OT: Where do the Sens rank in the Atlantic for 2024-2025?

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Loach

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Jun 9, 2021
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All the talk about Joseph on this board & all they could get back for Joseph & a 3rd was future considerations. It's a head shaker.:huh:
Cap space, roster flexibility. Personally I think he's just a flake. That's why we moved him and had to pay to do it. Hahaha.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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Other teams too if it cost a 3rd
Potentially. I could see that more being an issue of production vs. cost, while cap space is tight, but I don't think the league as a whole is as enamored with him as a player as HF Sens seemed to be.

He has put up a few points in Ottawa, but his goal scoring I could see teams not loving. He's averaged 12.5/82 over his NHL career and only about 11/82 in his last 3 seasons. 3 Mil might be a bit much for that.
 
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Loach

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Potentially. I could see that more being an issue of production vs. cost, while cap space is tight, but I don't think the league as a whole is as enamored with him as a player as HF Sens seemed to be.

He has put up a few points in Ottawa, but his goal scoring I could see teams not loving. He's averaged 12.5/82 over his NHL career and only about 11/82 in his last 3 seasons. 3 Mil might be a bit much for that.
Kinda one dimensiaonal too.
 
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Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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I literally listed how the two bottom teams in the division still have 88 and 87 points....... In my post I talk about how much parity there is going to be in the east with very few high end teams. But not very many bad ones either. I think the teams with the 3 best records in the east will be in the Metro.

ok then I guess it's possible. Florida losing 12 pts and Boston 9 pts, shared within the division between the progressing teams (Ottawa, Buffalo, etc)

The Rangers and Canes are quite good but who would be that 3rd team? Caps? Maybe Devils or Flyers

As for the rest of your post you really dont seem to grasp the concept of players playing in their correct roles and teams are being built with a purpose. Not just accumulating as much talent as they can when its fitting a square peg into a round hole. They have a better HOCKEY team this year. Players with defined roles and jobs, playing in positions to succeed. Players that are not inconsistent, that have more leadership and hockey sense. For all the hating you do on Dorion you dont seem to recognize that his biggest fault of all was not understanding how to build a hockey team. He has never been in a room he doesnt know the sport this way. He was a good scout, he could identify talent he could not and did not know how to build a winner with a strong culture. Thankfully real hockey people are making the decisions now that have actually been there.

lol I have been talking about "proper roster construction" for years. There was so many Dorion "faults" that it's impossible to mention everything in every post.

It's ok if you believe that having a declining 34 y/o instead of Chabot/Chychrun on RD will fix this team but personally I think it comes down to :

- much better goaltending
- efficient 2-way coaching (play "the right way")
- more health from Chabot, Norris and Stutzle (and even Zub, no serious injury to key players)
- continued progression of Sanderson, Stutzle, Pinto and Greig

All of this happens and we are a contender IMO (but no playoffs experience though)

That said, outside of replacing Chychrun with a real RHD, not sure why the other changes are much more "fitting"

Perron vs Tarasenko : Perron brings different elements than Tarasenko but thought Tank was actually quite decent last season. 33 ESP in just 57 games. Perron had 30 ESP in 76 games. Neither are defensive stalwarts at this point but Perron could be an upgrade defensively and physically at least. I don't mind this change but wish it was a one year deal

Amadio vs Joseph : I don't see what's so wrong about the way Joseph plays. He's a really good skater very often first on pucks, He plays with fire and feistiness and excels on the PK. He scored more ESP than perron last season. Amadio has a better scoring touch and went to the "right school" in Vegas so at least he shouldn't be a downgrade but I don't like the speed we're losing in Joseph. Today's league is about speed, hockey IQ, transition ability and skill.

Gregor vs Kelly : Kelly is much tougher, more physical and better defensively. Gregor is a better skater and both are probably equal offensively. Also don't see how this change contributes to building a team with a "purpose"

Kleven vs Brannstrom : Kleven has the size for the corners and in front of the net but lacks NHL experience and we have no idea how good he's going to be in transition/play driving. Maybe I'm not realistic but I don't expect Kleven to be better in his rookie year. Maybe optically for some he will but what interests me is to outchance and outscore the other team. That is why I'd much much rather have a guy like Brannstrom than Hamonic, for example.
 
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bert

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ok then I guess it's possible. Florida losing 12 pts and Boston 9 pts, shared within the division between the progressing teams (Ottawa, Buffalo, etc)

The Rangers and Canes are quite good but who would be that 3rd team? Caps? Maybe Devils or Flyers



lol I have been talking about "proper roster construction" for years. There was so many Dorion "faults" that it's impossible to mention everything in every post.

It's ok if you believe that having a declining 34 y/o instead of Chabot/Chychrun on RD will fix this team but personally I think it comes down to :

- much better goaltending
- efficient 2-way coaching (play "the right way")
- more health from Chabot, Norris and Stutzle (and even Zub, no serious injury to key players)
- continued progression of Sanderson, Stutzle, Pinto and Greig

All of this happens and we are a contender IMO (but no playoffs experience though)

That said, outside of replacing Chychrun with a real RHD, not sure why the other changes are much more "fitting"

Perron vs Tarasenko : Perron brings different elements than Tarasenko but thought Tank was actually quite decent last season. 33 ESP in just 57 games. Perron had 30 ESP in 76 games. Neither are defensive stalwarts at this point but Perron could be an upgrade defensively and physically at least. I don't mind this change but wish it was a one year deal

Amadio vs Joseph : I don't see what's so wrong about the way Joseph plays. He's a really good skater very often first on pucks, He plays with fire and feistiness and excels on the PK. He scored more ESP than perron last season. Amadio has a better scoring touch and went to the "right school" in Vegas so at least he shouldn't be a downgrade but I don't like the speed we're losing in Joseph. Today's league is about speed, hockey IQ, transition ability and skill.

Gregor vs Kelly : Kelly is much tougher, more physical and better defensively. Gregor is a better skater and both are probably equal offensively. Also don't see how this change contributes to building a team with a "purpose"

Kleven vs Brannstrom : Kleven has the size for the corners and in front of the net but lacks NHL experience and we have no idea how good he's going to be in transition/play driving. Maybe I'm not realistic but I don't expect Kleven to be better in his rookie year. Maybe optically for some he will but what interests me is to outchance and outscore the other team. That is why I'd much much rather have a guy like Brannstrom than Hamonic, for example.
You claim to understand roster construction then spend 5 paragraphs contradicting this ability.
 

Tuna99

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Sep 26, 2009
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‘Eye of the Tiger’ wise the Sens are at the top of the Atlantic with Boston and Florida. Talent wise they are below the top 3. I think skill wise they are as good as Tampa so we’ll see

Ottawa - 140 points
Boston - 105 points
Florida - 99 points
Tampa - 96 points
Toronto 96 points
Buffalo - 25 points
Detroit - 24 points
Montreal - 8 points
 
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Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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Well I guess for starters, outside of goaltending is something I take a bit of issue with as a statement. I am bullish on Ullmark vs. Korpisalo. There's 10 football fields between Korpisalo's ability and Ullmark's ability imo. Absolutely massive to go from arguably the worst starter in the league and a guy that was never suited for being a #1 to a guy that's never had a bad season in the league. Maybe I'm just excited because I railed against the Korpisalo signing so hard, he'd had 1 good season on the backs of 3 very poor ones prior to it, so he had no business getting that deal. I tried to accept it after the fact but in the back of my mind just tried to consider him a placeholder that hopefully would survive long enough to pass the torch. I'm ecstatic to go in to the season with a guy I can believe is capable of being "the guy" instead of someone I'm waiting to GTFO for a real solution.

That is hyperbole. Korpisalo is a NHL goalie, he's talented but he's inconsistent AF, which is what makes the difference in the end. Ullmark is a solid goalie who never go too low but I can assure you that if you put DJ Dorion's hockey in front of him, he'd never look as good as he did in Boston. We still need to improve as a team and the way we play. Hopefully it happens now with the coaching/staff changes

Perron vs Tarasenko - Tarasenko brings more offense, but I think Perron can be the better fit. We'll see, but Tarasenko also wasn't here to end the season anyways. I'm hoping guys like Pinto/Norris take on more of the Tarasenko role, while perron can be more of a middle 6 guy elsewhere.

Amadio vs Joseph - 3rd line Goal scoring upgrade with an 18G per 82 over last 3 seasons vs. Joseph's 11. Also exceeded that pace in playoff run, which is a good sign. I like this one tbh, but I get why some do not.

If Perron actually focus on defensive and brings 30+ pts I guess I'll be fine with it. You're right, we didn't absolutely need Tarasenko and that was actually my point when we signed him and everyone was raving.

I think Joseph's speed will be solely missed but if Amadio continues where he left off in Vegas, he's poised for a bottom-6 forward and brings some finish. He plays slower but smart overall, decent bottom-6 forward

Overall, I think it's pretty lateral, brings some new strengths, lost different strengths

Gregor vs Kelly - Wash. I liked Kelly, but he was a replaceable 4th liner looking for more money apparently. I do like that the guy they brought in is heralded for his speed.

Jensen vs Chychrun - Better fit and position imo. Chychrun stunk last year too, so if it's last year we're basing it on, we didn't really lose an effective player.

Kleven vs Brannstrom - 3rd pairing needs size imo, especially with the top 4 not being overly imposing. Better fit and much higher potential. Advanced stats or not, Brannstrom is a spare part imo, but mostly not worth his over the top qualifying offer and business had to be done.

Gregor only played 63 games out of San Jose (who were the worst team in the league by a good margin) so he might still be progressing. Kelly was tougher and more physical but Gregor brings great speed and I could see becoming a good defensive forward with more NHL experience. In the end not a big deal here

Jensen being a natural RHD is a good thing. Not sure what was wrong with Chychrun last season but despite the pts production, something was off with him. Hopefully Jensen fits well with Chabot and allow him to be at his best. And hopefully, last year's decline in Jensen's game was just a bump and not a trend... I mean enough to finish his contract decently.

It's true that Brannstrom QO put the team in a really bad position in that file, couldn't afford to give him that much money with the role they had to give him and he would rather start over somewhere else than took a major pay cut. This is fine as Kleven needed to graduate at some point. Just wish we had Brannstrom instead of Hamonic; a Kleven-Brannstrom pairing would be much better than Kleven-JBD and miles better than Kleven-Hamonic

And you said it yourself. I agree, I don't expect what I consider slight player personnel upgrades to turn the tide. It will be the massive goaltending upgrade, coaching (potentially, tbd), and the big guns improving/being healthy, or the ship is going nowhere. I'm confident that can happen and now that Andlauer/SS have had a full year, they will be fully supported on and off the ice. I'm also glad they didn't just mostly sit on their hands and run it back with mostly the same roster. A lot here seemed resigned to Korpisalo having to be the #1, but I railed hard that it had to be priority 1 this offseason to replace him, and I'm glad SS agreed.

Hopefully Forsberg finds his game back too, he had a rough stretch of injuries. In the end, it all lies down on Stutzle and Sanderson becoming Elite players (I mean, even more). Chabot and Norris health is major too, if those 2 guys can stay healthy and be at the top of their games, we could actually be a very good team.

The future/present is

Stutzle/Tkachuk/Batherson/Norris/Pinto/Greig
Sanderson/Chabot/Zub/Kleven/Yakemchuk

The success lies on their shoulders and the overall health/coaching/goaltending of course.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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A Leafs fan who provides good insight said that Gregor was fast but not a point producer, but would either pass the puck or put in a safe area, was good on the PK, so just as good as Joseph but much cheaper IMO.

Joseph has much better production and PK metrics. 0.38 PPG vs 0.26 PPG which is 10 more pts per 82 games : 31 vs 21). Joseph is more a 3rd liner while Gregor is a 4th liner. If you have him in your Top-9, your team sucks. And if I am not mistaken, he has PKed only last year with the Leafs so he is only starting in that facet of the game

It's more Amadio who replaces Joseph while Gregor replaces Kelly

We improved quite a bit in the second half of last year (I know, I know, no pressure) and it was done on solid team play stemming from a more detail oriented coach. I think Green will bring more of the same. I think could that add up to several extra points.

I think it is totally reasonable to expect Sanderson, Stützle and Greig to improve on last season given their age and experience. Especially Stü given how he played the entire season banged up. Having a full season of Pinto, who I would say is still developing, would also be part of internal improvement. Having Norris healthy and playing up to his potential would be a huge bonus but my expectations are tempered on that front. Even still I think internal improvement could give us 6-10 points of improvement.

I feel like the players in/players out ledger is pretty much a wash. The only exception could be if Jensen develops chemistry with either Chabot or Sanderson. That could be a huge development, given that everyone seems to play well with Zub. Having two legit top 4 pairings would be so important. Given what we have on the bottom pairing it might prove essential. But I don't see much of a bump from the incoming skaters.

Ullmark is, without a doubt, a huge upgrade on Korpi5alo. Added bonus is the effect it could also have on Forsberg. Ullmark and Forsberg were a successful tandem in the SHL. Here's hoping that an extra year removed from double knee injuries and a comfort level with Ullmark leads to a small bounce back for Forsberg. All things being equal I see goaltending giving us 5-10 point bump.

I have doubts about the age of Perron, Giroux and Jensen. I also feel like we'll have a very suspect bottom D pairing to start the year. BUt I'm surprisingly bullish on the Sens chances this year. I see between 92-102 points for Ottawa this year.

Bang on


You claim to understand roster construction then spend 5 paragraphs contradicting this ability.

I am not attacking Staios and co by the way, It's way way too early to evaluate them.

So unless you can DEMONSTRATE your claim, your statement is nothing but a blind statement. Nothing in my post contradicts what you are claiming.

But if you want to think that I don't "understand", I can't stop you. So you think that Amadio/Gregor are better "fits" than Joseph/Kelly while I think the team improvement has to come from goaltending, coaching, overall health and progression from younger players. It's ok to have different views, you don't have to be so annoyed and call me out like that. I understand things "differently" I guess lol
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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That is hyperbole. Korpisalo is a NHL goalie, he's talented but he's inconsistent AF, which is what makes the difference in the end. Ullmark is a solid goalie who never go too low but I can assure you that if you put DJ Dorion's hockey in front of him, he'd never look as good as he did in Boston. We still need to improve as a team and the way we play. Hopefully it happens now with the coaching/staff changes
Quite obviously hyperbole, yes. Emphasizing the point is all. The team needs to be better, but there is a big difference between these 2 regardless of what team they are behind. One is a starter in the league and has proven that, including a Vezina and one is clearly a backup and a wildly inconsistent one at that.

Korpisalo doesn't have a good career statistically, so I'm not sure what the argument is for him. His numbers have been mostly bad and wildly inconsistent from year to year. He's basically had 3 maybe 4 positive contributor seasons out of 9 (1 of which dates way back to his rookie season and another a UFA outlier payday season) while whoever his tandem partner(s) were vastly outperforming him statistically behind the same team most of those seasons. Korpisalo is another in a long line of goalies that is good enough to be in the league but has no business being anywhere near a starters load or relied on to lead a team. He's had his chances. Glad we moved on and that SS agreed it was priority #1 to bring in a legit #1 option.

Ullmark may have played for a better team in Boston, but he's never had a bad season statistically there or in Buffalo.

Dorion and Company bought in on the outlier season that was directly preceded by 2 very poor seasons. The hip surgeries were being peddled as to the hope of why. I think we've done this drill enough to know he simply cashed in on a UFA season like many others and now that his contract has been dealt and lessened, he can go back to settling in to a role that might suit him properly. Happens all the time.
 
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bicboi64

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Ullmarks' worst season in the league (in Buffalo) would still be enough for us to make the playoffs.

A .905 save percentage with a 3.11 GAA is still better than what Korpse had for us last year.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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If Perron actually focus on defensive and brings 30+ pts I guess I'll be fine with it. You're right, we didn't absolutely need Tarasenko and that was actually my point when we signed him and everyone was raving.

I think Joseph's speed will be solely missed but if Amadio continues where he left off in Vegas, he's poised for a bottom-6 forward and brings some finish. He plays slower but smart overall, decent bottom-6 forward

Overall, I think it's pretty lateral, brings some new strengths, lost different strengths
Lol, I missed that you split quoted me, thought it was only the first part about the tenders.

That's fair. I think this one will remain to be seen a bit to see what Perron has left in the tank, but I do feel like I'm more on the side of what they did than being worried about losing Joseph. I think he showed some nice flashes, won't argue that, and I do like his speed, but imo he's still firmly a bottom 6 guy that is not really moving the needle for me personally. Would I have been so aggressive to move Joseph? Probably not, but I do like the Amadio signing.
Gregor only played 63 games out of San Jose (who were the worst team in the league by a good margin) so he might still be progressing. Kelly was tougher and more physical but Gregor brings great speed and I could see becoming a good defensive forward with more NHL experience. In the end not a big deal here
Agree it's not a big deal and that's about how I see it. I was pumping Kelly's tires last year, but I still think he's got his limits that Gregor should be able to meet. It seems like Kelly would still be here but wanted a raise, and business is business.
Jensen being a natural RHD is a good thing. Not sure what was wrong with Chychrun last season but despite the pts production, something was off with him. Hopefully Jensen fits well with Chabot and allow him to be at his best. And hopefully, last year's decline in Jensen's game was just a bump and not a trend... I mean enough to finish his contract decently.
I'm hoping he has 2 years in him to basically hold it down and then pass the torch. I think he can and will be fine, but my viewings are limited. I do know I'm not going to miss last years Chychrun, or the contract uncertainty.
It's true that Brannstrom QO put the team in a really bad position in that file, couldn't afford to give him that much money with the role they had to give him and he would rather start over somewhere else than took a major pay cut. This is fine as Kleven needed to graduate at some point. Just wish we had Brannstrom instead of Hamonic; a Kleven-Brannstrom pairing would be much better than Kleven-JBD and miles better than Kleven-Hamonic
I don't disagree. It was a business decision that ultimately I think was the right one. I also don't love that Hamonic appears to be the #7. I'm cautiously optimistic in JBD, but we'll see.
Hopefully Forsberg finds his game back too, he had a rough stretch of injuries. In the end, it all lies down on Stutzle and Sanderson becoming Elite players (I mean, even more). Chabot and Norris health is major too, if those 2 guys can stay healthy and be at the top of their games, we could actually be a very good team.


The future/present is

Stutzle/Tkachuk/Batherson/Norris/Pinto/Greig
Sanderson/Chabot/Zub/Kleven/Yakemchuk

The success lies on their shoulders and the overall health/coaching/goaltending of course.
Thumbs up from me, no disagreement there. The potential exists, but it has to come together. I think getting a more reliable tender was step 1 to that. Hopefully the rest follows.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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That is hyperbole. Korpisalo is a NHL goalie, he's talented but he's inconsistent AF, which is what makes the difference in the end. Ullmark is a solid goalie who never go too low but I can assure you that if you put DJ Dorion's hockey in front of him, he'd never look as good as he did in Boston. We still need to improve as a team and the way we play. Hopefully it happens now with the coaching/staff changes
Out of 84 goalies that have played 50 or more games over the last 5 seasons, Ullmark has the best sv%, Korpisalo is in a five way tie for 70th. Sure teams in front plays into that but that's a pretty massive gap.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Joseph has much better production and PK metrics. 0.38 PPG vs 0.26 PPG which is 10 more pts per 82 games : 31 vs 21). Joseph is more a 3rd liner while Gregor is a 4th liner. If you have him in your Top-9, your team sucks. And if I am not mistaken, he has PKed only last year with the Leafs so he is only starting in that facet of the game

It's more Amadio who replaces Joseph while Gregor replaces Kelly



Bang on




I am not attacking Staios and co by the way, It's way way too early to evaluate them.

So unless you can DEMONSTRATE your claim, your statement is nothing but a blind statement. Nothing in my post contradicts what you are claiming.

But if you want to think that I don't "understand", I can't stop you. So you think that Amadio/Gregor are better "fits" than Joseph/Kelly while I think the team improvement has to come from goaltending, coaching, overall health and progression from younger players. It's ok to have different views, you don't have to be so annoyed and call me out like that. I understand things "differently" I guess lol
I think it’s more like Cousins replaces Kelly.
 
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Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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I think it’s more like Cousins replaces Kelly.

And Gregor replaces Kastelic? Or just group them together, in the end they're 4th liners\

Quite obviously hyperbole, yes. Emphasizing the point is all. The team needs to be better, but there is a big difference between these 2 regardless of what team they are behind. One is a starter in the league and has proven that, including a Vezina and one is clearly a backup and a wildly inconsistent one at that.

Korpisalo doesn't have a good career statistically, so I'm not sure what the argument is for him. His numbers have been mostly bad and wildly inconsistent from year to year. He's basically had 3 maybe 4 positive contributor seasons out of 9 (1 of which dates way back to his rookie season and another a UFA outlier payday season) while whoever his tandem partner(s) were vastly outperforming him statistically behind the same team most of those seasons. Korpisalo is another in a long line of goalies that is good enough to be in the league but has no business being anywhere near a starters load or relied on to lead a team. He's had his chances. Glad we moved on and that SS agreed it was priority #1 to bring in a legit #1 option.

Ullmark may have played for a better team in Boston, but he's never had a bad season statistically there or in Buffalo.

Dorion and Company bought in on the outlier season that was directly preceded by 2 very poor seasons. The hip surgeries were being peddled as to the hope of why. I think we've done this drill enough to know he simply cashed in on a UFA season like many others and now that his contract has been dealt and lessened, he can go back to settling in to a role that might suit him properly. Happens all the time.

Don't worry, I know who Ullmark is, I was high on him before most people. This is from 2021 for example :

"I find Ullmark pretty damn good. He'll be a N.1 now and think he'll be regarded as a top goalie"

"There's other problems in the Bruins lineup but Ullmark and Swayman are going to be among the best goalie duos this season"

"...wish we didn't sign Forsberg but Ullmark instead"

"there's always good goalies available all over the place. Linus Ullmark is the guy I'd sign"

My point is that we need to be much better in front of our goalies, regardless of who they are. And I think we started to do that under Jacques. I think we're finally going to get away from the Dorion stink. But we can't leave Ullmark out to dry all season and expect him to re-sign here.

As for Korpi, remember how upset we were on this board when it happened? In my first comment I said :

"But instead, Dorion goes out and burn a big part of the available cap space on a below average goalie"

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Korpse has a good season in Boston. This team has been so well managed and coached for so long, it's in their culture.

I'll try to answer your other post tomorrow
 
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