Where do we go from here?

[leafs in five]

I believe going into the season we were the fourth youngest team in the league.

I can still see an argument for keeping the main pieces together. a lot of the radio stations have been talking about how the really good teams have had the same core fir 5 to 8 years. I don't know if this group with some tweaks could be good enough to be a serious contender.

the really good teams usually have a collection of really good players.

 

[The CyNick]

Those players were brought in to complement a pile of good drafting and development.

Burke put the cart before the horse.

That's a rediculous statement. The core of Boston was still growing when they brought in Chara. It's not like he came in right at the end. They were still bringing guys in that would eventually shape the championship team.

You acquire talent when it comes available. for the most part, the trades the Leafs have made have been positive in terms of asset for asset.

signing Clarkson seems like a mistake right now, but that didn't cost us anything other than money. Who should we have acquired instead? Stephen Weiss?

 

[leafs in five]

That's a rediculous statement. The core of Boston was still growing when they brought in Chara. It's not like he came in right at the end. They were still bringing guys in that would eventually shape the championship team.

You acquire talent when it comes available. for the most part, the trades the Leafs have made have been positive in terms of asset for asset.

signing Clarkson seems like a mistake right now, but that didn't cost us anything other than money. Who should we have acquired instead? Stephen Weiss?

it cost cap space too, for the next seven years. and a buyout.

why do you have to sign a guy just because you have the money to do it?

 

[The CyNick]

the really good teams usually have a collection of really good players.

we have some pieces. We arguably have the best scoring line in the nhl, at least top 5.

Kadri and Lupul are solid secondary scorers.

We have a good young goalie.

We have two decent young dmen who look like they have solid upside.

The issue to me is more around the fact that the coach has been looking for a certain style of play for 70 games and still isn't getting what he wants. As a group we might be the worst team in the league at getting the puck out of the zone. That needs to be addressed. We need to figure out how to show a higher level of compete in every shift.

 

[The CyNick]

it cost cap space too, for the next seven years. and a buyout.

why do you have to sign a guy just because you have the money to do it?

you don't, but the point is it didn't cost us assets.

The cap space is a slippery slope. Who should we have used that cap space on? would Vanek have allowed us to get the puck out of the zone? It's always easy to play the hindsight game. I try to be above that.

 

[Highlander23]

I want to see a frickkin plan, put it on paper !!
In 2 years, we want to be....,
in 4 years, we want to be....,
in 5 years span, we want to reach the finals

Stick the damn plan in the locker room, so everyone can read it every single day of their lives !! If a coach or a player doesn't agree with the plan, show em the door, this franchise need some guts !!

 

[seanlinden]

I want to see a frickkin plan, put it on paper !!
In 2 years, we want to be....,
in 4 years, we want to be....,
in 5 years span, we want to reach the finals

Stick the damn plan in the locker room, so everyone can read it every single day of their lives !! If a coach or a player doesn't agree with the plan, show em the door, this franchise need some guts !!

In 2012-13, we want to be a playoff team....
In 2013-14, we want to win at least 1 playoff round.
In 2014-15, we want to be legitimate cup contenders.


So, the goal this year doesn't appear to be insight... what happens now?

 

[Highlander23]

In 2012-13, we want to be a playoff team....
In 2013-14, we want to win at least 1 playoff round.
In 2014-15, we want to be legitimate cup contenders.


So, the goal this year doesn't appear to be insight... what happens now?

Retooling proved to be a flawed strategy, we need hard measures. A coaching change is a must, get somebody who adapts his style to the strengths of his players, carlyle is stubborn (when stubborn & losing, you are stupid)

I think we can all agree that we can score goals, time to get players to stop the puck from crossing the red line (veterans if possible)

 

[rdawg1234]

I think we took a side-step, but i'm not a pessimistic like some saying this team is flawed at the core.

I actually really like the first line on this team, it's dynamic(net crasher, elite winger, solid two-way centre). Kadri will 100% get better next year, probably leveling out at a 60 point pace player(he's 50 points this year, fell off a bit).

However a few things NEED to happen to bring back some of what we got last year and improve on what we have this year:

1. Komarov needs to return, he brings grit, PK ability, agitating, speed and just solid bottom 6 play, he's a heart and soul, better than Clarkson IMO.

2. Problem: Two-way forwards. Lupul and/or Raymond need to be replaced by a more cycle friendly two way player. Personally I find Lupul and Raymond's game so damn repitive and similar to the rest of the team, we have far too many one-way forwards essentially who play little defense, are soft on the boards and dissapear. Lupul's having an off-year offsenively, but still, too many of our wingers are similar to the kessel mold, keep kessel, upgrade the second line(A Tarasenko, Perron, RoR if you consider him a winger, Andrew Ladd, Dupuis are great examples of what we need, some may be available in a trade for cheap).
Solution: Trade Lupul+ for one of these players above, would instantly help the breakout, cycle and chemistry of our team. The first line can be our rush line, the 2nd+3rd line can be the cycle lines. As of now our whole team plays too much of a counter-rush game.

3. Problem: Defense experience. We have a mix of solid D-men in Phaneuf and Gunnar who are largely in their prime and very inexperienced or poor d-men(Rielly is a couple seasons away, Gardiner is getting closer, Franson is just garbage). We are either mobile and inexperienced with one pairing(gards/rielly) or slow and stupid(Franson/sometimes fraser). We badly need a little bit of mobility on the backend, and franson 100% is the guy that needs to go in the short-term.
Solution: Trade Franson 100% this summer for a pick, sign a solid UFA d-man(Fayne?) and replace franson's minutes with his and a solid prospect like Grannberg.

4. Coaching: Carlyle's system simply may not work. I'll extend this problem for another season though as we definitely dont have good enough players either, give him actual two-way players(which are necessary to win a cup) and see how we do.

 

[Tavares2Matthews]

Seeing Leafs "fans" who say the season is done and turn on them and call for a rebuild or a firing of some sort, it just makes me think of the joker in the Dark Knight when he says "when I say that one little old mayor will die, everyone loses their minds"

Leafs lose 6 in a row and everyone loses their minds!!!! Before this 6 game slide, how would everyone rate this season? I personally thought it was going very well, let's not let a 6 game losing streak make us go crazy, it's at a bad time but let's still give the guys confidence, after all, that's part of our job as fans.

 

[ECanuck]

If we're unable to make the playoffs... there definitely has to be change from a staffing standpoint, whether it be coach or GM.

That being said, we also have to realize -- there's absolutely no appetite for a full on rebuild again like we've been doing in perpetuity for the last 10 years. Nonis has the coach card to play, and that's likely what ends up happening.

Realistically... I think names like Kadri, Lupul, Clarkson, Franson, Gleason & Reimer end up on the block. The targets will be a big right handed #2 defenceman that allows them to succeed with Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Gardiner & Rielly on the blueline, and a centre who provides substantially more consistency and well rounded play than Kadri does.

Since none are available in free agency, we're going to have to come up with an offer that a team just can't refuse.... then hope that whatever cap space we have remaining is able to bring back a few of Raymond/Kulemin/Bolland/McClement to generate some secondary scoring.

Talk about having a tumor in your arm and removing your nuts.
Then crying in the future you have no home grown offspring.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Retooling proved to be a flawed strategy, we need hard measures. A coaching change is a must, get somebody who adapts his style to the strengths of his players, carlyle is stubborn (when stubborn & losing, you are stupid)

I think we can all agree that we can score goals, time to get players to stop the puck from crossing the red line (veterans if possible)

Retooling was a flawed strategy considering how brutal the 'core' of that team 5 years ago was .. This current core of players has significantly more talent, just needs a shake up to improve the leadeship and two way play - agree a coaching change might do it

The first line is one of the best in the league, that shouldn't change .. Maybe the answer is a more balance 2nd and 3rd line combination with speed, grit and size for possession ... Or maybe a new coach would have a more effective 4th line with a quality scoring 2nd line .. A 4th line that does a better grinding and possession job to help balance the line up and reduce the minutes and wear and tear of the other lines

Seriously why even dress a 4th line if you're giving them less than 5 minutes of ice time

 

[rdawg1234]

Retooling was a flawed strategy considering how brutal the 'core' of that team 5 years ago was .. This current core of players has significantly more talent, just needs a shake up to improve the leadeship and two way play - agree a coaching change might do it

The first line is one of the best in the league, that shouldn't change .. Maybe the answer is a more balance 2nd and 3rd line combination with speed, grit and size for possession ... Or maybe a new coach would have a more effective 4th line with a quality scoring 2nd line .. A 4th line that does a better grinding and possession job to help balance the line up and reduce the minutes and wear and tear of the other lines

Seriously why even dress a 4th line if you're giving them less than 5 minutes of ice time

Problem is there is no solid replacement out there. Laviolette who keeps being mentioned uses a system that won't win cups in this league that is now filled with two-way play and defensive structure, rush teams simply dont thrive anymore(or really, have they ever?)

But if babcock or ken hitchcock become available bye bye carlyle.

 

[TheGroceryStick]

fanoof

 

[Highlander23]

Problem is there is no solid replacement out there. Laviolette who keeps being mentioned uses a system that won't win cups in this league that is now filled with two-way play and defensive structure, rush teams simply dont thrive anymore(or really, have they ever?)

But if babcock or ken hitchcock become available bye bye carlyle.

Time to get the new babcock (Detroit AHL team's coach jeff blashill)

 

[dsf]

Seeing Leafs "fans" who say the season is done and turn on them and call for a rebuild or a firing of some sort, it just makes me think of the joker in the Dark Knight when he says "when I say that one little old mayor will die, everyone loses their minds"

Leafs lose 6 in a row and everyone loses their minds!!!! Before this 6 game slide, how would everyone rate this season? I personally thought it was going very well, let's not let a 6 game losing streak make us go crazy, it's at a bad time but let's still give the guys confidence, after all, that's part of our job as fans.

Come on.. even the most die hard fans have to have some sensible thoughts about their team's situation. If this 6 game slide was earlier, I'd be confident that we could come out of it. Unfortunately it occurred at the absolute worst time.

Under 25% playoff chances with 8 games left in which we have to win 6 I believe is as good as out of it.

I hope and pray that they run the table and squeeze in, but for my mental health I need to face the facts. Doesn't mean I won't be cheering for them when I go and see them in Florida on the second last game of the season. It would be incredible if that game was meaningful!.. but a far cry from reality too.

 

[DaveT83*]

Stop letting others bring you down to their level. – Refuse to lower your standards to accommodate those who refuse to raise theirs.


The "True Fans" on here want you to be happy with these results. Why I'm not sure. I know some of them are literally employed by MLSE.

Personally its unacceptable.

 

[seanlinden]

Retooling proved to be a flawed strategy, we need hard measures. A coaching change is a must, get somebody who adapts his style to the strengths of his players, carlyle is stubborn (when stubborn & losing, you are stupid)

I think we can all agree that we can score goals, time to get players to stop the puck from crossing the red line (veterans if possible)

So what are you suggesting? Fire the GM and let another GM build the team in his image? That's going to change our culture of losing???

We've gone through 3 coaches in the last 6 years... what makes you think #4 is going to be any different?

Talk about having a tumor in your arm and removing your nuts.
Then crying in the future you have no home grown offspring.

What's your suggestion? If our home grown talent was capable of leading us to success, I'd be all for keeping them.

 

[horner]

That's a rediculous statement. The core of Boston was still growing when they brought in Chara. It's not like he came in right at the end. They were still bringing guys in that would eventually shape the championship team.

You acquire talent when it comes available. for the most part, the trades the Leafs have made have been positive in terms of asset for asset.

signing Clarkson seems like a mistake right now, but that didn't cost us anything other than money. Who should we have acquired instead? Stephen Weiss?

Iam really shocked that we didnt take a run at

Filppula

and the yr before
Prust ( heart and soul )

 

[Highlander23]

So what are you suggesting? Fire the GM and let another GM build the team in his image? That's going to change our culture of losing???

We've gone through 3 coaches in the last 6 years... what makes you think #4 is going to be any different?

All of these coaches are old school, out-dated, the carlyles, wilsons, trotz, tortorellas of the world don't work anymore !! its not about the coache's name, its about the style and the capacity to adapt. The problem relies from management, coaches and players, changes should be impactfull from top to bottom

 

[seanlinden]

All of these coaches are old school, out-dated, the carlyles, wilsons, trotz, tortorellas of the world don't work anymore !! its not about the coache's name, its about the style and the capacity to adapt. The problem relies from management, coaches and players, changes should be impactfull from top to bottom

Maurice is pretty new-school as far as coaches go.

 

[horner]

Moving forward this is what I think we need

A Power Centre in the mold of a Stall or Thornton type
- Big Strong someone to slide into the number 2 slot
- For the times when we play the Bruins, St.Louis and the rest of the big boys

A Big Strong Defensive Sound Defense Man
- To play with Gardner or Rielly

Love to find the next Gallager, Ott, Marchant and etc
- Gallager ( even pisses Chara off )

Leo come home we miss what you bring to our team

Where we get these players from I dont know but we need to get tougher to play against the big boys.

We have to many player that dont do everything it takes to win

Heart Passion and Hate to lose

Who would I like to see gone next yr
G
Riemer

Def.
Gunnar and Fransson ( Are not Sound in the D zone or tough )

Forward
Kadri
Lupul
Raymond
Clarkson
Orr

All of these players Give away the puck way way to much

I would love to leave a couple or three spots open for the kids on the Marlies.


WE ARE NOT TEAM TOUGH
i DONT THINK TEAMS ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT PLAYING US

 

[Ratboy]

We have to identify players who just haven't or cannot show up to the big game for whatever reason.

Try to get something for them.

Keep Bernier, trade Reimer for whatever you can get. Get a reliable backup through FA or trade.

Keep Reilly, Gardiner, Gleason (for veteran leadership). Gunnar too, I've liked him this season. Don't care for the rest of the D.

Up front keep Kessel, JVR, Bozak (that's our only real line).

Trade Lupul, trade Kadri if you get a good deal (I think the kids lazy, unmotivated, indifferent, whatever). Try to keep Bolland if you can re-sign him to a decent deal, injury issues aside he's one of the few legit veterans this team has (with winning pedigree).

Keep Kulemin, the guy can play D (one of our few two way forwards) and was actually hitting last night. Fill the rest of the positions with kids from the system. McClement is a good 4th line/PKing centre, don't see a reason to change him. Get Komarov back to insert some balls to the bottom 6.

If we make the playoffs next year, cool. If not, hope you get a good pick.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[agropop]

One minute of offensive zone possession is far more valuable than one minute of world class defensive zone coverage.

Our utter and complete inability to possess the puck down low and establish a forecheck is by a country mile the most glaring weakness this team has.

Our top line, eating up the largest portion of our minutes and situational opportunities is virtually useless in this regard. They rush, and our possession ends with either a goal, a stoppage, or us chasing it the other way... Chasing it the other way the most likely statistically. You can probably count the number of Fenwick game charts we've won all year on one hand. We spend two thirds of most games chasing the puck around our own end, partially because of our terrible defensive zone coverage, but also because we're incapable of possessing the puck down low and cycling minutes off the clock even if nothing occurs offensively of note.

Again, one minute of offensive zone possession is better than one minute of world class defensive zone coverage.

When the top line, playing the most minutes, can't keep the puck deep, then the next line has to start at the bottom of the hill and work that much harder. It just taxes it's way down the lineup.

We need to get bigger, stronger, and better down the middle starting at the top.

A big, strong centre who can drive possession, cycle, and forecheck is what we need, and it's effect would reverberate down the lineup. By simply spending fewer minutes in our own zone, and taking fewer Dzone face offs, everyone becomes better defensively, and our goalies aren't subject to randomness and bad luck as much.

Bozak is a possession disaster, always has been, he needs to be replaced or demoted if this team is ever going to improve.

 

[seanlinden]

One minute of offensive zone possession is far more valuable than one minute of world class defensive zone coverage.

Our utter and complete inability to possess the puck down low and establish a forecheck is by a country mile the most glaring weakness this team has.

Our top line, eating up the largest portion of our minutes and situational opportunities is virtually useless in this regard. They rush, and our possession ends with either a goal, a stoppage, or us chasing it the other way... Chasing it the other way the most likely statistically. You can probably count the number of Fenwick game charts we've won all year on one hand. We spend two thirds of most games chasing the puck around our own end, partially because of our terrible defensive zone coverage, but also because we're incapable of possessing the puck down low and cycling minutes off the clock even if nothing occurs offensively of note.

Again, one minute of offensive zone possession is better than one minute of world class defensive zone coverage.

When the top line, playing the most minutes, can't keep the puck deep, then the next line has to start at the bottom of the hill and work that much harder. It just taxes it's way down the lineup.

We need to get bigger, stronger, and better down the middle starting at the top.

A big, strong centre who can drive possession, cycle, and forecheck is what we need, and it's effect would reverberate down the lineup. By simply spending fewer minutes in our own zone, and taking fewer Dzone face offs, everyone becomes better defensively, and our goalies aren't subject to randomness and bad luck as much.

Bozak is a possession disaster, always has been, he needs to be replaced or demoted if this team is ever going to improve.

Bozak isn't the problem on that line -- Kessel is.