Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[SantosHalper]

Do we even need a director of pro scouting? Like i said week or so ago, players like Copp and Chiarot been in the league for years, how much scouting they need? And i think couple of those scouts, scout AHL, searching for "Snively/Lagesson"-types. I don't think GM has that much time to watch AHL the deeply. Some pro scouts probably dig in to the players on small minutes and 1 or 2 goes to watch players what GM wants them to watch.

But if there is a unofficial director of pro scouting, i think it could be Horcoff. Draper is involved heavily with amateur scouting and there is a lot of leagues and tournaments to watch, lots of travelling in that job. Aaron Kahn is the numbers guy, new "JBB", i don't think he's does scouting at all.

Horcoff is GR's GM, he acquires players to that team, he of all people needs pro scouting reports.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Didn't KH sell off assets specifically for future draft picks in both 2017 and 2018 to aquire future rebuilding capital?

2019 as well.

Guy left the job after 3 deadlines in a row where he was a seller and brought in something like 10 draft picks mostly in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. He also stopped signing veterans to ridiculous contracts, with the last being a very Justin Holl like deal to Trevor Daley the summer of 2017.

At the very least, he wasn't just giving away draft picks with competent NHL dmen.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Do we even need a director of pro scouting? Like i said week or so ago, players like Copp and Chiarot been in the league for years, how much scouting they need? And i think couple of those scouts, scout AHL, searching for "Snively/Lagesson"-types. I don't think GM has that much time to watch AHL the deeply. Some pro scouts probably dig in to the players on small minutes and 1 or 2 goes to watch players what GM wants them to watch.

But if there is a unofficial director of pro scouting, i think it could be Horcoff. Draper is involved heavily with amateur scouting and there is a lot of leagues and tournaments to watch, lots of travelling in that job. Aaron Kahn is the numbers guy, new "JBB", i don't think he's does scouting at all.

Horcoff is GR's GM, he acquires players to that team, he of all people needs pro scouting reports.

Hell yes we do.

We need someone to find the undervalued/underappreciated guys toiling away on a 3rd or 4th line that have hidden potential like Mason Marchment, Jonathan Marchesseault, Sam Bennett, Carter Verhaeghe, Ryan Graves types. Those guys were traded for peanuts before turning into impact players. We need that kind of luck, and good pro scouting will help with that.

Then RFAs like Broberg and Holloway that are becoming impact players as cheap signings that cost St. Louis a 2nd and a 3rd. A good head pro-scout will find you these guys.

I am genuinely worried we have too many "glory days" hires in Detroit to see real progress. I want to see better hires than "won a cup in Detroit 25 years ago." as their resume.

 

[Shaman464]

Do we even need a director of pro scouting? Like i said week or so ago, players like Copp and Chiarot been in the league for years, how much scouting they need? And i think couple of those scouts, scout AHL, searching for "Snively/Lagesson"-types. I don't think GM has that much time to watch AHL the deeply. Some pro scouts probably dig in to the players on small minutes and 1 or 2 goes to watch players what GM wants them to watch.

But if there is a unofficial director of pro scouting, i think it could be Horcoff. Draper is involved heavily with amateur scouting and there is a lot of leagues and tournaments to watch, lots of travelling in that job. Aaron Kahn is the numbers guy, new "JBB", i don't think he's does scouting at all.

Horcoff is GR's GM, he acquires players to that team, he of all people needs pro scouting reports.

You definitely do, especially for grandpas like Chiarot and Copp. Pro scouts exist to understand if older players still have something left in the tank or if they're about to have the rug pulled out from under them. They also tend to understand when a player like Compher is overperforming vs he finally broke out. This information helps to determine contract lengths, amounts or even if a player should be contacted at all. Without this you end up overpaying players like Holl who were cooked long before they came to Detroit.

 

[Frk It]

My initial question was who is heading up NA pro scouting? Doesn't it seem weird they didn't fill Howe's role? From your replies I get that you don't know, which is totally understandable.

I wouldn't expect any of the beat writers to ask about this other than maybe Max.

Your original question was a fair question, I just think it would be stupid for them to try to spread Draper that thin. Like very stupid.

My thought is they have someone in that role they just didn’t make a public announcement of it or update the team site.

I would also like to know who it is because we have not done the best evaluations at the pro level in some cases. I wonder if it is Chris Yzerman in the role and Steve didn’t want the publicity around it. My guess would be him or Fischer.

Does anyone actually know what Lidstrom does in his role?

 

[SantosHalper]

Hell yes we do.

We need someone to find the undervalued/underappreciated guys toiling away on a 3rd or 4th line that have hidden potential like Mason Marchment, Jonathan Marchesseault, Sam Bennett, Carter Verhaeghe, Ryan Graves types. Those guys were traded for peanuts before turning into impact players. We need that kind of luck, and good pro scouting will help with that.

Then RFAs like Broberg and Holloway that are becoming impact players as cheap signings that cost St. Louis a 2nd and a 3rd. A good head pro-scout will find you these guys.

I am genuinely worried we have too many "glory days" hires in Detroit to see real progress. I want to see better hires than "won a cup in Detroit 25 years ago." as their resume.

Are scouts that stupid that they can't operate without a director? Like i said i believe that some scouts scout AHL, some are looking these small minute players and someone goes to watch whom GM wants. Gustav Forsling and Niko Mikkola are better examples of a hidden talents, i wouldn't call the names you mentioned hidden talents. Who ever it was who recommended Forsling to Zito definitely earned his paycheck. And Florida actually doesn't have a director of pro scouting either.

But do they need a director? We need and want good pro scouts but honestly, director of pro scouting sounds like a job where a person shows scouting reports to GM. More ceremonial title than an actual job. In amateur scouting there is a lot more ground to cover, it's more understandable there to have a director than in pro scouting where there is just 31 teams to watch. I don't see a need for middle man between pro scouts and GM.

You definitely do, especially for grandpas like Chiarot and Copp. Pro scouts exist to understand if older players still have something left in the tank or if they're about to have the rug pulled out from under them. They also tend to understand when a player like Compher is overperforming vs he finally broke out. This information helps to determine contract lengths, amounts or even if a player should be contacted at all. Without this you end up overpaying players like Holl who were cooked long before they came to Detroit.

And a GM who played in total 1710 games in NHL doesn't understand?

Players like Copp, Chiarot, Compher, Holl are plugs and there is also a floor in salary cap. Despite how much people think they suck, they are still in the league and getting paid millions. They are doing something right, there are many top picks who never made it as far as those guys have made. Wings wouldn't be the only team who would be paying them but thats how the UFA markets work, highest bidder gets the player.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Are scouts that stupid that they can't operate without a director? Like i said i believe that some scouts scout AHL, some are looking these small minute players and someone goes to watch whom GM wants. Gustav Forsling and Niko Mikkola are better examples of a hidden talents, i wouldn't call the names you mentioned hidden talents. Who ever it was who recommended Forsling to Zito definitely earned his paycheck. And Florida actually doesn't have a director of pro scouting either.

But do they need a director? We need and want good pro scouts but honestly, director of pro scouting sounds like a job where a person shows scouting reports to GM. More ceremonial title than an actual job. In amateur scouting there is a lot more ground to cover, it's more understandable there to have a director than in pro scouting where there is just 31 teams to watch. I don't see a need for middle man between pro scouts and GM.

And a GM who played in total 1710 games in NHL doesn't understand?

Players like Copp, Chiarot, Compher, Holl are plugs and there is also a floor in salary cap. Despite how much people think they suck, they are still in the league and getting paid millions. They are doing something right, there are many top picks who never made it as far as those guys have made. Wings wouldn't be the only team who would be paying them but thats how the UFA markets work, highest bidder gets the player.

You need appropriate organizational leadership to keep the ship going in the right direction. You're not going to have a ground level scout run up the hot new find to the GM's desk directly. There are layers and a chain of command to create effective communication in any organization.

 

[Gniwder]

Hell yes we do.

We need someone to find the undervalued/underappreciated guys toiling away on a 3rd or 4th line that have hidden potential like Mason Marchment, Jonathan Marchesseault, Sam Bennett, Carter Verhaeghe, Ryan Graves types. Those guys were traded for peanuts before turning into impact players. We need that kind of luck, and good pro scouting will help with that.

Then RFAs like Broberg and Holloway that are becoming impact players as cheap signings that cost St. Louis a 2nd and a 3rd. A good head pro-scout will find you these guys.

I am genuinely worried we have too many "glory days" hires in Detroit to see real progress. I want to see better hires than "won a cup in Detroit 25 years ago." as their resume.

Hey, where were you when I was bitching about the Leddy trade and said Graves would have been a better trade for a 2nd round pick? We wouldn't be watching Chiarot chase the puck every game right now.

Along the lines of your point though, what I'd like to see is a trade for a bottom 6 player with speed that has top 6 potential. Burakovsky was traded for a 2nd and 3rd, Chandler Stephenson was traded for just a 5th. This team needs speed.... gotta fleece a capped out team or steal them with offer sheets like you said.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

he could start by playing tank on his natural side. can't wait for todd's first practice lines to drop

It's baffling that Lalonde wouldn't move him there when he was clearly struggling.

 

[Shaman464]

Are scouts that stupid that they can't operate without a director? Like i said i believe that some scouts scout AHL, some are looking these small minute players and someone goes to watch whom GM wants. Gustav Forsling and Niko Mikkola are better examples of a hidden talents, i wouldn't call the names you mentioned hidden talents. Who ever it was who recommended Forsling to Zito definitely earned his paycheck. And Florida actually doesn't have a director of pro scouting either.

But do they need a director? We need and want good pro scouts but honestly, director of pro scouting sounds like a job where a person shows scouting reports to GM. More ceremonial title than an actual job. In amateur scouting there is a lot more ground to cover, it's more understandable there to have a director than in pro scouting where there is just 31 teams to watch. I don't see a need for middle man between pro scouts and GM.

And a GM who played in total 1710 games in NHL doesn't understand?

Players like Copp, Chiarot, Compher, Holl are plugs and there is also a floor in salary cap. Despite how much people think they suck, they are still in the league and getting paid millions. They are doing something right, there are many top picks who never made it as far as those guys have made. Wings wouldn't be the only team who would be paying them but thats how the UFA markets work, highest bidder gets the player.

Looking at how bad the pro scouting is he clearly doesn’t understand. And since almost none of the players who played more games have ever been successful NHL pro scouts or executives I’m going to bet there is no correlation between games played and ability to assess players for a pro hockey team.

 

[SantosHalper]

You need appropriate organizational leadership to keep the ship going in the right direction. You're not going to have a ground level scout run up the hot new find to the GM's desk directly. There are layers and a chain of command to create effective communication in any organization.

I see you work for the goverment , from my own experience more layers mean that the information changes every time it changes hands. You can try it yourself, get a group of people, invent a story and tell it to the person #1 and watch him/her to tell the story forward and you'll see how much it's changes.

Wings have 6 pro scouts, theres no "ground level scouts". Scouts watch the games and send reports to GM and i would imagine that they work like amateur scouts, everyone has it's own region. And if we use my theory.

Tommy Boustedt - european pro scout, his title is quite clear. SHL, Liiga, Champions Hockey League, Euro Hockey Tournament, Men's world championships.

Kyle MacKinnon - former minor league player from California, he sounds like he could be NHL or AHL western conference scout.

Brian Flynn - from Massachusetts he could be AHL eastern conference scout.

Boyd Gordon - from Saskatoon, so maybe western conference scout in NHL or AHL.

Chris Yzerman - I presume from Ontario and i think he's scouting NHL. Probably eastern conference.

Kirk Maltby - He still lives in Michigan, so i think he's the scout who goes to watch whom ever GM tells him to watch.

So Kyle MacKinnon for example has to watch 17 teams if he's AHL western scout or 16 teams if he's NHL western scout, and about 22-23 player per team. How many of those players actually could end up in the report? 1-2 or 3? AHL reports probably ends up on Horcoff's table. Director of pro scouting would be just a paper pusher here and he would decide which reports end up in Yzerman's table but if we cut the useless middle man, Yzerman sees all the reports.

 

[rangersblues]

Hell yes we do.

We need someone to find the undervalued/underappreciated guys toiling away on a 3rd or 4th line that have hidden potential like Mason Marchment, Jonathan Marchesseault, Sam Bennett, Carter Verhaeghe, Ryan Graves types. Those guys were traded for peanuts before turning into impact players. We need that kind of luck, and good pro scouting will help with that.

Then RFAs like Broberg and Holloway that are becoming impact players as cheap signings that cost St. Louis a 2nd and a 3rd. A good head pro-scout will find you these guys.

I am genuinely worried we have too many "glory days" hires in Detroit to see real progress. I want to see better hires than "won a cup in Detroit 25 years ago." as their resume.

It's not really "all luck" finding players before they become impact players if you scout them properly starting in junior. These guys are all character. Hard nosed with a solid work ethic. It's not something that just suddenly happens.