When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?
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SoundAndFury
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What's wrong with people discussing the rebuild which after 8 years of missing the playoffs relies on a pile of FA signings to have 8% chance of getting into the PO? Who is climate change denier now?
ViewsFromThe6ix
Zachary on the Attackary
Don’t worry guys, they have three #1D in the wings. Rebuild is fine.
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
Pavels Dog
Registered User
You're using 18 games to judge a 6-10 year rebuilding process, yes you are still behaving like someone denying climate change because it's been a cold couple of weeks.
Seider: #1D
Edvinsson: looks great on a top-pairing, needs to start regressing to not be #2D at minimum
Sandin-Pellikka: on pace for best U20 season of all-time in SHL
Yes, how ridiculous to claim these are good young d-men.
SoundAndFury
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Yzerman signed those FAs to push you over the edge into contention and 3 years after his shopping spree has nothing to show for it. Now most of them have negative value and aren't actually helping with the "process" in any way. Yet you are using the fact that they might accumulate enough talent to get into the playoffs over 10 years as some kind of redeeming feature.
Yes, if you have 0 expectations this rebuild is right on track since you will get something eventually with multiple first-round picks every year.
That wasn't the claim and you know it lol.
Kulich Rosen Ostlund Benson two 1sts . We take Larkin and Seider you can re-rebuild.
TheBeerNerd
Registered User
Starting a proper rebuild is like dealing with alcoholism- the first step is admitting you have a problem, but most teams aren't honest with themselves and let things get worse until they wake up in a ditch on the side of the road. Artificially trying to keep that playoff window open was Detroit's first mistake.
I really don't see what the Yzerplan is getting at. The reason some of these rebuilds take so long with little or no progress is because they don't also come with a team identity. I couldn't tell you what the Red Wings' is. They've been screwed by lottery luck, but you gotta take what you can get and get some guys in the later rounds that pan out. The development has been subpar with the young guys either not taking the next step or just flat out not being as good as expected. Finally, you can't just sign shiny new toys in free agency to fill roster spots, especially when they're expensive. Kane and Tarasenko need to be added later, and they need to fit in with that identity.
The reason the Devils got out of a lengthy rebuild is because they eventually checked off all of those boxes- build around the youth core, establish an identity as a fast team, and get vets who fit that mold. It hasn't been all perfect, and they had to retool with that identity this offseason, but it's safe to say that they are out of it. What steps have the Wings taken with any of that? The Yzerplan should have started with an identity and went from there.
I really don't see what the Yzerplan is getting at. The reason some of these rebuilds take so long with little or no progress is because they don't also come with a team identity. I couldn't tell you what the Red Wings' is. They've been screwed by lottery luck, but you gotta take what you can get and get some guys in the later rounds that pan out. The development has been subpar with the young guys either not taking the next step or just flat out not being as good as expected. Finally, you can't just sign shiny new toys in free agency to fill roster spots, especially when they're expensive. Kane and Tarasenko need to be added later, and they need to fit in with that identity.
The reason the Devils got out of a lengthy rebuild is because they eventually checked off all of those boxes- build around the youth core, establish an identity as a fast team, and get vets who fit that mold. It hasn't been all perfect, and they had to retool with that identity this offseason, but it's safe to say that they are out of it. What steps have the Wings taken with any of that? The Yzerplan should have started with an identity and went from there.
Ive been a huge supporter of Yzerman crediting him with the Lightning mini dynasty, but holy hell DET looks bad. I think GM's underestimate the effect of location has on their ability to build a good hockey team. Unless you tank hard and get multiple 1OA's, its tough and even then tm doesnt always work. but not being able to attract FA's sucks.
Stewie Griffin
What the deuce
The one thing I've always found ironic to this is that the years they moved back in the lottery, were the years they ended up with Seider, Raymond, and Edvinsson. If they stayed where they were each of those years (and just having the same guys go in each spot) they would've ended up with Byram, Lafreniere, and Johnson. Sure they also could've had Jack Hughes and/or Tim Stutzle, but at the end of the day Detroit has been fine with lottery picks, it's the entire rest of roster building that people are questioning.
I think some Wings fan need to look in the mirror here. You wouldn't accept this from any GM if his name weren't Yzerman. We laugh at the Leafs for much less. And speaking of that, both them and the NY Rangers have done two rebuilds and come out of them after 4 years since the Wings last won the cup (or Zetterberg retired, whatever metric you want to use). You can only say Philadelphia is worse and you know what? They get worse crap on here.
This is not working. Some of it is the cap actually (that's for another day). But this team has been bad and already blew the Larkin/Mantha/Bertuzzi core. Something has to give.
This is not working. Some of it is the cap actually (that's for another day). But this team has been bad and already blew the Larkin/Mantha/Bertuzzi core. Something has to give.
And the Devils have had two 1st overalls, a 7th, a 4th and a 2nd.
Not sure that is a good comparison for Detroit. Perhaps more important, and I don't say this as a criticism, just a reality of how hard rebuilds are (and NJ has done great) but since Yzerman has been in Detroit, the Devils have made the playoffs......drumrolllllllllllllll - one time.
Also the idea that Detroit does not have prospects developing is just ignorance from HF Boards in general. SY does not care about HF Board's timeline expectations.
A Brief run down:
Most Important Prospects:
Simon Edvinsson - yeah he is not really a prospect anymore, but people who are not watching him play are not aware of how good he has been and his potential. There is an assumption because he played in Grand Rapids last year that he was somehow a disappointment or even a bust. Right now, I think he ends up better than Seider, but then I also think the current coaching staff has taken some bite out of MO's game.
Sebastian Cossa - Following up on a very good season in GR with an excellent start this year. Has the potential to be an elite game changing net minder. Many have sold him short based on a slow start in d+1 and the controversy/comparison s related to Jesper Wallstedt.
Axel Sandin-Pelika - Doing fantastic in the Swedish league. Offensive minded puck moving D and PP QB. There is a lot of hype, but to be clear he is not the second coming of Cale Makar, or Adam Fox. But he doesn't need to be. Able to play 22 minutes a night and be part of what should be a top tier Top 4 d-core.
Next Level Prospects:
Marco Kasper - One of the few bright starts in a frustrating start to the season. He is not lighting it up on the scoresheet, but playing well and even last night demonstrated a great release/shot. Expected to be a good 2/3 center, not a world beater but a very good contributor and may still surprise on the upside.
Nate Danielson - Playing well in his first pro season in Grand Rapids, getting good reviews from staff, Wings likes him quite a bit. Can be a very good 2C , with an upside potential approaching Dylan Larkin. That said he does need to keep developing.
Trey Augustine - Another top tier goal tending prospect. Had a great freshman year at Michigan State, off to a great sophomore start.
Should contribute, need to keep developing:
William Wallinder D - 2020 2nd round. Don't write him off because he is not yet in the NHL. Played 2 season in Swedish league, did not come over to Grand Rapids until last year. They are looking for him to take step up (with promotion of Edvinsson) this year, which he seemingly has done when healthy, but has some injury issues. Needs to keep developing, but if he reaches potential could round out a top 4 pairing anchored by Seider or Edvinsson or be a very good 5/6.
Carter Mazur LW - 2021 3rd round pick. Won't set the world on fire but has potential to be energy and "identity" guy in 3/4 role.
A little early yet but promising starts:
Dimitri Buchelnikov, LW - 2022 2nd round pick playing very well in KHL, has another year (after 24/25) on his KHL contract.
Jesse Kiiskinen, RW - 2023 3rd round pick (Nashville). Obtained along with 2nd round pick (to replace Wallman pick sent to SJ) for Red Wing 2023 2nd round D prospect Andrew Gibson. Kiiskinenen producing nearly a point a game in Finish league.
Misc:
Anton Johansson, D - 2022 4th round. (Not to be confused with AlJo on current roster), playing in the Swedish league, and got very good reviews last year, but haven't seen much on him this year, not sure where that might stand.
I would also keep an eye on Dylan James, LW - 2022 2nd round pick playing at North Dakota.
My personal belief is that Detroit ends up with excellent goaltending and a top tier top4 d-core. Upfront there will be a core of very good if not elite players. Will that be enough to contend?
They will likely need to add a big FA signing or trade to round out the roster to be at that level. Time will tell, but that is still several years away at best, and I am not sure how they are supposed to do it any different.
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norrisnick
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qc14
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While I agree with you about NJD maybe not proving quite as much as they get credit for as well as the prospect pool being good -- what NJD had which DET has not at all yet is any sort of "found money" or move that really paid off above expectations.
Where's their Jesper Bratt in the late rounds? Mercer at 18oa? Casey in the 2nd round? Hamilton in UFA? Even a Seigenthaler type that was being underutilized by an (at the time) contender?
A lot of this is luck, but the part that I do put direct blame on to Yzerman for is he doesn't seem like he's even trying to find these types of moves. It's all just so safe and uncreative. Every UFA signing is the exact same type of guy with maybe a more proven track record but a pretty set ceiling. Every trade is just a rental for a pick. Even their prospect pool is full of a lot of the same types of responsible centers with more limited offense and puck-moving defenseman.
I just don't understand why they weren't in on a Logan Thompson or Alex Holtz in the summer, or Liljegren after camp, or a Mantha in UFA.
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
While I agree that Yzerman has to do a better job with his 2nd round picks, I’m not sure that Nj is a great example of how to do it. For Mercer, they had a bust in Holtz. For Casey, they had a disappointing player in Nemec. I’d say NJs success is built on being given two first overall picks to get Hischier and Hughes, not on excellent overall drafting. Yzerman hasn’t missed on a 1st rounder yet - this is not a small feat.
Omar Little
Omar comin yo
Nemec disappointing? Lol. I guess Edvinsson was disappointing last year too seeing as he was in the AHL
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
Just basing it off the discussion I’ve seen on the player and the few games I’ve seen. Edvinsson has been better than Seider this year so not sure how that’s relevant. If Nemec has been better than Hughes and Hamilton this year too, I take it back.
qc14
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The point though is that while sure NJ has maybe missed on someone like Holtz, they have hit on picks that weren't expected to like Bratt or Casey or Mercer (or a UFA or trade acquisition like Seigenthaler). DET hasn't done that yet. Can't just always be doing everything at pace or expectation, there needs to be some sort of overperformance somewhere. Maybe that's Augustine or Mazur or someone else down the line, but as of right now it's no one. It's a real problem with Yzerman that there's not a single guy on the roster you can point to -- even if it's a third liner or a 4D -- and go "wow he really made a lot out of nothing there." An even bigger one to me that he doesn't seem that interested in even trying to find those kinds of guys.
Omar Little
Omar comin yo
There were certainly times he was better than Hughes last year. Hamilton being injured is why Nemec played so challenging to compare
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
I agree, I’m just saying that with NJ, the net effect is the same as hitting on a guy like Holtz. What really separated them from DET is not the late round drafting (as all that did was make up for some misses up top), but rather those 2 1st overalls they got.
qc14
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I think that's the biggest difference but NJ (and other recent jumps to "contenders" of varying degree such as CAR and VAN) have also been able to hit on additions (through draft, FA, and trades) to fill out the roster in a way DET absolutely has not -- I get Yzerman can't control the lottery balls but he can control who he signs as veteran depth defenseman, for example. Those parts don't drive a team like the top guys do but they add up
