When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Ted Hoffman]

So I’ll ask again here:

Are you saying he should have traded Zadina for a haul? How could he have done so if he sucked? How is getting maybe like a 6th any better than seeing if he finds his game?

While I wouldn't use "Zadina sucks" in any justification for what to do with Yzerman, I do want to talk about the general idea of "moving from a player who's showing signs of crapping out."

Sometimes, a guy shows those signs early and you're trying to decide if it's "he needs more work and it'll all eventually unlock" or "no, he really does suck." I was an advocate of the Blues moving on from Jake Allen and Patrik Berglund as early as 2010 and 2011 respectively: I thought Allen would always be unreliable in pressure situations, I thought Berglund would stall out in production and land in the 20-20-40 range and struggle to hold a top-6 spot. I wanted the Blues to unload Jordan Schmaltz from the moment they drafted him. I knew by late 2009 that David Rundblad had issues and the Blues needed to dump him ASAP. Same for Ty Rattie circa 2014, when he was putting up 31 goals for the Chicago Wolves but not "getting it."

Of course, I also wanted to dump Jake Neighbours from the moment he drafted, and I'll concede after repeatedly getting put up with top guys and getting spoon-fed chances he appears to have finally "gotten it" with 26 goals this season. [I'm hoping it's not a 1-time thing.] Everyone misses projections at some point.

If you're going to throw in the towel on a prospect early, your hope is "no one else is seeing what you do." That's easier said than done. Sure, there might be someone out there wanting your prospect you see failing; cutting loose a 1st-round pick, especially a high 1st-round pick, for a [sometimes much] lower pick is a really unpopular move. It's even more unpopular - and can be a job killer - if that guy goes to another team and "gets it" and becomes the star you picked him to be. There's also a very real sunk cost fallacy with high picks: you invested 6OA, 8OA, 13OA into the guy, you don't want to admit that was a terrible call, let's salvage something out of it because of internal and external pressure. But, I think when that moment comes you need to try and salvage something if you can and hope you're really leaving the next guy holding the bag.

That said, IMO when someone is looking to fire a GM and he didn't trade [guy picked high in the draft] who was a bust is one of the justifications, you're reaching for reasons and you should be able to find more prominent things than this.

 

[Stony Curtis]

I wouldn't want to be a team member on a long-term project with a lot of people in this thread.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sorry, I didn't read your long post. I kept nodding off when I tried and it didn't make any sense to reality.

The Zadina zinger was near the top of your manifesto, so I picked that one for a rebuttal. Jesus turned water into wine, but Yzerman failed to change Zadina into a 1st... officially proving Yzerman is, in fact, not Jesus!

Cherry picking an out of context line about Zadina (that was about the GM properly assessing the team during his tenure) to ignore the broader points tells me you’re too emotionally invested to have this conversation in the thread title. I suppose that’s the issue with hiring franchise legends for important front office roles.

 

[Osakahaus]

so this long term project has given them a very meh set of players and a defenseman who's become incredibly overrated. Don't get me wrong I like Mo Seider but he is incredibly overrated even by Red Wing standards.

Are they gonna make the playoffs? Sure I think they will. But I don't think they're a great team yet, and we really have to see progression out of Cossa and other picks. When are we going to see their center core grow? when will they get a proven #1 centerman? Larkin's the wagon on this horse and he's getting shot down too much.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

I wouldn't want to be a team member on a long-term project with a lot of people in this thread.

How many NHL teams give a free pass to their GM for 10 years? Yzerman only gets it due to his past relationship with the team.

 

[FMichael]

Disappointed? Sure. Devastated? Nope.

Everyone knew going in it wasn't their year in the sense of 'contending' . They're a bubble team on the rise. Playing competitive hockey right now is part of the process at building a winning culture.

It's been delightful witnessing the upswing and watching their exciting prospects flourish. Gotta learn to walk before run.

True - however the majority of this current Detroit Red Wings roster is made up of trades/UFAs that are 26 plus years of age…Outside of a few players this is a vet loaded team…Their ‘yo yo’ up and down the standings is on both the players and coaching staff alike.

 

[FMichael]

How many NHL teams give a free pass to their GM for 10 years? Yzerman only gets it due to his past relationship with the team.

True - however you forgot to mention how he acquired an AHL caliber roster and has had zero lottery luck since he took over…That’s sorta important.

Also this is Yzerman’s 5th season as GM…

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

True - however you forgot to mention how he acquired an AHL caliber roster and has had zero lottery luck since he took over…That’s sorta important.

Also this is Yzerman’s 5th season as GM…

I wager most other GM's would be fired at this point, but Yzerman gets another 5 years to play out his vision...he has plenty of rope to burn due to his relationship.

 

[FMichael]

Cherry picking an out of context line about Zadina (that was about the GM properly assessing the team during his tenure) to ignore the broader points tells me you’re too emotionally invested to have this conversation in the thread title. I suppose that’s the issue with hiring franchise legends for important front office roles.

Just for the record Yzerman didn’t draft Zadina - Holland had.

 

[Ruggs225]

The biggest problem with Detroits rebuild was never winning draft lottery.

Really derailed the yzerplan.

 

[FMichael]

I wager most other GM's would be fired at this point, but Yzerman gets another 5 years to play out his vision...he has plenty of rope to burn due to his relationship.

Again - your not wrong, but I believe many nonWings fans fail to understand how bad this team was and with no draft lottery luck will only lengthen the rebuild since there’ll be no ‘generational talent’ on this roster.

 

[SirloinUB]

Yzerman inherited a mess and has done solid work improving both the current team and the prospect system.

He Still lots of work to do but I don’t know how one could realistically expect the team to be further along. It certainly could be going much worse.

 

[FMichael]

The biggest problem with Detroits rebuild was never winning draft lottery.

Really derailed the yzerplan.

While it doesn’t guarantee success and Cups - having some high end talent really does help.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Again - your not wrong, but I believe many nonWings fans fail to understand how bad this team was and with no draft lottery luck will only lengthen the rebuild since there’ll be no ‘generational talent’ on this roster.

Also, I am not saying that is the wrong approach for a team to rebuild...maybe all teams should be more lenient and give more time for their GM's to play out their vision. I am just stating what is the norm across the NHL currently for GM's expectations and tenure.

 

[FMichael]

Also, I am not saying that is the wrong approach for a team to rebuild...maybe all teams should be more lenient and give more time for their GM's to play out their vision. I am just stating what is the norm across the NHL currently for GM's expectations and tenure.

Every team mgt/ownership group has different ideas of how to build a winner - makes for interesting conversations…Instead of relying upon the lottery and risk being a floor mat for several more seasons - Yzerman has acquired a fair number of prospects and signed UFAs with the hope that these vets teach the kids the ropes for NHL success…Right now that rope has an odd shape to it…

 

[StreetHawk]

Also, I am not saying that is the wrong approach for a team to rebuild...maybe all teams should be more lenient and give more time for their GM's to play out their vision. I am just stating what is the norm across the NHL currently for GM's expectations and tenure.

Wings were "bottom 5" bad for like 3 seasons from 2019-2021.

From those drafts, only J. Hughes is a game changing player. For now Stutzle is the next best player.
The other top 2-4 picks were Kakko, Dach Byram, Laf, Byfield, Stutzle, Power, Beniers, McTavish, L. Hughes.
Seider, Raymond, Evindsson is what Detroit got out of those 3 drafts.

And the 2022 draft is Slaf, Nemec, Cooley, Wright in the bottom 4.

Yzerman arrived and gave the final couple of drafted Holland players a shot. Zadina, Veleno, Lindstrom, Hronek, Chlorowski, Rasmussen a shot. Think in the end, he only keeps Rasmussen. Maybe the only main criticism is that Yzerman didn't sell Mantha, Bertuzzi, earlier.

 

[nbwingsfan]

How many NHL teams give a free pass to their GM for 10 years? Yzerman only gets it due to his past relationship with the team.

You know he hasn’t been around 10 years, ya?

 

[sxvnert]

The intent with loading up on vets is to make the post season. If the Wings fail (in one of the easiest seasons to qualify) then yes Yzer should be criticized.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Wings were "bottom 5" bad for like 3 seasons from 2019-2021.

From those drafts, only J. Hughes is a game changing player. For now Stutzle is the next best player.
The other top 2-4 picks were Kakko, Dach Byram, Laf, Byfield, Stutzle, Power, Beniers, McTavish, L. Hughes.
Seider, Raymond, Evindsson is what Detroit got out of those 3 drafts.

And the 2022 draft is Slaf, Nemec, Cooley, Wright in the bottom 4.

Yzerman arrived and gave the final couple of drafted Holland players a shot. Zadina, Veleno, Lindstrom, Hronek, Chlorowski, Rasmussen a shot. Think in the end, he only keeps Rasmussen. Maybe the only main criticism is that Yzerman didn't sell Mantha, Bertuzzi, earlier.

Mantha was traded 1.5 years after Yzerman took over, was traded for what was seen as a steal at the time before Vrana became what he became and the 2021 version of Mantha sure wasn’t keeping us up higher in the standings. Not sure what trading him earlier would have accomplished?


Bertuzzi yeah he could have traded him after his one big season and before he spent the majority of the next season injured, but how much more would he have realistically got than a 1st he already received? And again he spent most of the year he was traded injured, so he wasn’t helping us up further in the standings

I wager most other GM's would be fired at this point, but Yzerman gets another 5 years to play out his vision...he has plenty of rope to burn due to his relationship.

Why would a GM be fired when the team has incrementally improved each and every season since he took over the worst roster in the NHL with exactly ZERO impact prospects on the way, had zero top 3 picks and may make the playoffs this season?


You keep repeating this, but please give us your reasons

 

[Pavels Dog]

How many NHL teams give a free pass to their GM for 10 years? Yzerman only gets it due to his past relationship with the team.

*posts in a 37 page long hate-fest on Yzerman*

"HEY GUYS WHY DOES EVERYONE GIVE YZERMAN A FREE PASS???"

 

[dekelikekocur]

The intent with loading up on vets is to make the post season. If the Wings fail (in one of the easiest seasons to qualify) then yes Yzer should be criticized.

The intent of signing UFAs was to have stop gaps, make the salary floor and insulate the kids. None of the signings were otherworld occurrences and create a minimum bar for the kids to exceed to make the team. Literally Yzerman's own words were, incremental improvements, there was no intent to make the playoffs this year or last, but to play meaningful games further into the year.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

*posts in a 37 page long hate-fest on Yzerman*

"HEY GUYS WHY DOES EVERYONE GIVE YZERMAN A FREE PASS???"

There's "no-hate"...just trying to break through the nepotism with rational thinking.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The intent with loading up on vets is to make the post season. If the Wings fail (in one of the easiest seasons to qualify) then yes Yzer should be criticized.

He would have been criticized to no end if he threw a bunch of rookies onto the team and they were bottom 10 again. I don't think there's a path, except some kind of miraculous cup run, that wouldn't lead to casual observers finding something to complain about.

 

[Sweetpotato]

May have mentioned it in the thread but I truely believe Yzerman got pressured to turn the corner the first off season he went hunting in FA in 2022. They needed to bottom out 1 or 2 more years as they hadn't gotten THAT guy upfront. Just imagine how different their complexion would be with Bedard, Fantilli, Carlsson or Michkov.

 

[izlez]

Not winning the draft lottery really doesn't have anything to do with it.

Today's team likely isn't any better with Hughes instead of Seider.
Today's team likely isn't any better with Lafreniere instead of Raymond.

Power instead of Edvinsson would probably make a small difference, but we wouldn't be contenders today.
Slafkovsky is coming around, but we wouldn't suddenly be contenders today with him.

There's a reason most of these teams with these players are out of the playoffs. These are still children as far as the NHL goes. Quite simply, not enough time has passed. Building through the draft takes time. If other organizations don't want to give their GM's enough time to draft and build in a sustainable way, I think that's a bad thing and that's on them.