OT: Where do the Sens rank in the Atlantic for 2024-2025?

[PoutineSp00nZ]

So basically, a little PR is all it took. lol

I basically said some new information presents itself and it made me more cautiously optimistic about the potential of the signing. I'm not fawning all over Green, I'm not convinced he is the next Jaques for this team. Nor do I think that most people who are onboard for Green are that way all all.

I just want this team to be successful, and I'd much rather be hopeful that my initial reaction was wrong than have Green crash and burn and get to prove myself right to a bunch of strangers on the internet.

 

[SENStastic]

I basically said some new information presents itself and it made me more cautiously optimistic about the potential of the signing. I'm not fawning all over Green, I'm not convinced he is the next Jaques for this team. Nor do I think that most people who are onboard for Green are that way all all.

I just want this team to be successful, and I'd much rather be hopeful that my initial reaction was wrong than have Green crash and burn and get to prove myself right to a bunch of strangers on the internet.

Yes so does everyone else here, no one wants the pain of constant failure to continue any longer. Changing your opinion just based on the fact that they ran some PR after the hire is pure copium. But let's hope it works, I see no reason to change opinion on him until he proves everyone wrong, but im not holding my breath on it either.

 

[milkbag]

I am not a Dorion fan. Never was. Thought we should get someone else more experienced and successful than him as GM. Have the same view on Staios.

PS: I don't like the geriatric vets he obtained.

So you're hyperfixating on Perron then? Weird hill to die on. Amadio is 28, Gregor is 25, Ulmark is 30. Jensen will still be younger than Perron when his contract expires. Hardly geriatric across the board...

Staios laid out a plan and followed it, let's see how it turns out. Might not be able to make t-shirts and do cartwheels over the moves but he deserves more than a month into the off season before the tears start.

 

[LiseL]

He couldn't conceivably do worse, so he'll do....better.

I remember Ullmark talking about Bob, Boston's goalie coach, on one of his interviews after he was traded here. Said he really helped him improve his game. It is conceivable that he can help Korpi also. If Korpi's eyesight and sightlines (helmet) were a factor, those issues are being addressed. Also, Korpi will be the backup, I think he'll be much better in Boston.

 

[LiseL]

Well the "Summer of Pierre" looked great to everyone...

This is a better team on paper than anything we have iced since Karlsson left. Better players, better organisation, better balance and better depth (which might get even better)

This team should compete for the playoffs. The fact that the East is a murderers row it the main reason it won't be easy.

I think we played reasonably well against some of the contenders in the Eastern conference last year (Toronto, Boston, Tampa), it was the western road trips that were awful, even against terrible teams. Just cleaning that up will make a big difference.

 

[Micklebot]

As of right now, we're both tied for first and last, I expect we'll finish somewhere in between those two though.

 

[Cosmix]

So you're hyperfixating on Perron then? Weird hill to die on. Amadio is 28, Gregor is 25, Ulmark is 30. Jensen will still be younger than Perron when his contract expires. Hardly geriatric across the board...

Staios laid out a plan and followed it, let's see how it turns out. Might not be able to make t-shirts and do cartwheels over the moves but he deserves more than a month into the off season before the tears start.

Perron and Jensen.

 

[bert]

I think @bert mentioned he heard about it well before the media pick up on it, not sure what he thought about that though

That said, whether he was touted as a potential great hire or not doesn't really change the point, Green will have a big impact on the team, either positive or negative.

I did hear from a contact he was the front runner and did mention it. Thanks for the acknowledgement. Last time I said something that I heard it was met with way more back lash. I guess people only want to hear positive stuff haha.

I think Franki Corrado is a very bright hockey mind and articulates himself very well. He breaks down the details of game as well as anyone. Worth a listen in my opinion. He talked about how good of a coach green was way before the sens hired him. So that gave me some piece of mind. He talked about Babcock too, in comparison Green seems way more forward thinking. But also holds his players accountable.

 

[bert]

The only new info presented is that Green was actually hired by the Sens. That's all. It shouldn't be a basis to all the sudden change your opinion. That makes no sense unless you're just backing anything the team does automatically.

I mean no everyone just automatically hated the hire. With 0 research outside of one category. His record with a shitty Canucks team that had a terrible GM.

As soon as anyone took a deeper dive like anyone should in any hire there were some positives. It was up to the person if they want to be open minded to looking at it or not. Most here have too big of an ego to admit that maybe their initial knee jerk reaction with next to no research may have the potential to be incorrect.

The truth of the matter is a person like Corrado or Ferraro know more about the sport than anyone that posts here. Again an ego thing if someone doesn't want to consider their opinion.

Green also has had lots of success at every level he has coached other than his stint with the Canucks.

The truth if the matter is no one knows for sure if he will be a good fit or not. But based on the information provided I think he's the right type of coach for this group. He will be hard on them and hold them accountable. He isn't a dinosaur, he has experience and he played in the league for a long time.

If you aren't willing to give him a chance then that's your own prerogative. You probably don't want the team to succeed. So are you really a fan? I dunno.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Yes so does everyone else here, no one wants the pain of constant failure to continue any longer. Changing your opinion just based on the fact that they ran some PR after the hire is pure copium. But let's hope it works, I see no reason to change opinion on him until he proves everyone wrong, but im not holding my breath on it either.

Perhaps what I heard after the hire wasn't new information, but it was information that I personally hadn't heard. I think there was enough there to paint a picture of what kind of coach Green is, a picture I wasn't aware of, and I think it is promising in theory. Will it play out that way in reality? Who knows. But Im not basing this opinion on PR releases from Sens tiktok or twitter and I don't think most Sens fans do either. At least not the nerds who post on social media about hockey like us.

I disagree that the info I'm basing my new opinion on was team PR. But if that's what you believe, and anyone who changes their mind based on the opinions of some more knowledgeable than ourselves are just towing the company line there really isn't much else to argue.

Here is hoping for a good season.

 

[SENStastic]

I mean no everyone just automatically hated the hire. With 0 research outside of one category. His record with a shitty Canucks team that had a terrible GM.

As soon as anyone took a deeper dive like anyone should in any hire there were some positives. It was up to the person if they want to be open minded to looking at it or not. Most here have too big of an ego to admit that maybe their initial knee jerk reaction with next to no research may have the potential to be incorrect.

The truth of the matter is a person like Corrado or Ferraro know more about the sport than anyone that posts here. Again an ego thing if someone doesn't want to consider their opinion.

Green also has had lots of success at every level he has coached other than his stint with the Canucks.

The truth if the matter is no one knows for sure if he will be a good fit or not. But based on the information provided I think he's the right type of coach for this group. He will be hard on them and hold them accountable. He isn't a dinosaur, he has experience and he played in the league for a long time.

If you aren't willing to give him a chance then that's your own prerogative. You probably don't want the team to succeed. So are you really a fan? I dunno.

The only thing I agree with is that he'll be tougher on them, he won't be all buddy buddy with the squad like Smith was. And if I don't support the hire it means I probably don't want the team to succeed? Really? That's what you're actually implying? Like I want another decade of mediocre leadership for the only team I actually care about and follow? Thats what you think because he's got a record as dismal as our last coach? Thats funny, because if anything, I would be cheering this hire if I really wanted that, not opposing it. That's a rich take. Do you want the team to succeed? Or are you just on board with anything the GM does, regardless how much it benefits the success of the team or not? Who on earth wanted Green to be next HC before he was actually hired, did you? Because I didn't, and still don't. We're trying our best to put lipstick on a pig here. Bottom barrel hire yet again. But ya, I'm the one that doesn't want the team to succeed, sure there bud. Nice gaslighting there.

 

[aragorn]

I expect & hope that they are able to increase their point standings by 10 to 15 pts next season. . They have improved in net, they have balanced out their top 4 D with the addition of Jensen & hopefully they get their 3rd pairing fixed with Kleven, Hamonic & JBD. They also have added depth scoring with Perron & have added some much needed snarl to their bottom six along with some decent depth signings. Have they improved enoiugh to make the playoffs? Maybe, but I think they will be close right to the end of the season, we have to keep in mind that we play in the toughest division & Florida in our division won the cup. Toronto, Boston & Tamp are also strong teams in the division.

 

[Loach]

I expect & hope that they are able to increase their point standings by 10 to 15 pts next season. . They have improved in net, they have balanced out their top 4 D with the addition of Jensen & hopefully they get their 3rd pairing fixed with Kleven, Hamonic & JBD. They also have added depth scoring with Perron & have added some much needed snarl to their bottom six along with some decent depth signings. Have they improved enoiugh to make the playoffs? Maybe, but I think they will be close right to the end of the season, we have to keep in mind that we play in the toughest division & Florida in our division won the cup. Toronto, Boston & Tamp are also strong teams in the division.

One thing for sure. We won't see long losing streaks and the road record will be better. Consistancy.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The only thing I agree with is that he'll be tougher on them, he won't be all buddy buddy with the squad like Smith was. And if I don't support the hire it means I probably don't want the team to succeed? Really? That's what you're actually implying? Like I want another decade of mediocre leadership for the only team I actually care about and follow? Thats what you think because he's got a record as dismal as our last coach? Thats funny, because if anything, I would be cheering this hire if I really wanted that, not opposing it. That's a rich take. Do you want the team to succeed? Or are you just on board with anything the GM does, regardless how much it benefits the success of the team or not? Who on earth wanted Green to be next HC before he was actually hired, did you? Because I didn't, and still don't. We're trying our best to put lipstick on a pig here. Bottom barrel hire yet again. But ya, I'm the one that doesn't want the team to succeed, sure there bud. Nice gaslighting there.

There weren't much for slam dunk candidates this year unfortunately. I had trouble getting excited about any of them. Gruden was originally assumed was their target and many thought that was a done deal. Berube off the table with him preferring the Leafs and he appears to be pretty overrated when analyzing his career so far. There was some hope guys like Rod the Bod, Sullivan and Montgomery might come available, but that never happened and was never realistic for small market Ottawa anyways. Quenville with baggage and wasn't approved yet. Some re-treads tossed out like Julien or Vigneault, but that's uninspiring imo. Then there's other guys in a situation like Green where they're looking at getting a second chance after a miss on their first like, Sheldon Keefe. The name is escaping me atm, but the guy fired by Minnesota seemed like maybe would have been reasonable.

 

[SENStastic]

There weren't much for slam dunk candidates this year unfortunately. I had trouble getting excited about any of them. Gruden was originally assumed was their target and many thought that was a done deal. Berube off the table with him preferring the Leafs and he appears to be pretty overrated when analyzing his career so far. There was some hope guys like Rod the Bod, Sullivan and Montgomery might come available, but that never happened and was never realistic for small market Ottawa anyways. Quenville with baggage and wasn't approved yet. Some re-treads tossed out like Julien or Vigneault, but that's uninspiring imo. Then there's other guys in a situation like Green where they're looking at getting a second chance after a miss on their first like, Sheldon Keefe. The name is escaping me atm, but the guy fired by Minnesota seemed like maybe would have been reasonable.

Dean Evason was the guy from Minny. He would've been a top candidate, I agree.

 

[bert]

The only thing I agree with is that he'll be tougher on them, he won't be all buddy buddy with the squad like Smith was. And if I don't support the hire it means I probably don't want the team to succeed? Really? That's what you're actually implying? Like I want another decade of mediocre leadership for the only team I actually care about and follow? Thats what you think because he's got a record as dismal as our last coach? Thats funny, because if anything, I would be cheering this hire if I really wanted that, not opposing it. That's a rich take. Do you want the team to succeed? Or are you just on board with anything the GM does, regardless how much it benefits the success of the team or not? Who on earth wanted Green to be next HC before he was actually hired, did you? Because I didn't, and still don't. We're trying our best to put lipstick on a pig here. Bottom barrel hire yet again. But ya, I'm the one that doesn't want the team to succeed, sure there bud. Nice gaslighting there.

If you have read my post history and think I just cheer on every decision the organization makes I am not sure if you have read my content very often.

Lipstick on a pig? I will revert back to the post that you quoted. Evaluating a coach before they are hired based on one thing then suggesting your opinion on the matter supersedes not only Staios and Poulin who have roughly 2000 NHL games. Or Jaques Martin who was also part of the hiring process then I am sorry I just cant get behind that. They interviewed 8 candidates. Do you listen to Corrado consistently? If so do you not agree with his content? This is not a bottom of the barrel hire on any level. This is a coach who has had success at every level and in his first opportunity in the NHL didnt have alot. But look at the organization he was working for the GM and the roster he was coaching. A player that played for him who is a very sharp hockey mind talked about how good of a coach he was months before he was hired. Why wouldnt you take that into account?

You havent provided a reason as to why its such a bad hire. What dont you like about it exactly?

Evaluating players is alot easier than a coach. You physically see them perform. To me you need to listen to the experts and their experiences with the coach over specifically looking at one aspect like his record on a bad canucks team.

 

[Cosmix]

As of right now, we're both tied for first and last, I expect we'll finish somewhere in between those two though.

Perceptive are we?

 

[Micklebot]

The only new info presented is that Green was actually hired by the Sens. That's all. It shouldn't be a basis to all the sudden change your opinion. That makes no sense unless you're just backing anything the team does automatically.

Framing "new information" as things that have happened since x date is a fundamental flawed way to judge whether it is reasonable to change ones opinion.

What actually matters is when you became aware of something, so if we hire Green, you may only know what Hockey DB says about him, then you or I dig into his coaching style beyond his record on hockey DB by reading past interviews, listening to current and past players describe their experience with him, doing a deeper dive into the context of his past performance, ext, and as you are exposed to information you were previously unaware of it is perfectly reasonable to change your opinion.

What is unreasonable is to have strong opinions that you're unwilling to change about things or people you only have a passing knowledge of.

The tricky thing about evaluating coaches is you don't see direct evidence of their performance, you have to under it from what players do.

 

[Loach]

We went 0-5 twice and 0-4 once on road trips last year right?

 

[The Waffler]

We went 0-5 twice and 0-4 once on road trips last year right?

That sounds about right. I’m pretty sure they won like 2 away games vs the West all season.

 

[Xspyrit]

Whatever, it's possible, but they can have the bum. He might have one of his 1 in 3 outliers for them, but I'm just glad to be free of his contract. Korpisalo's resume sucks, he's had 3 quality seasons out of 9, only 2 in the last 8, so at least Ullmark has that going for him and would be defying career norms if he were to play poorly in Ottawa.

It's not really Ullmark vs Korpisalo though, it's the Bruins team's defense vs ours. I think Ullmark is more talented but it all comes to down to us finally "playing the right way". Goaltending IN OTTAWA has basically been the hardest job in the NHL for years.

Last year's roster was missing Pinto for 41 games, Norris for 32 games, Chabot for 31 games, Traded Tarasenko for the final ~25 games,
Add to that the upgrade from League worst goaltending to a guy that won the Vezina, and this roster is really much better than last years when you assume reasonable health.

Better goaltending would make the biggest difference because our goalies were really bad last season but we also have NOT helped the goalies for years. It's all about the overall team game the coaching staff will have this group playing

Better health could really help too but there's always injuries. However in Norris and Chabot's cases, it would be great to have them healthy as they haven't been for 2-3 seasons now

Boston will be an interesting case,
Lindholm in, but DeBrusk out.
Zadorov in, but Grzelcyk and Forbert out.

and the big one, going from Ullmark to Korpisalo.

They've improved, but they did it by replacing pretty good players, so the net difference isn't as big as it could be.

Yeah but they don't need Ullmark that much with Swayman being ready to be a N.1. Korpisalo could do fine in front of one of the best "team defense" in the NHL

Grzelcyk's game (who is very similar to Brannstrom btw) dropped a lot recently, Zadorov is a huge upgrade right now. And while DeBrusk is a nice player, Elias is a gigantic add. One of the biggest factors for them is also Lohrei progression, this guy could become quite good.

Yes and now, I agree everyone will have a good statline when they get good goaltending, but the issue is how rarely we got good goaltending,

Agreed, we haven't gotten a lot of great goaltending during the rebuild but last season was easily the worst we got.

Joseph certainly had a good year, but that was a career year and he's notoriously streaky. I'm not convinced he'll reproduce those numbers, and Perron adds different elements. 9 years older isn't really relevant, we care about what they do for the duration of their contracts, they are not core pieces. I'll gladly take Perron over Joseph, I'm fairly confidient he will outproduce Joseph this year, while adding grit and leadership that Joseph does not. Having said that, I would have preferred to keep Joseph over adding Amidio, that's the more comparable player imo.

God I hope Perron outproduces Joseph this season. He costs 1 M$ more, is an offensive player and will be fed a lot of PP time. We had to give away a 3rd to move Joseph too. I am a bit wary of this signing, like I was with Kubalik last off-season (if you remember). I think it can't be as bad as Kubalik though.

Speaking of Joseph, yes he is streaky offensively but he is a defensive player first and foremost and I thought that kind of player is what we DEARLY missed during whole Dorion's rebuild.

Also, looking at Joseph raw numbers (on hockeydb.com for example) is misleading, his PPG over the years :

2020-21 : 0.34
2021-22 : 0.43
2022-23 : 0.32
2023-24 : 0.49

With Joseph, you get a defensively responsible player who excels on the PK and will provide around 30 pts at ES (per 82 games played). I'd want more of these, we have enough guys for the PP (like last year, I predicted Kubalik wouldn't produce as usual)

No he isn't, but he is quick to get up to speed which is sometimes more practical that being faster. Well have to wait and see how they pan out, but imo Joseph is replaceable, and wasn't going to play the same role Perron will so the comparison is an odd one.

Yeah I think it's the first steps acceleration that makes Joseph look so fast. Most NHL players can be very fast but not all of them have "nitro" like a Formenton.

I'm not trying to compare Joseph and Perron for their roles but more how wem decided to spend the money. I would have preferred to sign Amadio and keep Joseph

Greig - Stutzle - Giroux
Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Joseph - Pinto - Amadio

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's not really Ullmark vs Korpisalo though, it's the Bruins team's defense vs ours. I think Ullmark is more talented but it all comes to down to us finally "playing the right way". Goaltending IN OTTAWA has basically been the hardest job in the NHL for years.

At least Ullmark gives reason to believe unlike Korpisalo. It is true that their defence has struggled too, but Korpisalo being bad in Ottawa just aligns with most of his career whereas Ullmark has never had a bad season in the league on two teams.

The moves weren't sexy and I know you don't love some of them, but imo they massively improved in net, mixed up the D with a top 4 defensive RD even if just a stop gap, and they got some forwards up front I think will bring the right elements. Kleven at least fits the mold of what they need on paper for the 3rd pair. Switching up a third of the roster in general. Pinto the full season. New coaching staff. Belleville investment. I think they can combine it all into better defensive and in general, on ice performance. Hopefully still a depth signing or 2 though.

 

[bert]

At least Ullmark gives reason to believe unlike Korpisalo. It is true that their defence has struggled too, but Korpisalo being bad in Ottawa just aligns with most of his career whereas Ullmark has never had a bad season in the league on two teams.

The moves weren't sexy and I know you don't love some of them, but imo they massively improved in net, mixed up the D with a top 4 defensive RD even if just a stop gap, and they got some forwards up front I think will bring the right elements. Kleven at least fits the mold of what they need on paper for the 3rd pair. Switching up a third of the roster in general. Pinto the full season. New coaching staff. Belleville investment. I think they can combine it all into better defensive and in general, on ice performance. Hopefully still a depth signing or 2 though.

Good post, yeah they need another forward and NHL D man. I'm hoping for Cousins and Schultz.

I'd be pretty pumped for this lineup to start the season.

Tkachuk Pinto Batherson
Norris Stutzle Giroux
Perron Grieg Amadio
Gregor Ostapchuk Cousins
Macewen

Sanderson Zub
Chabot Jensen
Kleven Schultz
Hamonic JBD

Ullmark
Forsberg

 

[Micklebot]

Good post, yeah they need another forward and NHL D man. I'm hoping for Cousins and Schultz.

I'd be pretty pumped for this lineup to start the season.

Tkachuk Pinto Batherson
Norris Stutzle Giroux
Perron Grieg Amadio
Gregor Ostapchuk Cousins
Macewen

Sanderson Zub
Chabot Jensen
Kleven Schultz
Hamonic JBD

Ullmark
Forsberg

I think ideally, you are right, a vet 4th line forward and a #5/6 D to push JBD down would be great,

but, I don't think it's in the cards. I suspect what we have now will be pretty close to what we see opening night,
We signed Gaudette as that fringe forward to push MacEwen for a spot and will let Guenette, JBD Mantipalo and Hamonic fight it out for that 6th D spot

 

[bert]

I think ideally, you are right, a vet 4th line forward and a #5/6 D to push JBD down would be great,

but, I don't think it's in the cards. I suspect what we have now will be pretty close to what we see opening night,
We signed Gaudette as that fringe forward to push MacEwen for a spot and will let Guenette, JBD Mantipalo and Hamonic fight it out for that 6th D spot

Those players are all on two way deals. I dont agree at all. Gaudette is not a 200 foot player he wont be on the 4th line 0 chance. Staios has been talking about the type of players they want for months.

They didn't just burn a pick to trade Joseph for no reason. I think they are waiting for those players prices to come down its July 11th. They have some cap space to be flexible but not too flexible.