Where are Swiss talents?

[Speyer]

Agree sample size is to small i am by no means a scout and the only time when i see these players is when i watch switzerland‘s live streams. Just wanted to post my thoughts. Regarding Ustinkov: i agree his shot needs to improve, but i am a bit more confident that he isn’t delemont 2.0 because he can do this on the international level against a good team in the czechs so maybe it translated better to the international level than for delemont. I also want to say i feel like jamiro reber could get some games next year for langnau if he doesn’t stagnate like 90% of our prospects because they are willing to give young players at least small chances and it would be good pr for them to overshadow their bad performances. All in All i am excited and curios how they play against good competition in colorado springs if they play well maybe next year we can prevent double digits against canada.

I don't think he is delemont 2.0 either. He seems much more consistent defensively and has much more impressive physical attributes and better hands. But if you are an offensive minded dman that plays on the PP wich I think Ustinkov wants to be you just have to have at least a competent shot. If you don't the opposing players will just know that and try to close your passing lanes. But its certainly not impossible for him to get better in that regard especially at his age. JJ Moser for example had a borderline terrible shot until a couple seasons ago. Now its basically one of his strenghts. Regarding Reber I am not sure if he can get NLA time as soon as next season. But being the son of a Lagnau legend that has probably still a lot to say in the club, despite not being the GM anymore, should certainly help his future outlook though.

 

[pgfan66]

Agree sample size is to small i am by no means a scout and the only time when i see these players is when i watch switzerland‘s live streams. Just wanted to post my thoughts. Regarding Ustinkov: i agree his shot needs to improve, but i am a bit more confident that he isn’t delemont 2.0 because he can do this on the international level against a good team in the czechs so maybe it translated better to the international level than for delemont. I also want to say i feel like jamiro reber could get some games next year for langnau if he doesn’t stagnate like 90% of our prospects because they are willing to give young players at least small chances and it would be good pr for them to overshadow their bad performances. All in All i am excited and curios how they play against good competition in colorado springs if they play well maybe next year we can prevent double digits against canada.

I liked Ustinkov as well but, in this small sample size, I couldn’t give you a definitive ranking of him, Muggli, Johnson and Meier. In the first game, I liked Muggli the most and Meier the least, in the second and third I liked Ustinkov the most. Meier was a lot better in games two and three as well, whereas Muggli wasn’t as noticeable. Johnson just kind of existed but I felt like he consistently made smart plays.

Meier is an interesting one because at times his skating looks awful but if he can brush that up, I think he has really high upside.

 

[Kuracmugger]

I don't think he is delemont 2.0 either. He seems much more consistent defensively and has much more impressive physical attributes and better hands. But if you are an offensive minded dman that plays on the PP wich I think Ustinkov wants to be you just have to have at least a competent shot. If you don't the opposing players will just know that and try to close your passing lanes. But its certainly not impossible for him to get better in that regard especially at his age. JJ Moser for example had a borderline terrible shot until a couple seasons ago. Now its basically one of his strenghts. Regarding Reber I am not sure if he can get NLA time as soon as next season. But being the son of a Lagnau legend that has probably still a lot to say in the club, despite not being the GM anymore, should certainly help his future outlook though.

I think he‘s the 06 with the best chances on NL ice time because of his dad and langnau crisis. I don’t see the zug 06‘s getting chances and there are older zug juniors who would get a shot first. Bosson is still with the lions so he definitely won‘t play NL because rikard grönborg(if he still is around then, i think he has a contract until then) but SL is likely since many players get games and ice time for GCK. Same for Ustinkov. I agree with what you said about his shot luckily shooting and shot power are pretty easy to improve if you put in work. That’s what moser must have done. And the rest of the 06’s is most likely not good enough unless they improve unexpectedly much what is possible considering there’s a full season until then.

 

[Speyer]

I think he‘s the 06 with the best chances on NL ice time because of his dad and langnau crisis. I don’t see the zug 06‘s getting chances and there are older zug juniors who would get a shot first. Bosson is still with the lions so he definitely won‘t play NL because rikard grönborg(if he still is around then, i think he has a contract until then) but SL is likely since many players get games and ice time for GCK. Same for Ustinkov. I agree with what you said about his shot luckily shooting and shot power are pretty easy to improve if you put in work. That’s what moser must have done. And the rest of the 06’s is most likely not good enough unless they improve unexpectedly much what is possible considering there’s a full season until then.

Yes out of the 06 guys he certainly has the best odds. I still remain sceptical though, even Bichsel could barely get any minutes in his draft minus 1 season for Biel and he was a much more mature player than Reber is right now, not just physically.

 

[Kuracmugger]

Yes out of the 06 guys he certainly has the best odds. I still remain sceptical though, even Bichsel could barely get any minutes in his draft minus 1 season for Biel and he was a much more mature player than Reber is right now, not just physically.

That’s true. Fun fact Biel‘s GM Steinegger said Bichsel would‘ve played for the first team if he would’ve stayed here. But what came to my mind right now is that Biel‘s doing the best job with young players and prospects almost all our last draft picks came from their organization. Bichsel, Moser, Nussbaumer thats why i have hope in Braillard and that he gets a shot at the NL level because i know he signed only for next season 23/24 in the CHL.

 

[Speyer]

That’s true. Fun fact Biel‘s GM Steinegger said Bichsel would‘ve played for the first team if he would’ve stayed here. But what came to my mind right now is that Biel‘s doing the best job with young players and prospects almost all our last draft picks came from their organization. Bichsel, Moser, Nussbaumer thats why i have hope in Braillard and that he gets a shot at the NL level because i know he signed only for next season 23/24 in the CHL.

Bichsel himself said in an interview he talked to the staff and they only "promised" him very limited minutes on the bottom pairing. He also said this was one of the reasons wich lead him to go to Sweden. But in a league wide comparison Biel is still about the best environment you can be in as a prospect coming out of juniors. No comparison to lets say Zürich. Kind of a shame when you think about it, since it wasn't that long ago since Malgin, Siegenthaler and Suter played there as 17/18 year olds...

 

[Hinterland]

Bichsel himself said in an interview he talked to the staff and they only "promised" him very limited minutes on the bottom pairing. He also said this was one of the reasons wich lead him to go to Sweden. But in a league wide comparison Biel is still about the best environment you can be in as a prospect coming out of juniors. No comparison to lets say Zürich. Kind of a shame when you think about it, since it wasn't that long ago since Malgin, Siegenthaler and Suter played there as 17/18 year olds...

No pro team in Europe's top leagues would have "promised" him more. Which is fine. Gotta earn your ice time as a player and ideally the club does then reward the player. Leksands didn't promise him anything and it was still the right choice to move to Sweden. They got him to play for their under 20 team but instantly put him in their SHL team when, in camp, it turned out he's good enough.

 

[Speyer]

No pro team in Europe's top leagues would have "promised" him more.

"Promised" was probably the wrong wording on my part due to limited vocabulary. All I know is he discussed his prospects with Biels management and didn't like the scenario they laid on him enough to stay in Switzerland.

Which is fine. Gotta earn your ice time as a player and ideally the club does then reward the player. Leksands didn't promise him anything and it was still the right choice to move to Sweden. They got him to play for their under 20 team but instantly put him in their SHL team when, in camp, it turned out he's good enough.

This might have been the key factor for the decision. Even if he only played sporadicly and small minutes for Leksands first team there would still be the competitive swedish U20 league to fall back on in order to get some experience. In Switzerland he probably would have played part of the season in our subpar U20 league and maybe a handful of games in Langental.

 

[Kuracmugger]

"Promised" was probably the wrong wording on my part due to limited vocabulary. All I know is he discussed his prospects with Biels management and didn't like the scenario they laid on him enough to stay in Switzerland.




This might have been the key factor for the decision. Even if he only played sporadicly and small minutes for Leksands first team there would still be the competitive swedish U20 league to fall back on in order to get some experience. In Switzerland he probably would have played part of the season in our subpar U20 league and maybe a handful of games in Langental.

It turned out to be the right move for him. In general going to scandinavia is the only good idea for swiss prospects. The CHL isn't a good oportunity anymore nobody got drafted out of the CHL since Nussbaumer and he was a projected first rounder and tourned out to be a 7th. Knak was drafted out of the CHL too but i don't really count him because he played for davos too that season and it was the special 20/21 season with only 24 games. i don't really see why you would go to the CHL to be a 3 or maybe 4th liner instead of playing big minutes here. What i want to say if all our young players or almost all stayed here the level of our u20 league would be much better. We have about 13-15 players in the CHL every year who are often NT players or above average players in the u20 league. But i can understand the players it's cooler to go to canada and play infront of the big stage when the chances to play in the NL are so small here. It's also the clubs fault they don't sign there players to contracts before they can leave, it doesn't have to be big money but if you pay them a bit which they certainly have enough money for and let them practice and have some games with the men's team they'd definitely stay here. I think davos has a type of concept of this with "talent plans" or something like that where some players are in the extended roster of the first team and have special practice to improve more. And it seems to work since many players transfer there and i can't think of a player who left for the CHL exception julian Parée who is going to sweden this year what i can't really understand but yeah.
I kind of got off topic but i wanted to share my opinion on this.

 

[Speyer]

It turned out to be the right move for him. In general going to scandinavia is the only good idea for swiss prospects. The CHL isn't a good oportunity anymore nobody got drafted out of the CHL since Nussbaumer and he was a projected first rounder and tourned out to be a 7th. Knak was drafted out of the CHL too but i don't really count him because he played for davos too that season and it was the special 20/21 season with only 24 games. i don't really see why you would go to the CHL to be a 3 or maybe 4th liner instead of playing big minutes here. What i want to say if all our young players or almost all stayed here the level of our u20 league would be much better. We have about 13-15 players in the CHL every year who are often NT players or above average players in the u20 league. But i can understand the players it's cooler to go to canada and play infront of the big stage when the chances to play in the NL are so small here. It's also the clubs fault they don't sign there players to contracts before they can leave, it doesn't have to be big money but if you pay them a bit which they certainly have enough money for and let them practice and have some games with the men's team they'd definitely stay here. I think davos has a type of concept of this with "talent plans" or something like that where some players are in the extended roster of the first team and have special practice to improve more. And it seems to work since many players transfer there and i can't think of a player who left for the CHL exception julian Parée who is going to sweden this year what i can't really understand but yeah.
I kind of got off topic but i wanted to share my opinion on this.

I think its more complicated than that. In my opinion you can land in a good or a bad situation in either country. Yes the CHL didn't work out for Canonica and Nussbaumer for example. But I am not sure they would have been better of in Sweden. A few years ago the CHL worked well for guys like Hischier, Kurashev Meier, Ehlers and most recently Marco Rossi. The best possible path would be through the NLA though. The Germans are bringing up all of their top prospects through their own league for example and very successfully so. Even Seider who went to Sweden afterwards was drafted out of the DEL. But that means you have to give the players a chance at some point. It seems our clubs would prefer to keep them in juniors until they turn 23.

 

[Kuracmugger]

I think its more complicated than that. In my opinion you can land in a good or a bad situation in either country. Yes the CHL didn't work out for Canonica and Nussbaumer for example. But I am not sure they would have been better of in Sweden. A few years ago the CHL worked well for guys like Hischier, Kurashev Meier, Ehlers and most recently Marco Rossi. The best possible path would be through the NLA though. The Germans are bringing up all of their top prospects through their own league for example and very successfully so. Even Seider who went to Sweden afterwards was drafted out of the DEL. But that means you have to give the players a chance at some point. It seems our clubs would prefer to keep them in juniors until they turn 23.

Yess because they‘ve got an overload of players already with 6 foreigners maybe 2-3 license swiss players and the swiss players so no shots for young players. There are some people who suggest a rule to have for example one u20 or u21 or smth like that player every game like they have in germany i believe. But i think abolishing the license swiss players and cutting down to 4-5 foreigners will solve most of it.

 

[Speyer]

Yess because they‘ve got an overload of players already with 6 foreigners maybe 2-3 license swiss players and the swiss players so no shots for young players. There are some people who suggest a rule to have for example one u20 or u21 or smth like that player every game like they have in germany i believe. But i think abolishing the license swiss players and cutting down to 4-5 foreigners will solve most of it.

A rule that enforces the deployment of u20 players would be good first step. But there should be a ice time minimum to this rule so teams won't just give a junior player one or two shifts just to meet the quota. Are there really that many foreign players with a swiss license in the NLA? Of course I could name quite a few players on top of my head but it would be interesting to see a list for the whole league. An abolition of that system might make the junior leagues less attractive to foreign prospects thogh.

 

[Kuracmugger]

A rule that enforces the deployment of u20 players would be good first step. But there should be a ice time minimum to this rule so teams won't just give a junior player one or two shifts just to meet the quota. Are there really that many foreign players with a swiss license in the NLA? Of course I could name quite a few players on top of my head but it would be interesting to see a list for the whole league. An abolition of that system might make the junior leagues less attractive to foreign prospects thogh.

I can make a list real quick

 

[Kuracmugger]

A rule that enforces the deployment of u20 players would be good first step. But there should be a ice time minimum to this rule so teams won't just give a junior player one or two shifts just to meet the quota. Are there really that many foreign players with a swiss license in the NLA? Of course I could name quite a few players on top of my head but it would be interesting to see a list for the whole league. An abolition of that system might make the junior leagues less attractive to foreign prospects thogh.

License swiss player per team
Biel:
Fabio Hofer
kloten:
Jesper Peltonen
David Reinbacher
Jordann Bougro
Patrick Obrist
Harrison Schreiber
Ajoie:
Thomas thiry
Kevin Bozon
Ambri:
Diego Kostner
Stefan Müller
Kilian Zündel
William Hedlund
Dominic Zwerger
Zsc:
None but nauris sejejs and rihards melnalksnis posses a swiss license and play for gck
Zug:
Daniel Neumann
Bern:
Benjamin Baumgartner
Rapperswil:
Petr cajka
Lugano:
Davide fadani
Bern Wolf
Raphael herburger
Marco zanetti
Giovanni morini
Davos:
None
Geneve:
Deniss Smirnovs
Eliot Berthon
Fribourg:
Dominik binais
Langnau:
Oskars lapinskis
Lausanne:
Ivars Punnenovs
Viktor Östlund
Tim Bozon
Floran Douay
Ronalds kenins
Paulin Mainot

So you see most teams have about 2-3 of them lugano and lausanne have the most with about 5. But i find the license swiss players a bigger problem as the normal foreigners because they are mostly medicore players who are role players in the 3 4th line. And in this position they are a bigger threat to the young players since that’s where they would get their chance. I mean what do you like more a 18 year old swiss talent playing in the 4th line or a 25 year old latvian/french grinder with zero impact. And you have to keep in mind those players add on to the 6 foreigners so with 3 license swiss players you’d have 9 foreigners what’s about half the team lausanne has 12 with rochette even 13 i believe. Do you understand my opinion now?

 

[Kuracmugger]

A rule that enforces the deployment of u20 players would be good first step. But there should be a ice time minimum to this rule so teams won't just give a junior player one or two shifts just to meet the quota. Are there really that many foreign players with a swiss license in the NLA? Of course I could name quite a few players on top of my head but it would be interesting to see a list for the whole league. An abolition of that system might make the junior leagues less attractive to foreign prospects thogh.

And yess that would be not very attravtive for foreign players but to get the swiss license you need to play in Switzerland for a minimum of 5 years in junior and if you lived here for that long you can easily get the swiss pass as far as i know and with that they could maybe join our NR if good enough four ours- or not good enough for their country. And i don’t believe we turn into soccer national team 2.0 with only foreign named players with forcing those players to get the swiss pass.

 

[Speyer]

License swiss player per team
Biel:
Fabio Hofer
kloten:
Jesper Peltonen
David Reinbacher
Jordann Bougro
Patrick Obrist
Harrison Schreiber
Ajoie:
Thomas thiry
Kevin Bozon
Ambri:
Diego Kostner
Stefan Müller
Kilian Zündel
William Hedlund
Dominic Zwerger
Zsc:
None but nauris sejejs and rihards melnalksnis posses a swiss license and play for gck
Zug:
Daniel Neumann
Bern:
Benjamin Baumgartner
Rapperswil:
Petr cajka
Lugano:
Davide fadani
Bern Wolf
Raphael herburger
Marco zanetti
Giovanni morini
Davos:
None
Geneve:
Deniss Smirnovs
Eliot Berthon
Fribourg:
Dominik binais
Langnau:
Oskars lapinskis
Lausanne:
Ivars Punnenovs
Viktor Östlund
Tim Bozon
Floran Douay
Ronalds kenins
Paulin Mainot

So you see most teams have about 2-3 of them lugano and lausanne have the most with about 5. But i find the license swiss players a bigger problem as the normal foreigners because they are mostly medicore players who are role players in the 3 4th line. And in this position they are a bigger threat to the young players since that’s where they would get their chance. I mean what do you like more a 18 year old swiss talent playing in the 4th line or a 25 year old latvian/french grinder with zero impact. And you have to keep in mind those players add on to the 6 foreigners so with 3 license swiss players you’d have 9 foreigners what’s about half the team lausanne has 12 with rochette even 13 i believe. Do you understand my opinion now?

Its certainly worth thinking about since there are more of those players than I thought. Implementing such a rule would be probably very difficult though. I imagine the clubs would fight it pretty hard espcially the ones based in ticino. Then you would have to implement transitional rules until every ongoing contract is expired...

 

[ItWasJustified]

The decision to allow more foreigners per team will be detrimental to Swiss hockey.

 

[Hinterland]

I think its more complicated than that. In my opinion you can land in a good or a bad situation in either country. Yes the CHL didn't work out for Canonica and Nussbaumer for example. But I am not sure they would have been better of in Sweden. A few years ago the CHL worked well for guys like Hischier, Kurashev Meier, Ehlers and most recently Marco Rossi. The best possible path would be through the NLA though. The Germans are bringing up all of their top prospects through their own league for example and very successfully so. Even Seider who went to Sweden afterwards was drafted out of the DEL. But that means you have to give the players a chance at some point. It seems our clubs would prefer to keep them in juniors until they turn 23.

Exactly. The Swedes are known for giving kids chances and they have a good 2nd tier league and a good junior league you can fall back to. But when it comes to SHL the giving kids chances thing goes for young Swedes, not foreigners. As a Swiss kid you don't get anything for free in Sweden, let alone the benefit of the doubt or the tie breaker over a Swede when it comes to SHL slots or minutes. If you're not as good as Bichsel, you're simply not gonna play in the SHL. Period. The Swedes are very good at developing talent. Certainly the best in Europe but they do this for themselves, not other Europeans. For every player and club, the situation is different so I agree you can't say Sweden is always better than NA. If I had to pick I'd lean towards Sweden as well but it's very individual.

 

[Hinterland]

The decision to allow more foreigners per team will be detrimental to Swiss hockey.

I don't like it either but it remains to be seen. I think @Kuracmugger has a good point as well with the licence players.

But this discussion remains entirely pointless until we get better pro coaches and a better U20 junior league. The talent is there but it's a structural problem and at some point, making progress in Switzerland becomes hard for the kids. A few NL imports more or less...I couldn't care less until the structural problems are solved. Even if it's a positive for Swiss hockey, it doesn't even scratch the surface of the problems.

 

[Kuracmugger]

Its certainly worth thinking about since there are more of those players than I thought. Implementing such a rule would be probably very difficult though. I imagine the clubs would fight it pretty hard espcially the ones based in ticino. Then you would have to implement transitional rules until every ongoing contract is expired...

That’s true but dump IMO which of these players except of Zwerger kenins and maybe baumgartner (who was also pretty average the last year) were more than average and not replacable you can throw in morini or hofer too. But who of those players would be kept on the roster when counting to foreign contingent. But that’s the value of zwerger kenins and those bot the others are really unnecessary. I would come up with the same transitional solution too. And it was kind of abolished btw. From this season the players keep swiss player license until 23 then they lose it what i don’t understand because with our system that’s the age where they finally get the chance or the clubs will just keep them at that age which isn’t perfect either. Btw the ticino teams: Ambri really punched rocco Pezzullo by signing kilian Zündel a fellow 01 who’s foreign after pezzullo didn’t get ice time this season. Btw you are a fan of lugano or ambri if i remember that right aren’t you?

 

[Speyer]

That’s true but dump IMO which of these players except of Zwerger kenins and maybe baumgartner (who was also pretty average the last year) were more than average and not replacable you can throw in morini or hofer too. But who of those players would be kept on the roster when counting to foreign contingent. But that’s the value of zwerger kenins and those bot the others are really unnecessary. I would come up with the same transitional solution too. And it was kind of abolished btw. From this season the players keep swiss player license until 23 then they lose it what i don’t understand because with our system that’s the age where they finally get the chance or the clubs will just keep them at that age which isn’t perfect either. Btw the ticino teams: Ambri really punched rocco Pezzullo by signing kilian Zündel a fellow 01 who’s foreign after pezzullo didn’t get ice time this season. Btw you are a fan of lugano or ambri if i remember that right aren’t you?

No I am not, I have some sympathies for Ambri but I am not a fan. I also think what you are proposing is a good idea but I am just afraid that our clubs wont see the big picture and try shoot down such a concept for no other reason than that it poses some immediate problems for them. But I personally, if it frees up roster spots for young swiss players, am all for it. And as you said, its not like it would negatively affect the league quality very much. But as Hinterland pointed out, lets also forget that the NLA is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to our "junior hockey problems".

 

[Kuracmugger]

No I am not, I have some sympathies for Ambri but I am not a fan. I also think what you are proposing is a good idea but I am just afraid that our clubs wont see the big picture and try shoot down such a concept for no other reason than that it poses some immediate problems for them. But I personally, if it frees up roster spots for young swiss players, am all for it. And as you said, its not like it would negatively affect the league quality very much. But as Hinterland pointed out, lets also forget that the NLA is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to our "junior hockey problems".

But i think it’s an opportunity to fix the problems most of our projected draft picks have. They seem to stagnate in their draft year. If they get to play for the men‘s team they will make huge progress in my opinion. If you can defend roman cervenka in the NL you can defend fairly against shane wright or connor bedard since cervenka is better at the moment. In general if you play against men you will be definitely better than those who don’t. I feel like many of our players fail in the CHL since it’s hard to get accustomed and all in your draft year if your not as good as nico hischier or meier. Most or our players make huge steps when they get ice time in the NL but then it’s to late for them to get drafted. Example nathan vouardoux who nobody thought he‘d play that good as he did or joshua Fahrni who most people didn‘t even know. Also players like Eggenberger Perform better now.

 

[Hinterland]

But i think it’s an opportunity to fix the problems most of our projected draft picks have. They seem to stagnate in their draft year. If they get to play for the men‘s team they will make huge progress in my opinion. If you can defend roman cervenka in the NL you can defend fairly against shane wright or connor bedard since cervenka is better at the moment. In general if you play against men you will be definitely better than those who don’t. I feel like many of our players fail in the CHL since it’s hard to get accustomed and all in your draft year if your not as good as nico hischier or meier. Most or our players make huge steps when they get ice time in the NL but then it’s to late for them to get drafted. Example nathan vouardoux who nobody thought he‘d play that good as he did or joshua Fahrni who most people didn‘t even know. Also players like Eggenberger Perform better now.

So I'm not up to date... do you know what happened to the plan to eliminate that Swiss licence? Is it still an option or not? I think the original plan was to allow even more imports but count all foreigners towards imports.

 

[Kuracmugger]

So I'm not up to date... do you know what happened to the plan to eliminate that Swiss licence? Is it still an option or not? I think the original plan was to allow even more imports but count all foreigners towards imports.

I said it above but the players who have the license right now keep it and since this season players who get a swiss license keep it until 23 so they changed it but i don’t now about the effect in the near future.

 

[Speyer]

But i think it’s an opportunity to fix the problems most of our projected draft picks have. They seem to stagnate in their draft year. If they get to play for the men‘s team they will make huge progress in my opinion. If you can defend roman cervenka in the NL you can defend fairly against shane wright or connor bedard since cervenka is better at the moment. In general if you play against men you will be definitely better than those who don’t. I feel like many of our players fail in the CHL since it’s hard to get accustomed and all in your draft year if your not as good as nico hischier or meier. Most or our players make huge steps when they get ice time in the NL but then it’s to late for them to get drafted. Example nathan vouardoux who nobody thought he‘d play that good as he did or joshua Fahrni who most people didn‘t even know. Also players like Eggenberger Perform better now.

Dont get me wrong it would certainly be a good step and probably the best "quick fix" to correct the course. But you have to look at junior coaching in the clubs and how the national teams are run as well to really get to the root of the problem. Those are the main reasons our U18 players are this much behind the top nations right now. Even in the scenario you are describing those players would just start now to make the NLA while already trailing their international peers.