Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[RabidBadger]

As the team gets better so will his picks of ufa’s

Yeah, I don't think UFA's are lining up to go to any bottom dwelling teams. To expound on your point, I don't think the need for UFAs will be as pressing when the team gets better.

 

[Dotter]

Call me a homer, but I think Yzerman has been playing 3D chess. He GMs like he played hockey, he was always 3 steps ahead of the play. DMAC has been saying the same thing if you listen to him.

Yzerman isn't transparent and keeps everyone on their toes, including the fans. I am fine with that!

- Yman is trying to balance drafting decent positions; 6th, 4th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 15th (MBN), and ice a team that appears to be on the upswing. (look at the jump from 2019 to 2024)

- Trying to inject FA depth to both help not win enough to draft after 15th, but also give Larkin and core a carrot to "try" to make the playoffs. To seem somewhat competitive. Guys will bail if they think Detroit is a sinking ship.

- Helps hold back Sieder, ED and Raymond's production so he can negotiate a slightly better contract.

The proof to my speculation is look at the contract terms. I do think Yzerman probably expected a wee-bit more out of Copp, and Holl was a swing and a miss. While Holl was a failure, Copp is an [overpaid] serviceable 3rd line center who plays responsibly. Kasper will take his job in a season or two.

I like Husso, but you can't predict injuries. Lyon was a brilliant signing.

So I agree that some Yzerman moves have been an undesirable gamble. But not one move hurt the team long term. I would argue it has played out nicely long term; see all the recent core contracts.

I don't expect to make the playoffs this season, but I do think it is going to be an exciting year in the east with Sabres, Ott, Devils, Caps, etc. I don't expect Yzerman to have his team until Cossa or Augustine to graduate and become the top horse. Once one goalie becomes that, then I think you'll see an aggressive 'win now' Yzerman. If both bomb, then who knows... let's be optimistic and hopeful.

 

[schuelma24]

My opinion is that A- he's made a decent amount of questionable moves the last 2 years; B; none of those moves were catastrophic long term mistakes and C- he's set the team up extremely well for the next 3-5 years by locking up Ray/Mo to very reasonable deals and has a lot of cap coming off and a lot of young guys set to come up.

I'm very optimistic.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

Signs way too many redundant, mediocre vets

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Call me a homer, but I think Yzerman has been playing 3D chess. He GMs like he played hockey, he was always 3 steps ahead of the play. DMAC has been saying the same thing if you listen to him.

Yzerman isn't transparent and keeps everyone on their toes, including the fans. I am fine with that!

- Yman is trying to balance drafting decent positions; 6th, 4th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 15th (MBN), and ice a team that appears to be on the upswing. (look at the jump from 2019 to 2024)

- Trying to inject FA depth to both help not win enough to draft after 15th, but also give Larkin and core a carrot to "try" to make the playoffs. To seem somewhat competitive. Guys will bail if they think Detroit is a sinking ship.

- Helps hold back Sieder, ED and Raymond's production so he can negotiate a slightly better contract.

The proof to my speculation is look at the contract terms. I do think Yzerman probably expected a wee-bit more out of Copp, and Holl was a swing and a miss. While Holl was a failure, Copp is an [overpaid] serviceable 3rd line center who plays responsibly. Kasper will take his job in a season or two.

I like Husso, but you can't predict injuries. Lyon was a brilliant signing.

So I agree that some Yzerman moves have been an undesirable gamble. But not one move hurt the team long term. I would argue it has played out nicely long term; see all the recent core contracts.

I don't expect to make the playoffs this season, but I do think it is going to be an exciting year in the east with Sabres, Ott, Devils, Caps, etc. I don't expect Yzerman to have his team until Cossa or Augustine to graduate and become the top horse. Once one goalie becomes that, then I think you'll see an aggressive 'win now' Yzerman. If both bomb, then who knows... let's be optimistic and hopeful.

I agree with some of these.

However... He was not holding back Raymond or Seider. Seider's deployment is because they knew they were going to need him to carry a huge heft defensively, so they didn't give him PP1 as well. He still played a lot on the power play. Raymond wasn't held back... he just was okay and then in the last two months of the year exploded huge.

Yzerman signed the Holl, Maatta, Copp, Compher guys so that they could have actually competitive games instead of getting caved in 6-1, 5-2, etc. while they rolled in Raymond and Seider and Ed and anyone else. It's not "be good enough to not lose, but not draft later than 15th. He's been hoping that they make the playoffs. Those were moves that they were hoping would get them to the playoffs.
The bigger point is that they only want to give long term (6+ years) to guys like Larkin, Raymond, and Seider. Everyone else, they get 4 years at max so there is roster mobility if they happen to land a really good young player.

 

[Dotter]

I agree with some of these.

However... He was not holding back Raymond or Seider. Seider's deployment is because they knew they were going to need him to carry a huge heft defensively, so they didn't give him PP1 as well. He still played a lot on the power play. Raymond wasn't held back... he just was okay and then in the last two months of the year exploded huge.

Yzerman signed the Holl, Maatta, Copp, Compher guys so that they could have actually competitive games instead of getting caved in 6-1, 5-2, etc. while they rolled in Raymond and Seider and Ed and anyone else. It's not "be good enough to not lose, but not draft later than 15th. He's been hoping that they make the playoffs. Those were moves that they were hoping would get them to the playoffs.
The bigger point is that they only want to give long term (6+ years) to guys like Larkin, Raymond, and Seider. Everyone else, they get 4 years at max so there is roster mobility if they happen to land a really good young player.

I agree Seider and Raymond had plenty of minutes last season, but I don't think Yzerman maximized Seider's support to help "bloat" stats - (I know GMs don't coach, but I think there is something to it - i.e., not calling up ED). Raymond did have Larkin and Cat.... so yeah, I was wrong there.... that is not "trying to hold him back". I stand corrected.

I think Seider on PP1 and being used in a more offensive role will prove to be favorable. I think he has untapped offense. I don't think Yzerman wanted to untap that potential before contract negotiations. I think if Ed played last season, Wings make the playoffs. That's part of the reason why I think Yzerman is dangling a carrot. If you want to win, you play your best players. Ed would have eaten a lot of minutes, and it would look really nice on paper when the next contract negotiations begin.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I agree Seider and Raymond had plenty of minutes last season, but I don't think Yzerman maximized Seider's support to help "bloat" stats - (I know GMs don't coach, but I think there is something to it - i.e., not calling up ED). Raymond did have Larkin and Cat.... so yeah, I was wrong there.... that is not "trying to hold him back". I stand corrected.

I think Seider on PP1 and being used in a more offensive role will prove to be favorable. I think he has untapped offense. I don't think Yzerman wanted to untap that potential before contract negotiations. I think if Ed played last season, Wings make the playoffs. That's part of the reason why I think Yzerman is dangling a carrot. If you want to win, you play your best players. Ed would have eaten a lot of minutes, and it would look really nice on paper when the next contract negotiations begin.

Right, but the point that some (and it seems like you also) wanted to make is that Yzerman fiddled with Seider's deployment to lower his cap hit. Even if it did provide that benefit, there is a legitimate hockey reason why you would sign Shayne Gostisbehere and give him PP1 minutes in 2023 instead of doing everything for the greater glory of Moritz Seider and his upcoming deal.

Seider is played around 17 mins a night EV, 2.5 minutes on the PK, and another 2 on the PP. He's still just finished his 3rd season in the league. His deployment was designed to utilize him in every situation, not just the situations where he can pot points.... because he will be one of their two best players on the ice any given night.

He didn't instruct Lalonde to maximize support to bloat Seider's stats because to do so would be an idiotic way to try to win hockey games. The Wings in 1996-97 could have rolled even harder on teams if they deployed the Russian Five with abandon. They didn't, because there is a lot more overall value to the team if you keep the nuclear weapon locked up until you need it and deploy the individual pieces throughout the lineup. It's why Babcock kept trying to establish Datsyuk and Z as centers of their own lines instead of slapping the Eurotwins together forever.

Further, they didn't call up Ed because although people hated it forever... Yzerman sticks with the ripe/overripe pihlosophy. People in the hockey world value the development time in the AHL one gigantic hell of a lot more than most on this site. He doesn't want a guy like Edvinsson to come up and flounder for a meh team when he could be in GR on a good roster, being a leader. Develop good habits as opposed to having to cheat this way or that to simply survive in the NHL.

 

[Dotter]

Further, they didn't call up Ed because although people hated it forever... Yzerman sticks with the ripe/overripe pihlosophy. People in the hockey world value the development time in the AHL one gigantic hell of a lot more than most on this site. He doesn't want a guy like Edvinsson to come up and flounder for a meh team when he could be in GR on a good roster, being a leader. Develop good habits as opposed to having to cheat this way or that to simply survive in the NHL.

Seider and Raymond didn't have much AHL time. I think Ed (last season) was every bit deserving as those guys - so overripe makes no sense on using the aforementioned examples, ED would have gotten the minutes. *had Ed played, that would undoubtedly given significant help towards Seider's ridiculous workload, allowing Moritz to play a more offensive role. It makes sense why Ed wasn't brought up. 2-fold; helps keep Seider's production down, and gives Simon less(er) negotiation clout.

Do you honestly think Ed wasn't ready? I doubt anyone would agree with you. And using the overripe rule falls short when you look at Raymond and Seider's trajectory.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Seider and Raymond didn't have much AHL time. I think Ed (last season) was every bit deserving as those guys - so overripe makes no sense on using the aforementioned examples, ED would have gotten the minutes. *had Ed played, that would undoubtedly given significant help towards Seider's ridiculous workload, allowing Moritz to play a more offensive role. It makes sense why Ed wasn't brought up. 2-fold; helps keep Seider's production down, and gives Simon less(er) negotiation clout.

Do you honestly think Ed wasn't ready? I doubt anyone would agree with you. And using the overripe rule falls short when you look at Raymond and Seider's trajectory.

Ed was coming off shoulder surgery and did not look good enough in preseason to warrant getting into the lineup. I guess you could say he was a little overripe in that I was hoping he'd be in the lineup for about half the season. But in no way was he where Seider was at when Mo came into the lineup full time.

Even when he was in the lineup, Ed looked like what he was, a promising young defenseman. But not someone who was ridiculously overripe.

 

[Dotter]

Ed was coming off shoulder surgery and did not look good enough in preseason to warrant getting into the lineup. I guess you could say he was a little overripe in that I was hoping he'd be in the lineup for about half the season. But in no way was he where Seider was at when Mo came into the lineup full time.

Even when he was in the lineup, Ed looked like what he was, a promising young defenseman. But not someone who was ridiculously overripe.

That's not how I saw it. He looked like he didn't belong in the AHL to me. He could have easily been in the NHL last season. I would even argue if he played (even half the season), Wings would have found their way into the playoffs. He was quickly proving to be a real difference maker.