When are we going to be honest with ourselves about how bad Kyle Dubas is?

[PaulD]

That's why the Penguins got him for 3 cap dumps and a 1st.

That being said, the Karlsson deal ended up terrible because it seems like Karlsson is a "good player on a bad team" type of player. He can't be effective playing within a structure and needs to be allowed to play like a rover to be a net positive, but good teams aren't going to want to let him play like a rover. I think what he was last year (55 points in 82 games with a neutral +/-) can be what he can be while playing within a team's system, but that's not even remotely worth $10 million a year.

I think the Penguins will get value for him with retaining 50% and trading him with only a year or two left, but the deal ended up a dud for sure. It's less that Dubas paid a ton for him, but more that Karlsson isn't remotely worth $10 million a year on a good team. Coincidentally, this is similar to what I've been saying about Granlund since he has been performing great with San Jose. I figure that Karlsson ends up getting traded for like a conditional 1st and a B prospect with the Penguins eating half of his deal at either the 2026 or 2027 deadline.

1. Pens are a bad team.
2. Pens have no structure.

So according to your theory this is a perfect team for EK.

 

[BallardEra]

Pens have the worst goals against per game with the worst goal differential in the league.

They have a tough 10 game stretch coming up.

Will be interesting to see if Sullivan can survive for that long.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pens have the worst goals against per game with the worst goal differential in the league.

They have a tough 10 game stretch coming up.

Will be interesting to see if Sullivan can survive for that long.

Sullivan could shoot Valteri Puustinen in the head at center ice and he'd still keep his job.

No amount of losing is going to cost him his job sadly.

 

[BallardEra]

Sullivan could shoot Valteri Puustinen in the head at center ice and he'd still keep his job.

No amount of losing is going to cost him his job sadly.

It could happen if the losing continues and the fans start chanting "Fire Sully!" at the games.

 

[ChadBigly]

Gifted the dream situation that even my 3 year old nephew likely wins a cup with.

Bungles it so badly by trying to be friends with the young stars and overpaying the shit out of them.

Abysmal trade history, abysmal draft history, abysmal hiring history.


Somehow is wanted by Pittsburgh.

Immediately bungles the last shot of Crosby and Malkin by making a terrible trade for Erik Karlsson when he already has Letang (the same type of 1D PP player) giving up assets for it.

Please explain how this guy is anything but terrible?

I'm glad people are waking up to the fancy stats poster boy being a fraud.

 

[PaulD]

Kyle Dubas has been coasting on Theo Epstein vibes since the mid 2010s while building up his NHL programs under the guise of progressive and analytics... which basically is one splashy and ill fitting superstar per tenure followed by little timid nibbles at the roster, going cheap on defense and moneyball cheap in net. Consistently overpays in the trade market, makes mistakes he needs to cover up with draft capital, makes big headed convoluted transactions that look like parlay bets but miss actual hockey intuition, talks about building rosters like he's "betting," talks up a big loyalty game but good luck to you if you don't come from his inner circle and or Soo entourage.

Bang on.

 

[Whoot Whoot]

We have a guy in the film scoring business who is just like Dubas. Talentless, yet beloved.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Yup. Lou Lam builds the Leafs a winning core and gets fired and replaced by Dubas who goes about ruining that core’s chances at a Cup.
The question isn’t if Lou Lam brings Toronto a Cup if he stays as GM but how many Cups? Leaf fans got ripped off by Shanahan.

I dont think its a guarantee he automatically GMs the leafs to cups, but damn if it isnt obvious now that having a hardass manager like Lamiorello was an absolute need for the personalities of this group of players. Theres lots of stories about how little patience Lou has for fools and people who dont perform from his New Jersey days.

Back in 2017 it wasnt obvious from the fans view in the stands that was going to be the case.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Pens have the worst goals against per game with the worst goal differential in the league.

They have a tough 10 game stretch coming up.

Will be interesting to see if Sullivan can survive for that long.

Becoming a clear theme Kyle Dubas cannot scout goaltending and builds teams that can't play defense.

Is it a coincidence the Penguins go from middle of the pack to clear worst defensive team within 2 seasons of him taking over, and the Leafs go from one of the worst to 6th best in that same time frame?

 

[SirKillalot]

That being said, the Karlsson deal ended up terrible because it seems like Karlsson is a "good player on a bad team" type of player. He can't be effective playing within a structure and needs to be allowed to play like a rover to be a net positive, but good teams aren't going to want to let him play like a rover. I think what he was last year (55 points in 82 games with a neutral +/-) can be what he can be while playing within a team's system, but that's not even remotely worth $10 million a year.

What is stopping the Penguins from having different strategies on their lines. They could have 2-3 structured lines and one line with Karlsson being a "rover" with work horses up front and a good d-partner. You play to your strengths or players adapt to your structure. The latter doesn't seem like a good solution, so adapt to utilize Karlsson's strengths to benefit a line.

 

[kevsh]

a hardass manager like Lamiorello was an absolute need for the personalities of this group of players

And that was almost certainly part of the reason he was shown the door.

The Leafs had a few big contracts coming up and Lou's hardline approach was clearly in direct opposition to MLSE's philosophy of "pay the stars anything they want" ... Though, that ridiculous Engvall contract suggests Lou has softened up somewhat since then.

(And before anyone points out the drawn-out, tense negotiations Dubas had with Nylander, he wasn't a star yet and he was that rare player that was willing to sit out indefinitely if he didn't get every single cent he felt he deserved. I have a feeling Lou would have let him sit out the year and never would have gone as far as Kyle did to get Willie on board.)

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Not really, people will talk about trading a draft pick for player for example the pick that was used to select Niedermayer but that pick wasn't traded knowing it was going to be a 3rd overall pick with the potential to select a HOFer. It was a futures trade.

The Kadri trade was a trade made knowing very well what the value of each of the pieces were. It wasn't a future draft pick that hadn't been determined yet, the players involved had real tangible value + contracts.

Kadri for 4 years at 4.5M for one year of Barrie and Kerfoot who is complete trash

Making that trade knowing damn well what the value of every player involved in it, is pretty horrific. I legitimately don't think there is a worse trade in the teams history.

Rask for Raycroft was horrendous as well but Rask was a prospect at the time.

The Bathgate trade back in the 60s was really bad

Andy Bathgate trades - NHL Trade Tracker

Larry Murphy for Ser-not-appearing-in-this-league (ie literally nothing) has to have few actual rivals honestly.