When did you know it was over for this group?

[leafs in five]

Have you soon Dubas? Guy exudes soy.

I soon him yeah

 

[Deuce Awesome]

When Dubas was given the keys.

I remember the Kessel years when we had nothing, like literally nothing, good going on.

Now? We have one of the "best" top 6's in the NHL on paper eating up 90% of our salary, an average at best D corp, and a bottom six off the scrap heap.

How do you not make a quantity for quality trade and address those needs?

The Kadri deal could have been that, instead we just got another offence first defenceman and a very average third liner.


Its like we just cant win

 

[notDatsyuk]

When I heard that the Tavares signing was confirmed.

 

[notDatsyuk]

In hindsight, JT's return to long Island showed us everything about this core and the state of the team

They knew they were going into enemy territory, they knew the fans would be all over him and this is something they should rally around. Yet they were limp, had no fight, no passion or desire to outwork the opposition

Instead we celebrated "John Tavares day" and gave him a standing ovation his next home game. So f***ing soft

I think that game in NY and the "John Tavares Day" are just symptoms of the real problem.

The Tavares signing was supposed to be the huge event that finally brought us the Cup. Every time it becomes apparent that he isn't what they thought, they double down on the hype, and try to find a way to hide the smell.

Similar to the Kessel and Phaneuf deals, bringing in a big name despite the fact that it wasn't what the team really needed, and then continually trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

 

[notDatsyuk]

When they preferred Dumbass over Lou. Lou had his faults but he would not have been bent over by Nylander, Marner and Matthews.

That was probably the turning point, although I didn't realize it at the time. Lou taking two of our better bottom 6 players didn't help, but the Tavares signing was the backbreaker.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Honestly, once Dubas took over and paid these guys big money. The Kadri trade and Tavares signing was the final nail

Actually, the Tavares signing came first, then the other big contracts, then the Kadri trade.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I feel like I haven't felt the same since the Montreal loss. Before that, I vehemently defended Dubas and the core.

I don't see anything resembling a Cup champion any more.

 

[therealkoho]

For me it was the second that Leafs announced they were turning the reigns of the organization to green horn GM Kyle Dubas..

They were coming off a franchise record setting 105 points after being dead last a couple of years earlier and everything was looking great with all the young players and top draft picks in the organization.

Shanahan after relying of vets Babcock and Lou Lam to dig this franchise out of dumps after missing playoffs 10 of previous 11 seasons and restoring it to respectability and the playoffs again.

Rookie President hires a rookie GM .. What could possible go wrong?

don't disagree her Mess, the Dubas draft decisions are somewhat baffling for the most part, although the Leafs PR people have done a great job selling the fanbase that even though they tossed away all those 1st rounders for the most part "look at all the sexy 2nd round picks!"

I'm in no way saying you can't find good players in the 2nd round, but if you're going to use 1st rounders to sweeten deals it has to be sparingly and if at all possible you should not trade any other picks when and if you do.

 

[cupcrazyman2]

When they hired a stick boy/dressing room attendant as their general manager.

I hear he's from the Soo. lol

 

[therealkoho]

As much as JT has been a valuable asset for a second line centre position, paying him 11 million set precedent for these selfish rookies to aim towards a certain value to be paid. This spiralled into us having to offload Kadri for being the only one with heart and compete on this team. Then we started bleeding some of our best homegrown, two way hardworking talent in players like Connor Brown and Zach Hyman, developed internally alongside plenty of others (Moore, Grundstrum, Durzi etc.)

We committed to a core who not only is still naive and immature in the way they play, but has barely made strides in maturing themselves to what made those players like Brown, Hyman and Kadri effective players back then and especially now.

This core of the leafs just don't have the driving force and if they can't muster it up 7 years later its not fault of our coaches as much as it just poor character evaluations by our president and GM. No doubt the biggest concern are these players, but those who write their paychecks have been there every step of the way encouraging their mediocrity.

That contract was structered specifically to set the bar of a payscale in Toronto, Johnny Captain was supposed to be the highest paid Leaf until either his contract ran out or they won a SC.

People always want to blame Marner just because Dreger led the tweeter band making Paul Marner and his son the villains of the piece. The reality is that 8 months before that Matthews walked in and bent Dubas over, the money in my mind wasn't a problem if he had signed for 8 years, but he didn't and as we all know the term is the problem.

No one is ever going to convince me that Matthews hadn't already decided he wasn't a Leaf for life, no matter how many times he says Toronto is home, and other than walking into straight into UFA there is a reason he demanded 5 years and no longer, as heads up CapFriendly is where you'll find the answer's.

Marner however grudgingly accepted 97k less than Tavares however symbolically you see it as it's still less, Matthews on the other hand basically just said, piss on that I'm here for me!

 

[Dekes For Days]

No one is ever going to convince me that Matthews hadn't already decided he wasn't a Leaf for life, no matter how many times he says Toronto is home, and other than walking into straight into UFA there is a reason he demanded 5 years and no longer

He didn't demand 5 years and no longer. He was open to different terms, and the team and him agreed on 5 years (the most common post-ELC term for a player of his caliber) in order to have the cap space to keep everybody together and build around them. Had nothing to do with wanting to leave. Nothing has ever indicated a desire to leave.

 

[BigGulpsEh]

Habs series.

Nail in the coffin that managment, coach and core players are the wrong mix to contend for a cup

 

[Rude Dog]

Captain's first game back to the Island.

That's when the baby pukes ran and hid, leaving their captain to hang.

Never really thought of this...but this really was a true indication of their internal compete level. Similar when they went back into Detroit with Babcock whom they liked at the time. Similar blood bath if I remember correctly. That Boston series wasn't far behind, when only one guy wouldn't take the B's BS (as controversial as it was). At least he had a backbone.

For the record, I don't think its over. But my expectations are a tenth of what they once were.

 

[Rude Dog]

Ditto

The minute I heard Dubas had signed Tavares for $11 mil I knew Leafs would be in trouble by predicting Leafs internal Salary Cap would now see Matthews and Marner get similar deals ..

My prediction at that time, believing JT contract would act like a magnet and draw others to him and Leafs having 3 players all at double digit cap figures.

Matthews @ $12 mil X 8 years ???
Tavares @ $11 mil X 7 years
Marner @ $10 mil X 8 years ???
Nylander @ $7 mil X 6 years ???

I believed then as I do to this day that you can't invest that much cap in so few players to be Cup competitive.

When Dubas claimed "We can and We will" ... I agreed, but unlike the GM I thought it was recipe for disaster and this would make winning in the playoffs difficult.

Too lazy to go back in time, but I have a hard time believing there were too many upset Leaf fans that july 1st. If there were, they were certainly in the minority. Rear view mirror stuff.

 

[therealkoho]

He didn't demand 5 years and no longer. He was open to different terms, and the team and him agreed on 5 years (the most common post-ELC term for a player of his caliber) in order to have the cap space to keep everybody together and build around them. Had nothing to do with wanting to leave. Nothing has ever indicated a desire to leave.

sure I'm down for the original explanation, thats feel good pap

but there aren't too many GM's who walked a player of his caliber to the door of UFA with a 5 year deal nor are there many players of his caliber, Stamkos + Hedman I guess both went the 5 year route theres a short list below of players with superstar pedigree


Draisatil 3 and 8 yrs
McJeebuzz 3 and 8 yrs
RNH 6 yrs and then 7yrs
Sergachev 3 and 8 yrs
Kucherov 3, 3 then 8
Barkov 3, 6 and 8
M Tkachuk 3, 3 and 8
McAvoy 3, 3 and 8
Rantanen 3 and 8
MacKinnon 3, 7 and 8
Makar 3 and 6
Kane and Toews 3, 5 and 8 for the real big dough, but they won a couple of SC's

 

[fancy lad]

When i heard the Hits stat in the game v Pittsburgh i actually didn't believe it.

41-14?

I've since gone through a bunch more games checking that stat and every game i checked, even the games we won, we have been pretty badly out hit. Even that boston game where pretty much everyone was raving post game, we were badly outhit.

f*** off with that. We'll never be a legit contender until that changes.

 

[Dekes For Days]

but there aren't too many GM's who walked a player of his caliber to the door of UFA with a 5 year deal

Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews, Getzlaf, Perry, Kovalchuk, Nash, Aho, Bergeron, Kessel, etc.

There are in fact a ton of GMs who gave out 5-year post-ELC contracts to their young, high-end stars. A 5 year term has been the most common term for top-end post-ELC contracts.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We'll never be a legit contender until that changes.

Yeah, just like Colorado! They'll never win!

 

[fancy lad]

Yeah, just like Colorado! They'll never win!

sorry i guess i don't follow the rest of the league that closely, but were colorado constantly being outhit and outmuscled all while relying on a one sided finesse game plan last season?

 

[Dekes For Days]

sorry i guess i don't follow the rest of the league that closely, but were colorado constantly being outhit and outmuscled all while relying on a one sided finesse game plan last season?

Yes, Colorado was essentially tied with us in hits last season, and are hitting less than us this season, because they are also a very good team that focuses on puck possession.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

When i heard the Hits stat in the game v Pittsburgh i actually didn't believe it.

41-14?

I've since gone through a bunch more games checking that stat and every game i checked, even the games we won, we have been pretty badly out hit. Even that boston game where pretty much everyone was raving post game, we were badly outhit.

f*** off with that. We'll never be a legit contender until that changes.

Ya, let's chase the puck more!

Could the Leafs hit more, yes absolutely, but your post is complete nonsense.

 

[fancy lad]

That's cool that you guys are are up on your analytics puck possession and all that. Obviously it's important, but it really doesn't tell the whole story of how a game of hockey plays out.

It's kind like someone saying "of course a team gets outhit when they focus on puck posession, duh that's the gameplan". again it's one factor of many factors.

And none of this change the fact that this team is soft. it sounds like you guys are celebrating that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Bump, just for the shizzles.

 

[Fogelhund]

The right move is trade Marner.

There are a lot of great quotables in this thread for sure.

 

[Maple Leaf]

maybe when they win a round