When will Bouchard be considered elite?

[Fishy McScales]

The sad part is that the numbers are out there for everyone to look at. When they don't fit with your narrative or world view though.. Hell, numbers can't be trusted.

And there's always the arrogant "I've watched the player and am comfortable with my opinion", which either makes them a liar, terrible hockey analyst or flat-out troll.

Usually all three probably.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Elite PP merchant and at coughing up pucks around his own net.

The guy with 15 even strength points and a +14 is a powerplay merchant?

 

[Bank Shot]

Kind of cruel to just ignore LA like that lol

Well since the Oilers beat the Kings twice already its was firmly established that the Kings are the worst team in the history of the playoffs. No glory to be gained there.

 

[Buck Naked]

Well since the Oilers beat the Kings twice already its was firmly established that the Kings are the worst team in the history of the playoffs. No glory to be gained there.

It's pretty funny actually. When the Avs won two years ago they played the Preds with a 3rd goalie (Kings this year was a much better team), the Blues (Canucks this year was a much better team), and the Oilers who couldn't defend even if their lives depended on it (Stars this year was a much better team), yet no one trashed them for having an "easy" route to the finals.

 

[Czechboy]

It's pretty funny actually. When the Avs won two years ago they played the Preds with a 3rd goalie (Kings this year was a much better team), the Blues (Canucks this year was a much better team), and the Oilers who couldn't defend even if their lives depended on it (Stars this year was a much better team), yet no one trashed them for having an "easy" route to the finals.

By my count, we are on roughly game 100 of the easiest schedule in NHL history.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Oilers better be ready to plan for the cap. Draisaitl McDavid and Bouchard going to get some raises.

Any Bouchard hate I had is gone. The question isn't is he elite. It's now how elite and where is he in the defensemen ratings?

Top 10? Top 15?

 

[Sasha Orlov]

By my count, we are on roughly game 100 of the easiest schedule in NHL history.

For real, until the Oilers win a championship in the Galactic Hockey Federation they don’t deserve any credit

 

[Czechboy]

For real, until the Oilers win a championship in the Galactic Hockey Federation they don’t deserve any credit

We'd get an easy schedule in the Galactic federation too! And we'd still be PP merchants in space.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

It's pretty funny actually. When the Avs won two years ago they played the Preds with a 3rd goalie (Kings this year was a much better team), the Blues (Canucks this year was a much better team), and the Oilers who couldn't defend even if their lives depended on it (Stars this year was a much better team), yet no one trashed them for having an "easy" route to the finals.

The Avs had a much easier path than people realize. Even the Blues goalie got hurt.

It's an unpopular opinion but I strongly believe those 2 Tampa cup teams were better than the 2022 Avs.

I also don't see the Avs group winning another one.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Oilers better be ready to plan for the cap. Draisaitl McDavid and Bouchard going to get some raises.

Any Bouchard hate I had is gone. The question isn't is he elite. It's now how elite and where is he in the defensemen ratings?

Top 10? Top 15?

It's very hard to rank players, but I probably have him around 15. If he keeps rounding out his game he definitely has the potential to climb way up.

 

[OilersFanatics505]

It's pretty funny actually. When the Avs won two years ago they played the Preds with a 3rd goalie (Kings this year was a much better team), the Blues (Canucks this year was a much better team), and the Oilers who couldn't defend even if their lives depended on it (Stars this year was a much better team), yet no one trashed them for having an "easy" route to the finals.

Avs also had 3 and a half eyes for their goalies combined, used their backup to win important games, had a star player suspended, and had major injuries to some star players.

What part of all that sounds easy? Outside of Predators, it was a tough playoffs.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Avs also had 3 and a half eyes for their goalies combined, used their backup to win important games, had a star player suspended, and had major injuries to some star players.

What part of all that sounds easy? Outside of Predators, it was a tough playoffs.

K What. The injures to to the Avs doesn't change how easy of a path they had regarding the strength of their opponents.

 

[OilersFanatics505]

K What. The injures to to the Avs doesn't change how easy of a path they had regarding the strength of their opponents.

It brings the skills and abilities of both teams closer, which makes the strength of the opponents less of a divide.

edit: it’s also a weird stance to take that the Avs had the “easiest path” when they finished the season with 119 points, best in the conference (outside of Florida whos irrelevant in the point you’re trying to make). It’s not like there was anyone who finished the season higher than them in the standings. All while the Avs never had their whole roster the entire 82 games.

 

[New Jersey Devils]

He’s probably elite and has the numbers to back it up, but I cannot get over the fact he looks like a mechanic that tells me I need a new alternator after breaking down in the middle of nowhere.

 

[gach]

He easily deserves more than Nurse

 

[Mr Positive]

The Avs had a much easier path than people realize. Even the Blues goalie got hurt.

It's an unpopular opinion but I strongly believe those 2 Tampa cup teams were better than the 2022 Avs.

I also don't see the Avs group winning another one.

That's a good point actually. It's just that on paper the Avs have everything a traditional contender would have, minus the elite goalie. I suppose the ease of their path doesn't mean that they would not have won if it was harder.

And of course they've been a bit cursed in the past two years. Losing Landeskog is huge, and then all the distraction around Nichuskin was awful this year. Being down Landeskog and Nichuskin is hard to bear

They've been trying different replacements in Johansen and Middlestat. Landeskog could even return. So there is still the chance that the Avs of 2022 could return and show true elite elements again

And they are still a great team even with all this going on

 

[FinlandPanther]

So you can look at this for example.

And you'd rather have this right:

Now, I admit that game score isn't the perfect measure for absolutely everything. But it's still pretty good, with strong predictive power for an aggregate stat. But the funny thing is that Bouchard will do great no matter the type of measures you use. Whether it's points scored, plus-minus, advanced stats, etc. Bouchard is the best skater in the playoffs.

And yes, relative to expectations for the position, Bouchard has been better than both Draisaitl and McDavid. This one was for Drai:

And vs Dallas thus far, Bouchard has been #1 in game score in 4 games out of 5.


Just imagine if a person said they'd rather have a 11 point forward over a 25 point forward.

Bouchard having a better defensive rating than Forsling is laughable.

 

[Mr Positive]

Bouchard having a better defensive rating than Forsling is laughable.

You can't deny the stats though. If you still want to say Forsling is better than Bouchard defensively, fine, but then you have to say that the team around Bouchard is better defensively than the team around Forsling

 

[ijuka]

Bouchard having a better defensive rating than Forsling is laughable.

I mean, they are objective, and based on statistics. There's nothing subjective going on there. No opinions, either. It's just a model, whose aim is to gauge player performance. It's not perfect, but. But.

xGF? Bouchard has done better. Plus-minus? Bouchard has done better. Goal differential? Bouchard has done better. Relative corsi? Bouchard has done better. Impact in relation to rest of the team? Bouchard has done better.

If we go to relative stats, then Bouchard has done far, far, far better in comparison. Because the other defensive pairings of the Oilers have been train wrecks.

Essentially, the only way to argue that Bouchard is not elite is to discount statistics. For which there just is no basis.

And, by the way, keep in mind that the model predicted Oiler as the cup favorites before the season started, and Oilers are now in the finals. What did you predict as the team in finals out of west?


These are more accurate and granular ways to measure player performance. But fortunately, Bouchard will do better than Forsling in those as well.

 

[TheNumber4]

So you can look at this for example.

And you'd rather have this right:

Now, I admit that game score isn't the perfect measure for absolutely everything. But it's still pretty good, with strong predictive power for an aggregate stat. But the funny thing is that Bouchard will do great no matter the type of measures you use. Whether it's points scored, plus-minus, advanced stats, etc. Bouchard is the best skater in the playoffs.

And yes, relative to expectations for the position, Bouchard has been better than both Draisaitl and McDavid. This one was for Drai:

And vs Dallas thus far, Bouchard has been #1 in game score in 4 games out of 5.


Just imagine if a person said they'd rather have a 11 point forward over a 25 point forward.

Lol Gustav Forsling. PUH-LEASEEEEEEEE.

Bouchard having a better defensive rating than Forsling is laughable.

Yeh you watching alot of 11PM Oilers games out there?

 

[KevinRedkey]

 

[Buck Naked]

Avs also had 3 and a half eyes for their goalies combined, used their backup to win important games, had a star player suspended, and had major injuries to some star players.

What part of all that sounds easy? Outside of Predators, it was a tough playoffs.

The Oilers have Stuart Skinner, who just about a week ago had a career playoff svs% that was second worst of all time. All I'm saying is, no playoff team competes without injuries or other factors impacting them negatively. At this point in the season, every team can beat every team and, therefore, no way to the finals is the easy path. I just gave a counter example based on the awful argument that the Oilers' had an easy path during these playoffs, because they didn't. And if people still think they did, well, then a lot of recent cup winners, who doesn't get discredited for their playoff success, did too. All you have to do is look it up. Most people on HF are like animals though. They act and post based on their instinct rather than facts. And if they spent 30 seconds googling what they're arguing, they would realize how stupid they sound.

 

[ijuka]

Funny how Stars before facing Oilers were said to be the heavy favorite because their road there had been far tougher, the toughest in the entire playoffs in fact, and that Oilers were going to be their easiest matchup.

Then after they lost to Oilers, the revisionists are now building this narrative that Stars never was that good anyway and that they only defeated weak, flawed teams, because otherwise they'd have to give Oilers credit.


And now apparently the Panthers have had the stronger road to the finals, even though they haven't actually faced any serious contender. Tampa, okay, but they weren't that good all year. Bruins top 2 Cs are the worst in all the playoffs, and spent the entire season overachieving but had no real expectations for the season. And of course, Rangers are the epitome of a team being carried by their goalie, especially as their star players have notorious disappearance acts in the playoffs.

And now this is built up as such an impressive path to the finals and how Oilers have never faced a tougher team. Especially this narrative that Oilers cannot handle physical play is interesting. Wonder if they've looked at their lineup.

 

[Fishy McScales]

Bouchard having a better defensive rating than Forsling is laughable.

Why do you think that?

If it is laughable you must have a pretty extensive or even damn near complete picture of the two players head-to-head. Odd that you wouldn't go into any detail whatsoever in that case.

Almost like you just felt instinctively offended that the numbers didn't match your personal preconceptions.

 

[FinlandPanther]

Lol Gustav Forsling. PUH-LEASEEEEEEEE.


Yeh you watching alot of 11PM Oilers games out there?

Bouchard got thrashed early season about how soft and shit he was and he magically turned into a defensive stalwart? LOL. You better hope he is Becuase he is going to be pressured HARD all game.

Why do you think that?

If it is laughable you must have a pretty extensive or even damn near complete picture of the two players head-to-head. Odd that you wouldn't go into any detail whatsoever in that case.

Almost like you just felt instinctively offended that the numbers didn't match your personal preconceptions.

No you just don’t realize how elite defensively Forsling is. Bouchard is not.