Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[SantosHalper]

Do we even need a director of pro scouting? Like i said week or so ago, players like Copp and Chiarot been in the league for years, how much scouting they need? And i think couple of those scouts, scout AHL, searching for "Snively/Lagesson"-types. I don't think GM has that much time to watch AHL the deeply. Some pro scouts probably dig in to the players on small minutes and 1 or 2 goes to watch players what GM wants them to watch.

But if there is a unofficial director of pro scouting, i think it could be Horcoff. Draper is involved heavily with amateur scouting and there is a lot of leagues and tournaments to watch, lots of travelling in that job. Aaron Kahn is the numbers guy, new "JBB", i don't think he's does scouting at all.

Horcoff is GR's GM, he acquires players to that team, he of all people needs pro scouting reports.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Didn't KH sell off assets specifically for future draft picks in both 2017 and 2018 to aquire future rebuilding capital?

2019 as well.

Guy left the job after 3 deadlines in a row where he was a seller and brought in something like 10 draft picks mostly in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. He also stopped signing veterans to ridiculous contracts, with the last being a very Justin Holl like deal to Trevor Daley the summer of 2017.

At the very least, he wasn't just giving away draft picks with competent NHL dmen.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Do we even need a director of pro scouting? Like i said week or so ago, players like Copp and Chiarot been in the league for years, how much scouting they need? And i think couple of those scouts, scout AHL, searching for "Snively/Lagesson"-types. I don't think GM has that much time to watch AHL the deeply. Some pro scouts probably dig in to the players on small minutes and 1 or 2 goes to watch players what GM wants them to watch.

But if there is a unofficial director of pro scouting, i think it could be Horcoff. Draper is involved heavily with amateur scouting and there is a lot of leagues and tournaments to watch, lots of travelling in that job. Aaron Kahn is the numbers guy, new "JBB", i don't think he's does scouting at all.

Horcoff is GR's GM, he acquires players to that team, he of all people needs pro scouting reports.

Hell yes we do.

We need someone to find the undervalued/underappreciated guys toiling away on a 3rd or 4th line that have hidden potential like Mason Marchment, Jonathan Marchesseault, Sam Bennett, Carter Verhaeghe, Ryan Graves types. Those guys were traded for peanuts before turning into impact players. We need that kind of luck, and good pro scouting will help with that.

Then RFAs like Broberg and Holloway that are becoming impact players as cheap signings that cost St. Louis a 2nd and a 3rd. A good head pro-scout will find you these guys.

I am genuinely worried we have too many "glory days" hires in Detroit to see real progress. I want to see better hires than "won a cup in Detroit 25 years ago." as their resume.

 

[Shaman464]

Do we even need a director of pro scouting? Like i said week or so ago, players like Copp and Chiarot been in the league for years, how much scouting they need? And i think couple of those scouts, scout AHL, searching for "Snively/Lagesson"-types. I don't think GM has that much time to watch AHL the deeply. Some pro scouts probably dig in to the players on small minutes and 1 or 2 goes to watch players what GM wants them to watch.

But if there is a unofficial director of pro scouting, i think it could be Horcoff. Draper is involved heavily with amateur scouting and there is a lot of leagues and tournaments to watch, lots of travelling in that job. Aaron Kahn is the numbers guy, new "JBB", i don't think he's does scouting at all.

Horcoff is GR's GM, he acquires players to that team, he of all people needs pro scouting reports.

You definitely do, especially for grandpas like Chiarot and Copp. Pro scouts exist to understand if older players still have something left in the tank or if they're about to have the rug pulled out from under them. They also tend to understand when a player like Compher is overperforming vs he finally broke out. This information helps to determine contract lengths, amounts or even if a player should be contacted at all. Without this you end up overpaying players like Holl who were cooked long before they came to Detroit.

 

[Frk It]

My initial question was who is heading up NA pro scouting? Doesn't it seem weird they didn't fill Howe's role? From your replies I get that you don't know, which is totally understandable.

I wouldn't expect any of the beat writers to ask about this other than maybe Max.

Your original question was a fair question, I just think it would be stupid for them to try to spread Draper that thin. Like very stupid.

My thought is they have someone in that role they just didn’t make a public announcement of it or update the team site.

I would also like to know who it is because we have not done the best evaluations at the pro level in some cases. I wonder if it is Chris Yzerman in the role and Steve didn’t want the publicity around it. My guess would be him or Fischer.

Does anyone actually know what Lidstrom does in his role?

 

[SantosHalper]

Hell yes we do.

We need someone to find the undervalued/underappreciated guys toiling away on a 3rd or 4th line that have hidden potential like Mason Marchment, Jonathan Marchesseault, Sam Bennett, Carter Verhaeghe, Ryan Graves types. Those guys were traded for peanuts before turning into impact players. We need that kind of luck, and good pro scouting will help with that.

Then RFAs like Broberg and Holloway that are becoming impact players as cheap signings that cost St. Louis a 2nd and a 3rd. A good head pro-scout will find you these guys.

I am genuinely worried we have too many "glory days" hires in Detroit to see real progress. I want to see better hires than "won a cup in Detroit 25 years ago." as their resume.

Are scouts that stupid that they can't operate without a director? Like i said i believe that some scouts scout AHL, some are looking these small minute players and someone goes to watch whom GM wants. Gustav Forsling and Niko Mikkola are better examples of a hidden talents, i wouldn't call the names you mentioned hidden talents. Who ever it was who recommended Forsling to Zito definitely earned his paycheck. And Florida actually doesn't have a director of pro scouting either.

But do they need a director? We need and want good pro scouts but honestly, director of pro scouting sounds like a job where a person shows scouting reports to GM. More ceremonial title than an actual job. In amateur scouting there is a lot more ground to cover, it's more understandable there to have a director than in pro scouting where there is just 31 teams to watch. I don't see a need for middle man between pro scouts and GM.

You definitely do, especially for grandpas like Chiarot and Copp. Pro scouts exist to understand if older players still have something left in the tank or if they're about to have the rug pulled out from under them. They also tend to understand when a player like Compher is overperforming vs he finally broke out. This information helps to determine contract lengths, amounts or even if a player should be contacted at all. Without this you end up overpaying players like Holl who were cooked long before they came to Detroit.

And a GM who played in total 1710 games in NHL doesn't understand?

Players like Copp, Chiarot, Compher, Holl are plugs and there is also a floor in salary cap. Despite how much people think they suck, they are still in the league and getting paid millions. They are doing something right, there are many top picks who never made it as far as those guys have made. Wings wouldn't be the only team who would be paying them but thats how the UFA markets work, highest bidder gets the player.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Are scouts that stupid that they can't operate without a director? Like i said i believe that some scouts scout AHL, some are looking these small minute players and someone goes to watch whom GM wants. Gustav Forsling and Niko Mikkola are better examples of a hidden talents, i wouldn't call the names you mentioned hidden talents. Who ever it was who recommended Forsling to Zito definitely earned his paycheck. And Florida actually doesn't have a director of pro scouting either.

But do they need a director? We need and want good pro scouts but honestly, director of pro scouting sounds like a job where a person shows scouting reports to GM. More ceremonial title than an actual job. In amateur scouting there is a lot more ground to cover, it's more understandable there to have a director than in pro scouting where there is just 31 teams to watch. I don't see a need for middle man between pro scouts and GM.

And a GM who played in total 1710 games in NHL doesn't understand?

Players like Copp, Chiarot, Compher, Holl are plugs and there is also a floor in salary cap. Despite how much people think they suck, they are still in the league and getting paid millions. They are doing something right, there are many top picks who never made it as far as those guys have made. Wings wouldn't be the only team who would be paying them but thats how the UFA markets work, highest bidder gets the player.

You need appropriate organizational leadership to keep the ship going in the right direction. You're not going to have a ground level scout run up the hot new find to the GM's desk directly. There are layers and a chain of command to create effective communication in any organization.

 

[Gniwder]

Hell yes we do.

We need someone to find the undervalued/underappreciated guys toiling away on a 3rd or 4th line that have hidden potential like Mason Marchment, Jonathan Marchesseault, Sam Bennett, Carter Verhaeghe, Ryan Graves types. Those guys were traded for peanuts before turning into impact players. We need that kind of luck, and good pro scouting will help with that.

Then RFAs like Broberg and Holloway that are becoming impact players as cheap signings that cost St. Louis a 2nd and a 3rd. A good head pro-scout will find you these guys.

I am genuinely worried we have too many "glory days" hires in Detroit to see real progress. I want to see better hires than "won a cup in Detroit 25 years ago." as their resume.

Hey, where were you when I was bitching about the Leddy trade and said Graves would have been a better trade for a 2nd round pick? We wouldn't be watching Chiarot chase the puck every game right now.

Along the lines of your point though, what I'd like to see is a trade for a bottom 6 player with speed that has top 6 potential. Burakovsky was traded for a 2nd and 3rd, Chandler Stephenson was traded for just a 5th. This team needs speed.... gotta fleece a capped out team or steal them with offer sheets like you said.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

he could start by playing tank on his natural side. can't wait for todd's first practice lines to drop

It's baffling that Lalonde wouldn't move him there when he was clearly struggling.

 

[Shaman464]

Are scouts that stupid that they can't operate without a director? Like i said i believe that some scouts scout AHL, some are looking these small minute players and someone goes to watch whom GM wants. Gustav Forsling and Niko Mikkola are better examples of a hidden talents, i wouldn't call the names you mentioned hidden talents. Who ever it was who recommended Forsling to Zito definitely earned his paycheck. And Florida actually doesn't have a director of pro scouting either.

But do they need a director? We need and want good pro scouts but honestly, director of pro scouting sounds like a job where a person shows scouting reports to GM. More ceremonial title than an actual job. In amateur scouting there is a lot more ground to cover, it's more understandable there to have a director than in pro scouting where there is just 31 teams to watch. I don't see a need for middle man between pro scouts and GM.

And a GM who played in total 1710 games in NHL doesn't understand?

Players like Copp, Chiarot, Compher, Holl are plugs and there is also a floor in salary cap. Despite how much people think they suck, they are still in the league and getting paid millions. They are doing something right, there are many top picks who never made it as far as those guys have made. Wings wouldn't be the only team who would be paying them but thats how the UFA markets work, highest bidder gets the player.

Looking at how bad the pro scouting is he clearly doesn’t understand. And since almost none of the players who played more games have ever been successful NHL pro scouts or executives I’m going to bet there is no correlation between games played and ability to assess players for a pro hockey team.

 

[SantosHalper]

You need appropriate organizational leadership to keep the ship going in the right direction. You're not going to have a ground level scout run up the hot new find to the GM's desk directly. There are layers and a chain of command to create effective communication in any organization.

I see you work for the goverment , from my own experience more layers mean that the information changes every time it changes hands. You can try it yourself, get a group of people, invent a story and tell it to the person #1 and watch him/her to tell the story forward and you'll see how much it's changes.

Wings have 6 pro scouts, theres no "ground level scouts". Scouts watch the games and send reports to GM and i would imagine that they work like amateur scouts, everyone has it's own region. And if we use my theory.

Tommy Boustedt - european pro scout, his title is quite clear. SHL, Liiga, Champions Hockey League, Euro Hockey Tournament, Men's world championships.

Kyle MacKinnon - former minor league player from California, he sounds like he could be NHL or AHL western conference scout.

Brian Flynn - from Massachusetts he could be AHL eastern conference scout.

Boyd Gordon - from Saskatoon, so maybe western conference scout in NHL or AHL.

Chris Yzerman - I presume from Ontario and i think he's scouting NHL. Probably eastern conference.

Kirk Maltby - He still lives in Michigan, so i think he's the scout who goes to watch whom ever GM tells him to watch.

So Kyle MacKinnon for example has to watch 17 teams if he's AHL western scout or 16 teams if he's NHL western scout, and about 22-23 player per team. How many of those players actually could end up in the report? 1-2 or 3? AHL reports probably ends up on Horcoff's table. Director of pro scouting would be just a paper pusher here and he would decide which reports end up in Yzerman's table but if we cut the useless middle man, Yzerman sees all the reports.

 

[rangersblues]

Hell yes we do.

We need someone to find the undervalued/underappreciated guys toiling away on a 3rd or 4th line that have hidden potential like Mason Marchment, Jonathan Marchesseault, Sam Bennett, Carter Verhaeghe, Ryan Graves types. Those guys were traded for peanuts before turning into impact players. We need that kind of luck, and good pro scouting will help with that.

Then RFAs like Broberg and Holloway that are becoming impact players as cheap signings that cost St. Louis a 2nd and a 3rd. A good head pro-scout will find you these guys.

I am genuinely worried we have too many "glory days" hires in Detroit to see real progress. I want to see better hires than "won a cup in Detroit 25 years ago." as their resume.

It's not really "all luck" finding players before they become impact players if you scout them properly starting in junior. These guys are all character. Hard nosed with a solid work ethic. It's not something that just suddenly happens.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

We got the second best player in both the 19 and 20 drafts, and I think the future will show edvinsson to be a top 3 player from 21. Which just shows how hard it is to build a contender. I think if we stay the course and keep letting our prospects develop we will be better than people expect, but without that 1c when we are contending it’s still going to be really hard.

 

[raymond23]

Yzerman really does not get enough credit for the Seider pick

 

[ShanahanMan]

Sorry, it's now abundantly clear that him and his front office staff have absolutely no idea what they're doing. I really believe now Verbeek was the brains in TB.

They need to fire and replace all of management. This is ridiculous.

 

[Frk It]

Sorry, it's now abundantly clear that him and his front office staff have absolutely no idea what they're doing. I really believe now Verbeek was the brains in TB.

They need to fire and replace all of management. This is ridiculous.

I am a combination of frustrated/disappoitned/apathetic towards this season and the amount of sitting on hands I feel Yzerman has done with regards to attempting to upgrade this roster.

But you are wildly overreacting to all of this.

 

[minimal]

Yzerman is on the hot seat this offseason.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yzerman is on the hot seat this offseason.

He really, really isn't.

 

[redwingsfannn9191]

Ya yzerman is far from being in danger of getting fired. Hes got a ton of prospects who have yet to show up and see what's there

Where I think he f***ed up or slowed down the rebuild is by trying to win just a tad earlier and not unintentionally tanking. A few spots earlier and danielson could have been a Leonard,michkov etc

More so I dont think we ever weaponized our cap space I was pushing hard for a Marleau from Toronto which turned into seth Jarvis and Sean Monahan which looks like a top 15 pick

We ended up with Staal for a 2nd and giving away a 2nd to move walman. Yzerman never really helped the rebuild move along that way

 

[The Flying Octopus]

Dammmm

Mrazek took Mazurs number

What are we doing Yzerman ?!?

 

[SirloinUB]

Yzerman has purposefully committed to rebuilding through the draft. We all knew this on day 1 of the rebuild and every singe one of us supported it. In reality that is a long process when you’re drafting 18 year olds.

To that point Yzerman’s 3rd 1st round pick is up to 84 career games and still early in his development path. Edvinsson’s athletic prime years are 2-9 years away and he is intended to be a foundational piece of this rebuild.

Hedman won his first of two (and counting) cups after being in the league for 11 years. That’s 6 more years for Moritz Seider. That’s 9 more years for Simon Edvinsson.

A long term move would have been nice but now is not the time to get impatient with the process.

 

[nbwingsfan]

WAY too conservative. Has and is about to waste pretty valuable assets (2nd/3rd round picks) on guys who aren’t going to get a chance with this team or completely sucked

Horrible UFA signing across the board.

Weird obsession with low ceiling/high floor players and prospects.

 

[CaptainZetterberg40]

What I am concerned about is how we're going to address and execute building this team up during the remainder of Larkin's very short window. Father time always wins, and with the mileage that Larkin has so far, I'm concerned that our best player will only have another 3-4 years left. Larkin will be entering his age 29 season in 2025-26. Could he be one of those that are still productive between ages 34-37? Sure, but I wouldn't count on it. So if he's our best center in the next 4 years, and Danielson + Kasper can't produce at high end 1C & 2C rates, then we're going to be in a very tough place moving forward.

Now that can be mitigated by having line driving wingers, but ideally you want centers to be the foundation of a strong team. We have been doing decent with introducing youth to our team over the past few years, but this team will live and die on the quality of our prospects, as we honestly CAN'T rely on landing high end free agents.

Yzerman tried his hand at middling free agents turning into high end producers in a different environment and that didn't work. Middling players produce middling results more often than not. I see a league that continues to have its rich teams get richer just like Dallas landing Rantanen. So how are we going to navigate around that? The Rantanen type of situations only come once in a blue moon. Marner will re-sign with the Leafs imo. So what do we do then?

Another thing I haven't even touched on is how we rid ourselves of the dead weight from this team. With the increase in cap, I can live with a 4th line of Compher-Copp-Rasmussen as an example, but we need to flesh out the top three lines with higher end players.

Do we try and pry top prospects from other teams (VERY HARD to do). Do we offer sheet? Do we start trading 1sts and 2nds?

One thing I do see for our team is that we're going to be a type of team that HAS to overpay for what we need and Yzerman needs to be okay with that in the next few years.

Going back to how I started, there's only two realities where we're a contender during the remainder of Larkin's prime, where we get aggressive and really overpay for what we need, or continue to be patient and have Raymond, Seider & Edvinsson be leaders of our next window by the time they're ages 26-30. And if the latter half is the case, then I don't think that Yzerman will be the GM of the team when that time comes as that process will take another 4-7 years and by that time we're talking about Yzerman being GM of a team that hasn't gone far in a decade and I don't know any current GM that is at the helm for 10+ years with no results. Sad thing too is that if I was a betting man, I would say that we'll be contenders in the latter scenario, rather than the former. But I'm also very pessimistic by nature.

What really scares me is posing the question of, what if Raymond, Seider, Edvinsson +++ isn’t good enough when compared against the rest of the league.

 

[DanielMarois]

Yzerman has purposefully committed to rebuilding through the draft. We all knew this on day 1 of the rebuild and every singe one of us supported it. In reality that is a long process when you’re drafting 18 year olds.

To that point Yzerman’s 3rd 1st round pick is up to 84 career games and still early in his development path. Edvinsson’s athletic prime years are 2-9 years away and he is intended to be a foundational piece of this rebuild.

Hedman won his first of two (and counting) cups after being in the league for 11 years. That’s 6 more years for Moritz Seider. That’s 9 more years for Simon Edvinsson.

A long term move would have been nice but now is not the time to get impatient with the process.

Hedman was also in the semi-final in his second year and in the finals in his sixth year. And Yzerman also had a Stamkos waiting for him when he arrived. Patience is fine, but the issue is your #1 c is heading into his 30's and none of your prospects look like they will be major point producers.

 

[KJoe88]

Dammmm

Mrazek took Mazurs number

What are we doing Yzerman ?!?

Who really cares lol