When are we going to be honest with ourselves about how bad Kyle Dubas is?

[qc14]

The Karlsson trade was bad. The worst part was telling the world Sid wants me to get EK before the trade was made. EK went from low value to worth something in the blink of an eye

Karlsson had just scored 100 points and won the Norris ...

 

[sena]

Karlsson had just scored 100 points and won the Norris ...

and had a massive contract nobody would touch. Duby is just a fanboy collecting EK to go with his Spezza so they can all hang out in the front office in a few years

 

[Leafshater67]

That was going to be hard to do after Eichel got 80 million/8 years.

At the time, eichel was viewed as a higher tier than Marner and especially Nylander. And IMO, he still is. Plus he’s a centre

 

[Empoleon8771]

and had a massive contract nobody would touch. Duby is just a fanboy collecting EK to go with his Spezza so they can all hang out in the front office in a few years

That's why the Penguins got him for 3 cap dumps and a 1st.

That being said, the Karlsson deal ended up terrible because it seems like Karlsson is a "good player on a bad team" type of player. He can't be effective playing within a structure and needs to be allowed to play like a rover to be a net positive, but good teams aren't going to want to let him play like a rover. I think what he was last year (55 points in 82 games with a neutral +/-) can be what he can be while playing within a team's system, but that's not even remotely worth $10 million a year.

I think the Penguins will get value for him with retaining 50% and trading him with only a year or two left, but the deal ended up a dud for sure. It's less that Dubas paid a ton for him, but more that Karlsson isn't remotely worth $10 million a year on a good team. Coincidentally, this is similar to what I've been saying about Granlund since he has been performing great with San Jose. I figure that Karlsson ends up getting traded for like a conditional 1st and a B prospect with the Penguins eating half of his deal at either the 2026 or 2027 deadline.

 

[danny90]

He built some poor teams in Toronto and never gave them a chance to win. Ever. Now they’re kind of stuck in no man’s land because they an apprentice GM run the show.

His biggest mistake- “ we can and we will”. He should not have signed Tavares, although he didn’t know that Marner, Matthews and Nylander would get pushed out of the playoffs and not able to compete, but still, they needed a #1D and he should have recognized that.

He is much a much better GM today than he was during his training.

I don’t recall any poor teams in Toronto under Dubas, any examples?

 

[hotpaws]

I don’t recall any poor teams in Toronto under Dubas, any examples?

the one that missed the playoffs

also he didn't build anything in Toronto , he inherited a elite young core which just came off a franchise record for points and did nothing but spin it wheels and burn draft picks

he pretty much destroyed his tenure in Toronto before it started by handing the career loser Tavares the highest cap hit in the NHL at the time of his signing

 

[Nineteen67]

I don’t recall any poor teams in Toronto under Dubas, any examples?

All 5

 

[Voight]

At the time, eichel was viewed as a higher tier than Marner and especially Nylander. And IMO, he still is. Plus he’s a centre

Maye Nylander at the time but not Marner. As for still is, that's highly debatable.

 

[hamzarocks]

That was going to be hard to do after Eichel got 80 million/8 years.

No that is exactly what should havr gotten based on Eichel comparable

Matthews gets 11-11.5M x 8

Marner gets 8.5M x 8 being a worse player than Eichel in 2017, 2018 and 2019

Nylander gets 7.5M x 8 as his comparables were Gaudreau (RIP), Ehlers, Pastranak

 

[BrokenFace]

Karlsson had just scored 100 points and won the Norris ...

Before that season his contract was considered among the worst in the NHL. Lots of posters here called that Norris hollow, and I think they've been vindicated by his lack of impact in Pittsburgh.

 

[qc14]

Before that season his contract was considered among the worst in the NHL. Lots of posters here called that Norris hollow, and I think they've been vindicated by his lack of impact in Pittsburgh.

I agree that his contract was still a risk and that almost everyone knew and understood some of the underlying issues with his game in SJS. This idea that they traded for someone completely washed that no one else would touch with a ten foot pole though is completely wrong.

 

[Peasy]

I agree that his contract was still a risk and that almost everyone knew and understood some of the underlying issues with his game in SJS. This idea that they traded for someone completely washed that no one else would touch with a ten foot pole though is completely wrong.

Nah I think that is very true, especially without major retention. Who else in this league would have traded and given up assets for Karlsson at 10m last summer (trade happened in august btw).

 

[qc14]

Nah I think that is very true, especially without major retention. Who else in this league would have traded and given up assets for Karlsson at 10m last summer (trade happened in august btw).

Can't believe I'm defending the Penguins so much but it was widely reported that Carolina, one of the supposedly best FOs in the league, was the other finalist.

It was a calculated risk but one I think made sense to take. The talent ID of spending $9.5M on Reilly Smith and Ryan Graves in that same summer is much more indefensible

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dubas' biggest mistake was not immediately starting a rebuild and instead trying to maintain being competitive by giving out big UFA deals to Jarry, Graves and Acciari (to a lesser extent) and trading for Karlsson and Smith. That said, we have no clue what mandate he was given from ownership and whether they would have okay'd a rebuild immediately upon starting.

The Penguins collapsed hard in the 2022-2023 season, but remember they were their standard self up until the second half of that season. The Penguins were 9th in the NHL in point% on January 1st and were on track to finish the year with 100 points. They were on track to be 2nd or 3rd in the Metro and be in the same position they had been in for years. In hindsight, it is factually the correct decision that they should have just torn it down and rebuilt them. But at the time, I don't think it was clear the Penguins were as spent as they were in the second half of the 2022-2023 season.

What happened is that the second half 2022-2023 Penguins were the new Penguins, and the only way you could have known that was being able to tell the future. I think an interesting discussion that hasn't happened as much as it should is "why did the Penguins fall off in 2023?", because it was abrupt and pretty out of nowhere.

Nah I think that is very true, especially without major retention. Who else in this league would have traded and given up assets for Karlsson at 10m last summer (trade happened in august btw).

The reasons so few teams would have done it is because the cap wasn't rising much and most teams were strapped for cap space, plus San Jose was just refusing to retain any money. The only reason the Penguins were able to do it was because they moved 3 cap dumps in the trade.

 

[Pancakes]

People saying the Ek trade was bad need to remember the absolute trash the Pens cleared in salary just to get him.

It wasn't the Pens just taking on salary in a vacuum. They rid themselves of lots of bad contracts just to take on Ek.

It was a good idea in theory. That Ek didn't work out is imo more on Sullivan than Dubas. Sullivan destroys everything he touches. If the Pens trade Ek I bet he quickly becomes good again elsewhere.

 

[SEALBound]

There are plenty of things that Dubas has done that I don't like. The EK trade I'm even on because it was a single trade cleaned up A LOT of mistakes from Ron Hextall.

If we want to berate him, do it for:
1. Not firing Sullivan.
2. Jarry and Graves
3. Giving Sullivan ANY say in how to build the roster.

 

[hockeyisgud]

Pens are a lottery team and it sickens me because Crosby and Malkin and even Letang don't deserve this shit.

EVEN KARLSSON!

Unlucky again for Dubas I guess.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It really sucked when Dubas signed Ryan Reaves to that ridiculous contract, same for Domi.

There are plenty of things that Dubas has done that I don't like. The EK trade I'm even on because it was a single trade cleaned up A LOT of mistakes from Ron Hextall.

If we want to berate him, do it for:
1. Not firing Sullivan.
2. Jarry and Graves
3. Giving Sullivan ANY say in how to build the roster.

1 and 3 are because the owners literally love Sullivan and gave him the hammer before they even hired Dubas as Director of Hockey Ops. #2 might also be a Sullivan mandate.

Blame him for Acciari.
Blame him for Nedeljkovic.
Blame him for Bunting.
...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Pens are a lottery team and it sickens me because Crosby and Malkin and even Letang don't deserve this shit.

EVEN KARLSSON!

Unlucky again for Dubas I guess.

The issue is Sullivan and a meddling ownership group that protects Sullivan. It's why no one wanted the GM job and Dubas had to take that job too. In his original role, he's done a good job. As a GM? Average at best.

Sullivan being protected by ownership is ridiculous to blame Dubas on. Sullivan keeps losing and Dubas might be able to sway the ownership to fire him because that's more empty seats and another missed playoffs.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

People saying the Ek trade was bad need to remember the absolute trash the Pens cleared in salary just to get him.

It wasn't the Pens just taking on salary in a vacuum. They rid themselves of lots of bad contracts just to take on Ek.

It was a good idea in theory. That Ek didn't work out is imo more on Sullivan than Dubas. Sullivan destroys everything he touches. If the Pens trade Ek I bet he quickly becomes good again elsewhere.

This has been the bigger issue across 3 Gm's. The question of how many of these "failed players" would have succeeded with a different coach on the Pens.

Right now he's basically using Grzelcyk with Letang or Karlsson and neither is playing well with Gryz.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851343839371333752

 

[hockeyisgud]

The issue is Sullivan and a meddling ownership group that protects Sullivan. It's why no one wanted the GM job and Dubas had to take that job too. In his original role, he's done a good job. As a GM? Average at best.

Sullivan being protected by ownership is ridiculous to blame Dubas on. Sullivan keeps losing and Dubas might be able to sway the ownership to fire him because that's more empty seats and another missed playoffs.

To say nobody would want to be the GM of a team with Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin in a win now situation (at the time of hire), and the expectation of the ability to rebuild one of the best NHL franchises in the entire league is completely insane. It was probably the most sought after job at the time.

Sullvan has won the cup twice

Crosby and Malkin thrice

Also Crosby and Malkin are still scoring hard for me in my fantasy leagues.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

To say nobody would want to be the GM of a team with Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin in a win now situation (at the time of hire), and the expectation of the ability to rebuild one of the best NHL franchises in the entire league is completely insane. It was probably the most sought after job at the time.

Sullvan has won the cup twice

Crosby and Malkin thrice

Also Crosby and Malkin are still scoring hard for me in my fantasy leagues.

To take a job where the coach has more power than you and got JR to quit and Hextall got all the blame, yeah.

But tell me more non Pens fan with an axe to grind with Dubas that apparently knows the Pens situation more than us Pens fans.

 

[hockeyisgud]

To take a job where the coach has more power than you and got JR to quit and Hextall got all the blame, yeah.

But tell me more non Pens fan with an axe to grind with Dubas that apparently knows the Pens situation more than us Pens fans.

I have no axe, maybe a shiv.

I have no skin in the game when it comes to the Toronto Maple Leafs other than the fact I'm from Vancouver and hate them (so I should probably like him now that he left there?).

I just cannot understand how a person so undeserving of something gets chance after chance with a history of fail after fail.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I have no axe, maybe a shiv.

I have no skin in the game when it comes to the Toronto Maple Leafs other than the fact I'm from Vancouver and hate them (so I should probably like him now that he left there?).

I just cannot understand how a person so undeserving of something gets chance after chance with a history of fail after fail.

Most felt the same about JR before he left.

 

[Peasy]

Can't believe I'm defending the Penguins so much but it was widely reported that Carolina, one of the supposedly best FOs in the league, was the other finalist.

It was a calculated risk but one I think made sense to take. The talent ID of spending $9.5M on Reilly Smith and Ryan Graves in that same summer is much more indefensible

A smart front office would try and reunite Burns and Karlsson again on the same team after seeing how poorly it played out in San Jose lol?