When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

He had Hedman and Stamkos in the door when he walked into TB. Detroit had no one on that level when he walked in the door. I'm not even his biggest fan but Holland left Detroit in expansion roster level form when he left, it was always going to take a long ass time for Detroit to rebuild + they don't have the best lottery luck granted you can argue they got the 2nd best player in every draft they dropped in regardless.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Whatcha smokin'? MTL and Jackets were drafting top 3 before Yzerman even came to Detroit.

On top of that, the Red Wings hadn't had a single pick in the top 10 between 1991 and 2017, so there wasn't any value from a failed rebuild to sell off to jumpstart the next one, like those teams had. It was just the ruins of a nearly three decade long playoff streak.

 

[majormajor]

I was fully on board that it would take a while to rebuild value from scratch - but folks shouldn't let the starting situation provide cover for objectively bad decisions. The Wings have a shitty defense because Yzerman keeps bringing in shitty d-men, and trading away better ones like Hronek and Walman. Chiarot, Petry, Holl, Gustafsson - this is a murderer's row of bad D-men.

 

[Dotter]

I was fully on board that it would take a while to rebuild value from scratch - but folks shouldn't let the starting situation provide cover for objectively bad decisions. The Wings have a shitty defense because Yzerman keeps bringing in shitty d-men, and trading away better ones like Hronek and Walman. Chiarot, Petry, Holl, Gustafsson - this is a murderer's row of bad D-men.

Do you know the story behind Hronek and Walman and why they were traded?

 

[ItWasJustified]

Yzerman didn’t approve the TikTok scrolling, video games, sneaker collection or the griddy

A self respecting man shouldn't approve any of those things, except for video games in a moderate amount.

 

[ricky0034]

A self respecting man shouldn't approve any of those things, except for video games in a moderate amount.

this is why Yzerman was right to pay to get rid of Walman and why I immediately set fire to any room I happen to be in if I find myself in the presence of a man that has any shoes at all, it's dangerous and will probably claim my own life one of these days but it's worth it to make them go away

 

[ItWasJustified]

this is why Yzerman was right to pay to get rid of Walman and why I immediately set fire to any room I happen to be in if I find myself in the presence of a man that has any shoes at all, it's dangerous and will probably claim my own life one of these days but it's worth it to make them go away

Good man.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

A self respecting man shouldn't approve any of those things, except for video games in a moderate amount.

Collecting sneakers if you know what you’re doing is one of the most lucrative things you could invest in over the last 30-40 years

 

[Bigtrout]

Whatcha smokin'? MTL and Jackets were drafting top 3 before Yzerman even came to Detroit.

Montreal has 4 series win and a scf since the Wings last made the playoffs? Pretty similar for Columbus, you're saying they had a headstart in their rebuild?

 

[PaulD]

4 years?

He started in 2019……. This is starting to be the end of year 6 for him& they already had their 1C in the system when he came in

It’s always excuses excuses excuses with him

This WC race is pathetic and they are still struggling to get in

Columbus& Montreal started their rebuilds years later than Detroit and are right there already with Detroit with better looking futures

"They are right there with them"
But of the three Yzerman should get the pitchfork? The other two are considered a success are they.
ha! If ya don't like Yzerman just say so..

 

[Super Hans]

Collecting sneakers if you know what you’re doing is one of the most lucrative things you could invest in over the last 30-40 years

and correlates with the rise of foot fetishism

 

[Beezeral]

Montreal has 4 series win and a scf since the Wings last made the playoffs? Pretty similar for Columbus, you're saying they had a headstart in their rebuild?

3 of those series wins and the SCF appearance came in one of the flukiest seasons of all time.

 

[Doom Bot]

3 of those series wins and the SCF appearance came in one of the flukiest seasons of all time.

7 series wins since DRW last won a series if you prefer that. Definitely neither team is worth bragging about but one is slightly less embarrassing. Bedard was like 5 years old when they last won a round.

 

[Dotter]

Montreal has 4 series win and a scf since the Wings last made the playoffs? Pretty similar for Columbus, you're saying they had a headstart in their rebuild?

I'm saying the title of this thread is about "Yzerman", he didn't become GM until 2019. MTL and Jackets both drafted top 3 just a few years prior to when Yzerman was hired.

Everyone agrees KH botched the first "rebuild" attempt. Everyone also agrees Yzerman had to take his first 2 or 3 years as GM just to clean up KH's mess. That's the cards Yzerman was dealt, and people who follow the DRWs understand he was put in a bad situation to start.

The very first thing he did in his first 2 years was stop the bleeding.

 

[Pavels Dog]

This WC race is pathetic and they are still struggling to get in

Since January 1st:

Pts%
5. NYR
6. NYI
7. CBJ
10. DET
15. MTL
17. OTT

Pathetic? I'd love to see what you think a non-pathetic WC race looks like? 10 teams on a 120 point pace?

 

[nbwingsfan]

I was fully on board that it would take a while to rebuild value from scratch - but folks shouldn't let the starting situation provide cover for objectively bad decisions. The Wings have a shitty defense because Yzerman keeps bringing in shitty d-men, and trading away better ones like Hronek and Walman. Chiarot, Petry, Holl, Gustafsson - this is a murderer's row of bad D-men.

No problem with the Hronek trade for now as it landed us ASP… but the Walman one will continue to be such a head scratcher.

He’s not great, but infinitely better than all but 2 of our D.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Montreal has 4 series win and a scf since the Wings last made the playoffs? Pretty similar for Columbus, you're saying they had a headstart in their rebuild?

When Detroit missed the playoffs in 2016-17, it was the first time they had missed since 1989-90. That takes much longer to recover from than coming up short on the last rebuild and tearing it down to try to start over.

And the Habs needed special Covid rules to even make the playoffs, so let's not pretend that's actually because of the rebuild.

 

[Pavels Dog]

No problem with the Hronek trade for now as it landed us ASP… but the Walman one will continue to be such a head scratcher.

He’s not great, but infinitely better than all but 2 of our D.

It was a bad value trade, but he's also on his 4th team in 3 years.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Montreal has 4 series win and a scf since the Wings last made the playoffs? Pretty similar for Columbus, you're saying they had a headstart in their rebuild?

A Part of me believes the Habs were always as bad as they currently are, but it was masked by Carey Price being a legendary goalie on an abysmal team.

But Roster construction between yzerplan RW and BargainBin / Gainey Habs is pretty similar.

Remember #1C Pleckanec and #2C Desharnais flanked by captain/leading scorer Paccioretty?

 

[SlapJack]

I think Yzerman took the old Red Wing approach of insulating youth and tried to apply it in the here and now. But instead of already having a star studded corps that would also get accentuated with big name free agents enabling them to slow bake their youth in the minors until they were really mature, he went out and got middling vets, also restricted by the salary cap. And the chances of getting a Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the late rounds don't happen often.

Of course you don't want to throw rookies out there to get caved on a nightly basis, but now they're in that middle ground where they don't suck and can't get premium draft picks, but not good enough to compete for the playoffs in a 32 team league.

I'll go on the record now and say they are not making the playoffs this year either - absolutely no way, barring a miracle. The schedule is really tough on them to close out the season; would have been very difficult if they were sitting in a playoff spot at the moment and they are not.

He has given them a great cornerstone for the future with Seider and Edvinsson. If Cossa works out, it's the best way to build a team - from behind the blue line. And there's some nice pieces to work with on top of that. Just need to hit on a few more draft picks over the next couple of years, but that's harder to do outside of the top 10.

And you CAN be a good GM but still unlucky. Boston got Pastrnak and McAvoy in the 2nd half of the first round so obviously they are monsters at the draft table, and that helped them continue being a solid team for years. But then look at their 1st round in between those years and uhhhh...maybe they're not that bright?

Anyway, things change fast in the NHL, as is clearly evident in this thread. It'll keep swinging for Detroit for the next while though

 

[Pavels Dog]

but not good enough to compete for the playoffs in a 32 team league.

But they're literally competing for the playoffs. Both last year and this.

they don't suck and can't get premium draft picks

Also if they actually continue to struggle the rest of the season top ~5-7 draft odds aren't off the table considering how close the standings are.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The study I don’t have like freely at my fingertips to link broke down the situation well. If I can recall it I’ll edit and provide that source but it’s something I read last year….

It is not simply the tax rate and that oversimplifies too far. Players care about their individual effective tax rate not the general statewide percentage. it is the combination of things one can withhold, and to be honest, a bunch of tax stuff I didn’t care to really read apart from looking at it and thinking okay that makes sense. High net worth taxation is not the same as traditional income level earners. They broke down specific active players and showed that it’s roughly a 10-12% difference. They compared multiple players to different tax environments. Not all were equally bad but on average the gap is substantial, based on the study. I’ll try to dig it up.

I believe this is the group that had the study but I don’t see the specific study. Instead, here’s a robust calculator that does even more than a study. It appears Detroit to Dallas is a 7% swing, so you were closer than I was. Still, if you’re simultaneously attracting the best talent and getting it 7% off…that’s broken imo. If you pick Toronto and a no tax team it’s like 15%. Kinda wouldn’t be down with this if I were the leafs.

Canadian teams already face exchange rate headwinds. It’s going to damage the nhl to give these Canadian groups such opposition to success. As the salary cap rises the impact of exchange rate challenges grows with it. To have these teams also really challenged to be competitive is bad. Detroit doesn’t have it as bad but to me it’s negligible how undesirable some place could be so long as a group of places maintain the significant advantage. 5% is about as bad as 10% is about as bad as 15 - once youre in the bad group you’re passed over no matter how bad it is - until enough talent has filled the slots in those beneficial areas, the you and the other 26 are picking through the scraps and paying more for them, some paying much more; others just a little more…. A terrible system that doesn’t appear to be sustainable.

Tax Calculator - Cardinal Point

Athlete Advisors

cardinalpointathleteadvisors.com

Cut all your % numbers in half, as teams play half their games on the road.

 

[Fatass]

When you take an absolutely horrible team and you want to turn it into a serious Stanley Cup contender, it typically takes longer than 4 years. I mean even if you draft a great D man, Centre, and Goalie, they are barely ready to contribute in 4 years. There are some quick turnarounds, but most fall short. In my opinion, to be a real cup contender you need two really good Centers, a number one and two D man and a good supporting cast. Not to mention a good starting goalie. That takes a lot of high draft picks plus a lot of luck to accumulate, and more than 4 years to marinate. So long as Yzerman is accumulating blue chip prospects at a solid rate and is leveraging his cap space for more assets, you shouldn’t be calling for his head because that’s the kind of progress you should be seeing.

True to a point. Yes, Cup winner tend to have those pieces. But how they get them isn’t always through the draft. Trades and UFA signings also bring in key core players, especially recently with Florida and Vegas.

 

[StlBigFly]

nvm

 

[Golden_Jet]

I’m not sure.

If you have the experience to correct me I’m down for that.

A source I reference is Andrew McCutchen’s paystub (you can google if you want to see it). Somebody found it and put it online. Then people discussed it, and people who acted like they are smart said:

Players state of residence taxes their entire income. Doesn’t matter where you are in the world; if you made money the state is getting theirs.

When players play elsewhere they’re taxed then too.

I’m not an accountant to know whether one of those tax events can be a write off for the other.

And the McCutchen paystub matches. Pennsylvania hits him up for the whole thing but then you can see the other places he plays coming and grabbing some too.

Also holy hell they get after these dudes for money. There’s like more than a dozen taxes taken from his pay.

Players pay tax, in the state each game is played in, they don’t get double dipped.

The paystub is for 2 weeks, and reflects this, also shows taxes he’s paid in each state YTD, doesn’t show he was taxed in his home state for every game.

There are other factors obviously as well. Marner pays much more taxes than Matthews for example, as long as Matthews isn’t in Canada for 1/2 year less a day.