When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Pavels Dog]

Yzerman has been good at identifying overagers and picking players who score a lot and should never have been available like Point and Kucherov. He's among the worst in the league at making a normal 2nd round pick which is the replicable part of drafting.

Okay, so his success outside the 1st round in Tampa doesn't matter because they weren't "normal draft picks"?
What is even going on in this thread.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Honestly, give it 2 more years, then it will begin. One of the goalies absolutely needs to turn into a monster in the NHL and the Seider/Edvinsson combo meal need to end up as dominant as promised. We know Raymond is a star but the other young forwards need to pan out as well.

Agreed. In order to rebuild the 'right way', you don't make any long-term reach FA signings to try and fast forward the rebuild. Yzerman has NOT done that, even if his place holder signings have sucked.

 

[SuperScript29]

My assessment of the Yzerplan so far is, let's talk at the end of the season.

 

[Zarzh]

Okay, so his success outside the 1st round in Tampa doesn't matter because they weren't "normal draft picks"?
What is even going on in this thread.

Well yeah, what's important is identifying talent, there usually won't be a player scoring at a historic or even very high rate in the late 2nd or early 3rd like Kucherov or Point. Yzerman picking a bunch of guys who don't score at a level expected to make the NHL makes them irrelevant to guys projected to be strong NHLers.

 

[NVious]

Honestly, give it 2 more years, then it will begin. One of the goalies absolutely needs to turn into a monster in the NHL and the Seider/Edvinsson combo meal need to end up as dominant as promised. We know Raymond is a star but the other young forwards need to pan out as well.

I agree with this, 7 years IMO is way more than enough time to build a decent team.

I said this in the Montreal vs Detroit thread, Moritz/Raymond are nice, but unless they take huge leaps (which they could, not saying they can't), they don't look like some massive game breakers, so they need more help. It comes down to his drafting. At 20-22, prospects (specifically forwards) need to be hitting their stride, so it'll come down to how he did with his other picks and later on in his first drafts.

It's tough because you don't want to turn into the Sabers who bottom out every year, but simultaneously you can't rush things either because unless you have top end talent, you won't compete in the league. Having a good 1D/good 1C or good goalie isn't enough, you need AT LEAST 3 amazing pieces to compete in the league and Yzerman's signings look like a man rushing the process. Sure they immediately made the team better taking them in the 7-10 range in the East, but they're nowhere near competing for a cup with the current core, nor have they been able to get the top end prospects they need to take the next step.

 

[Boxscore]

I agree with this, 7 years IMO is way more than enough time to build a decent team.

I said this in the Montreal vs Detroit thread, Moritz/Raymond are nice, but unless they take huge leaps (which they could, not saying they can't), they don't look like some massive game breakers, so they need more help. It comes down to his drafting. At 20-22, prospects (specifically forwards) need to be hitting their stride, so it'll come down to how he did with his other picks and later on in his first drafts.

It's tough because you don't want to turn into the Sabers who bottom out every year, but simultaneously you can't rush things either because unless you have top end talent, you won't compete in the league. Having a good 1D/good 1C or good goalie isn't enough, you need AT LEAST 3 amazing pieces to compete in the league and Yzerman's signings look like a man rushing the process. Sure they immediately made the team better taking them in the 7-10 range in the East, but they're nowhere near competing for a cup with the current core, nor have they been able to get the top end prospects they need to take the next step.

I think Seider and Raymond are legit franchise chips... not megastars like Pasta and Makar, but cornerstones. Larkin is the motor. DeBrincat is a talented little fellow, but I'm not sure if he's a staple.

I think one of Cossa or Augustine need to emerge as a young monster between the pipes... at least at a "healthy" Demko level. One of Edvinsson/ASP have to be a legit Robin to Seider's Batman... and the other has to be a real nice Top-4 D.

Then, at least 2 of the forwards need to reach their potential... be it Nygaard and Kasper perhaps.

The problem with the Wings is they tend to let their players marinate until they are fully stewed and this is problematic in a cap league when you need young talent to produce on the cheap. If you wait too long, you'll need to bridge the gap by overpaying mediocre depth players in salary and term... Wings can't go that route forever. Next year's camp is massive for them imho.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Of course the Wings aren’t built the same. Because all of their best players/prospects are 23 and under and outside of 3 aren’t even on the damn yet

You do realize that YOU would have been called crazy if you picked Pastrnak to be a top 10 forward when he was drafted… and then he became one …

You literally writing off forwards who are 22 years and under… including one who was drafted 4th overall, is above where Pastrnak was at the same age.


Because he’s starting to realize how poor his argument is and is wildly reaching at this point.

No he is not. Pastrnak was ahead of Raymond at age 22... Pasta was already playing NHL hockey at age 18, it's ok you might not remember it. Not only posting better PPG than Raymond in the same seasons you're comparing but also on lower scoring seasons.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Well yeah, what's important is identifying talent, there usually won't be a player scoring at a historic or even very high rate in the late 2nd or early 3rd like Kucherov or Point. Yzerman picking a bunch of guys who don't score at a level expected to make the NHL makes them irrelevant to guys projected to be strong NHLers.

You aren't making any sense. It's literally a completely illogical argument. If they were so easy to draft why didn't other teams?

These are non-1st round picks with Tampa with some measure of NHL success:

- Radko Gudas
- Ondrej Palat
- Nikita Kucherov
- Cedic Paquette
- Brayden Point
- Anthony Cirelli
- Mathieu Joseph
- Ross Colton
- Nick Perbix
- Taylor Raddysh
etc.

You're dismissing all of that because they all scored too much to be counted as normal?

 

[nbwingsfan]

No he is not. Pastrnak was ahead of Raymond at age 22... Pasta was already playing NHL hockey at age 18, it's ok you might not remember it. Not only posting better PPG than Raymond in the same seasons you're comparing but also on lower scoring seasons.

And Raymond was a full time player at 19, scoring over 50pts, unlike Pastrnak.

He also didn’t play exclusively with Marchand and Bergeron at 21

They’re very similar

 

[LarKing]

Yikes, please just remember it's a handful of Wings fans, and not the whole fan base, comparing Raymond to Seider, Seider as a top 5 RHD, etc in this thread

 

[Zarzh]

You aren't making any sense. It's literally a completely illogical argument. If they were so easy to draft why didn't other teams?

These are non-1st round picks with Tampa with some measure of NHL success:

- Radko Gudas
- Ondrej Palat
- Nikita Kucherov
- Cedic Paquette
- Brayden Point
- Anthony Cirelli
- Mathieu Joseph
- Ross Colton
- Nick Perbix
- Taylor Raddysh
etc.

You're dismissing all of that because they all scored too much to be counted as normal?

Bolded are double overagers that I mentioned before which aren't nothing but are clearly not being found now and yes to Point and Kucherov. Teams do dumb stuff all the time for political or reactionary reasons and it doesn't matter when you have a different process now and there's not much relevance when you only have one guy producing like a potential top 6.

You have a good 3rd liner, a decent defenseman, and some replacement level guys.

 

[who_me?]

Yzerman is the new Kevin Lowe

 

[kylek023]

win with 10 sog
YzerGod planned this

 

[Dotter]

10 SOG win and shutout. Gives them something to build on.

 

[Reality Check]

The newly revised Yzerplan goes as follows: Avoid The NY Rangers

 

[The Flying Octopus]

win with 10 sog
YzerGod planned this

It’s a 12 step process

 

[Pavels Dog]

Bolded are double overagers that I mentioned before which aren't nothing but are clearly not being found now and yes to Point and Kucherov. Teams do dumb stuff all the time for political or reactionary reasons and it doesn't matter when you have a different process now and there's not much relevance when you only have one guy producing like a potential top 6.

You have a good 3rd liner, a decent defenseman, and some replacement level guys.

Nonsensical. Do you have a single example of a "normal" good pick outside the 1st round?

 

[dirtydanglez]

is it really yzermans late round drafting success or is it tampas? that success hasn't followed in detroit.

 

[Peasy]

is it really yzermans late round drafting success or is it tampas? that success hasn't followed in detroit.

You would think people that frequent this site would know that a gm is likely to barely even know names in the draft past the first round.

And most later round slams are just luck. The player ends up developing way more than anyone ever thought.

Like Tampa even picked Namestnikov over Kucherov so they clearly ranked him above Kucherov at the time of the draft.

 

[Pavels Dog]

is it really yzermans late round drafting success or is it tampas? that success hasn't followed in detroit.

Calling the Tampa picks "not normal" is still ridiculous. I'm sure people will also spin the excellent looking 1st round picks with Detroit into somehow not being normal and therefore not counting.

 

[Ulysses31]

is it really yzermans late round drafting success or is it tampas? that success hasn't followed in detroit.

lil more time, some potential diamonds in the ruff, soderblom n lombardi for example

 

[Crunchy]

You would think people that frequent this site would know that a gm is likely to barely even know names in the draft past the first round.

Yzerman is well documented in his affinity for Brayden Point before he and Al Murray drafted him in the 3rd round. And with Detroit he's spotted in rinks across the world several times a year scouting amateurs.

He certainly isn't making Detroit's late picks himself, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that he, on occasion, knows some names in the draft past the first.

 

[pabst blue ribbon]

The year that Tampa selected Point with the #89 pick they had two second round picks at #35 and #57. Those two picks have combined for zero NHL games. If Tampa's scouting staff really believed in the player Point was going to become I doubt they would've risked using a middle 3rd round pick when they had two second picks that turned into nothing. The draft, especially past the first round is more of an art than it is a hard science

 

[newfy]

is it really yzermans late round drafting success or is it tampas? that success hasn't followed in detroit.

Yzerman has been in Detroit for 5 years, do you think maybe when talking about later round picks you should give them time to develop before really judging? They have plenty of later round picks that look really good at lower levels, hence their prospect pool being so highly ranked.

Maybe we should wait before saying no late round drafting success has followed him

The year that Tampa selected Point with the #89 pick they had two second round picks at #35 and #57. Those two picks have combined for zero NHL games. If Tampa's scouting staff really believed in the player Point was going to become I doubt they would've risked using a middle 3rd round pick when they had two second picks that turned into nothing. The draft, especially past the first round is more of an art than it is a hard science

I also think a somewhat large part of drafting isn't the actual players that are drafted but the development system of teams, and I think that's way more attributed to the organisation that a gm creates.

You draft players with specific qualities in the later rounds and focus on developing them, you'll end up with NHL players. That's more the art part of it, moreso than just luck. There's a reason some teams seem to consistently outdraft others

 

[Zarzh]

Nonsensical. Do you have a single example of a "normal" good pick outside the 1st round?

Funnily enough Holland was actually pretty good at that. Hronek was a great one that's easy to point to, so is Bertuzzi. Around the league an easy guy to point to is Kyrou or even someone like Foegele, plus a handful of defensive defenseman like McNabb.