favor past over present in any meaningful yet interchangeable decision

Even being generous and going along with common rhetoric Id have them Hasek-Roy-Plante-Brodeur-Sawchuk, personally I have Brodeur over Roy so Hasek-Plante-Brodeur-Sawchuk-Roy. Roy is overrated when ranking all-time like as if the playoffs are all that matters in their entire careers worth of games

 

[North Cole]

Super flawed way of looking at it as there would be very few non North American players
No Ovechkin, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Malkin, Shesterkin, Vasilevskiy ect

Good luck making 6 "super teams" using just NA players.

You might get a little thing on teams 5 and 6, but I'm still not sure how that satisfies the idea it was easy to win back then. Just as flawed logic

 

[HugeInTheShire]

You might get a little thing on teams 5 and 6, but I'm still not sure how that satisfies the idea it was easy to win back then. Just as flawed logic

I agree with that, no such thing as an easy win, 6 teams or 32 it ain’t easy

 

[Conbon]

It may not be the most popular way to determine the greatest player in a sport but I always hold the players who break the game to the highest regard.

Brodeur forced the league to change its rules because he was too good at what he did. Hasek and Roy never got to that level.

By that logic Avery is better than Gretzky

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Super flawed way of looking at it as there would be very few non North American players
No Ovechkin, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Malkin, Shesterkin, Vasilevskiy ect

Good luck making 6 "super teams" using just NA players.

You are drastically over estimatng the number of non NA stars/elite players.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It may not be the most popular way to determine the greatest player in a sport but I always hold the players who break the game to the highest regard.

Brodeur forced the league to change its rules because he was too good at what he did. Hasek and Roy never got to that level.

Just like they did for HoF legend Sean Avery

 

[Video Nasty]

Any debate about Brodeur outside the top-5 is so far outside the realm of anything resembling pragmatic that I cant even take it seriously

So someone who puts him at #6 because they have a firm grasp on over a century’a worth of reasonable contenders to choose from isn’t sensible?

Talk about arrogance.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

It means that you (and most of this forum) assumes that the alternate reality of playing a phantom season does not differ from the current reality of the timeline we live in that didn't have that season played, other than adding more counting stats to the totals of a player.

If you can't see that, if you can't agree that anything at all could happen in 2004-2005 to have a ripple effect going forward, I don’t know what else to say.

Buddy, your ENTIRE PREMISE is centered around an “alternate reality” where Roy had equivalent shootout opportunities to Brodeur and adding more counting stats to your guy. What on earth are you on about?

If you can’t see that, well…

 

[MuckOG]

Up there.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

You are drastically over estimatng the number of non NA stars/elite players.

Sure if you're including all of NA, back in the 6 team era there were very few American born players as well.
Good luck making 6 super teams using just Canadians with a few Americans sprinkled in.

I believe it was somewhere in the area of 95% Canadians playing in that era

 

[Mrb1p]

I think top 10 somewhere.

Definetely behind Roy, Hasek, Price, Durnan, Plante and in a debate between him, Dryden, Hall, Lundqvist, Quick.

I voted 3, mostly because of this

Brodeur's NHL records :

Most Minutes Played in a Single Season - 4,697 - 2006-07
Most Wins in a Single Season- 48 - 2006-07
Most Consecutive 30 Win Seasons - 12 - 1995-96 through 2007-08
Most Consecutive 35-win seasons (11)
Most 40 Win Seasons - 8 - (1997-98, 1999-00, 2000-01, 2002-03, 2005-06, 2006-07, 2007-08, 2009-10)
Most Consecutive 40 Win Seasons - 3 - 2005-06 through 2007-08
Most All-Time OT Wins - 52
Most All-Time Shootout Wins - 26
Most Shootout Shots Against in a Single Seasons - 60 - 2006-07
Most All-Time Shootout Shots Against - 141
Most Consecutive Post-Season Starts - 158
Best Post-Season Goals-Against Average All-Time - 1.96
Most Shutouts in a Post-Season Series - 3 (tie), 2003 Stanley Cup Finals vs. Anaheim
Most Shutouts in a Post Season (7, in 2002-03)
Most Shutouts, Regular Season + Postseason - 149
Only NHL goaltender to score a game-winning goal
One of only two NHL goalies to score a goal in both the regular season and the playoffs
First goaltender in history to have 3 shutouts in 2 different playoff series. (1995 against Boston Bruins, 2003 against Anaheim Ducks )
Most consecutive opening night starts with one team (17)
Most Regular Season Wins All Time - 691
Most Regular Season Shutouts - 125
Most Games Played All Time by a Goaltender - 1,266
Most 30 Win Seasons - 13
Most Minutes All Time - 74,438
Most Post-Season Shutouts - 24
Most Career Regular Season Goals by a Goaltender - 2
Most Career Goals (Including Playoffs) by a Goaltender - 3
Most Career Saves - 28,508

The thing is, all of those are compiling stats.

 

[Wierzbowski426]

I think top 10 somewhere.

Definetely behind Roy, Hasek, Price, Durnan, Plante and in a debate between him, Dryden, Hall, Lundqvist, Quick.


The thing is, all of those are compiling stats.

LOL

 

[Rynewed]

So someone who puts him at #6 because they have a firm grasp on over a century’a worth of reasonable contenders to choose from isn’t sensible?

Talk about arrogance.

If you vote top-10 for having two guys interchangeable at 5-6, like that poster said, then youre just purposely trying to affect the results in a negative manner

Voting top-10 for a guy youd never put lower than six. Im surprised you knew how to spell arrogance with your level of logic

 

[Video Nasty]

If you vote top-10 for having two guys interchangeable at 5-6, like that poster said, then youre just purposely trying to affect the results in a negative manner

Voting top-10 for a guy youd never put lower than six. Im surprised you knew how to spell arrogance with your level of logic

Yes, my vote of top 10, for a guy I’d peg at 6 or 7, is me trying to affect the results negatively and doing so in an arrogant manner. I’ll clue you in. Voting top 10 in a poll where top 5 is the next highest option means the player is ranked anywhere from 6 to 10.

But sure, go ahead and pile on, when the core point of my original post is how can Wins and Save% be used to argue Brodeur over Roy, with zero context (like Brodeur never led the league in SV% and wasn’t particularly close on many occasions).

Not to mention that the post you’re quoting me on is a reply to someone saying that any argument at all for Brodeur being outside the top 5 is not sensible and not meant to be taken seriously.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He's definitely a top-10 guy for me, maybe a top-5 but not quite as sure about that.

To me Hasek and Roy are easily the top 2, then Plante is a lock at 3. Then there's a tier with Hall (who I really like), Sawchuk, Brodeur, Dryden. That group can be justified in a bunch of different orders depending on what you like to see in a goalie. So I could see Brodeur as high as 4 or as low as 7, without it being very controversial in either direction.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

Super flawed way of looking at it as there would be very few non North American players
No Ovechkin, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Malkin, Shesterkin, Vasilevskiy ect

Good luck making 6 "super teams" using just NA players.

The competition today is just on a different level. The USA aswell is producing a much higher quantity of talent than ever.

People want to sound sophisticated by bringing up players from way back in the day though.

 

[HabsQC]

I think top 10 somewhere.

Definetely behind Roy, Hasek, Price, Durnan, Plante and in a debate between him, Dryden, Hall, Lundqvist, Quick.


The thing is, all of those are compiling stats.

Maybe but you still have to do it. Longetivoty shouldn't be an handicap. I love guys like Dryden and Bossy, but they have the question mark of would they have done it for a whole career ? Brodeur was excellent until he was old, which is even more impressive if you ask me

 

[Mrb1p]

Maybe but you still have to do it. Longetivoty shouldn't be an handicap. I love guys like Dryden and Bossy, but they have the question mark of would they have done it for a whole career ? Brodeur was excellent until he was old, which is even more impressive if you ask me

Bobby Orr and Mario Lemieux though, why do we consider them so highly? Hasek.

Its pure domination, its always better than compiling IMO. Obviously youd have Gretzky or Bourque like careers where you have both but the world isnt perfect and its easy to see that without outside variables x and y wouldve been able to compile too.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The competition today is just on a different level. The USA aswell is producing a much higher quantity of talent than ever.

People want to sound sophisticated by bringing up players from way back in the day though.

And youth hockey in Canada is at its weakest position since World War II.

Quebec used to be the heart of hockey and now hockey is a cultural side item. There's no Roy or Lafleur or Richard or Beliveau or Lemieux. This generations equivalents went into soccer, other sports, or didn't take up sports at all.

It's not as easy as "today is the best"

 

[HabsQC]

Bobby Orr and Mario Lemieux though, why do we consider them so highly? Hasek.

Its pure domination, its always better than compiling IMO. Obviously youd have Gretzky or Bourque like careers where you have both but the world isnt perfect and its easy to see that without outside variables x and y wouldve been able to compile too.

So youre saying Brodeur was never purely dominant ? I think he was for many many years

 

[Mrb1p]

So youre saying Brodeur was never purely dominant ? I think he was for many many years

Yes he was, but never truly to the level of others? Kind of like... Sakic to Lemieux, Gretz, Crosby ... He became the defacto best goaltender in the leagur when Hasek and Roy faltered. Is it opportunity ?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

So youre saying Brodeur was never purely dominant ? I think he was for many many years

He was but not at an all time greatest level. He filled the void left by Hasek and Roy retiring more than anything.

 

[HabsQC]

Yes he was, but never truly to the level of others? Kind of like... Sakic to Lemieux, Gretz, Crosby ... He became the defacto best goaltender in the leagur when Hasek and Roy faltered. Is it opportunity ?

Hence why I voted #3

He was but not at an all time greatest level. He filled the void left by Hasek and Roy retiring more than anything.

Solid #3 IMO, which is what I voted for. I understand the debate though

 

[Mrb1p]

Hence why I voted #3


Solid #3 IMO, which is what I voted for. I understand the debate though

But then youd be ignoring Plante and Durnan

 

[HabsQC]

But then youd be ignoring Plante and Durnan

Debatable and hard to compare tbh