When are we going to be honest with ourselves about how bad Kyle Dubas is?

[Apex Predator]

Pens have only gotten worse since hes got there but hes a smooth talker so some pens fans will still be believers.

There are leaf fans who are still believers.

 

[NinjaKick]

The thing with Karlsson is he only comes close to being worth any amount of money if you run your entire offence through him and let him disregard all defensive responsibility, to the detriment of your own team like the Sharks did. No contender is going to do that, and I as a result I doubt he'd be all that valuable even at 50%

What is this based on? The Penguins didn't do that with him last year and he had a good season. Not $10 million good, but good season.

Karlsson put up 56 points in 82 games and ended a +4 last year. I figure almost every contender would love that if they were only on the hook for $5 million as a rental for him.

based on going from 101 points to 56 points maybe? you kinda answered your own question lol

 

[Bozo Nicholson]

After some serious come-to-jesus soul searching, I am finally ready to admit that Dubas is indeed garbanzo beans. It has taken an arduous road of introspection to reach this point.

 

[ijuka]

Karlsson had just won the freaking Norris trophy and they got him without giving up a ton.

It was a worthwhile risk to take, their core group is just too old and Karlsson I think has a weird thing about not being the absolute alpha on the back end (seemed like in San Jose he only really took off once Burns left).

Karlsson is definitely not an easy player to work with, but if you do decide to work with him, you should accomodate him. He's not doing you any good if you make him be a 50 point generic #2 defenseman. He's not good at that. He needs a free reign and complete freedom. Can't give it to him? Don't trade for him!

If Dubas was going to trade for Karlsson, he needed to clarify this with Sullivan, or fire Sullivan. Karlsson can be very effective, but ONLY if you let him do what he wants, and deal with the repercussions. Otherwise, he's not worth it. He's not going to reinvent himself at his age.

Karlsson is the ultimate "orchid" type player. Either he's amazing, or he's absolutely awful. He requires the right environment.

 

[BB88]

Karlsson had just won the freaking Norris trophy and they got him without giving up a ton.

It was a worthwhile risk to take, their core group is just too old and Karlsson I think has a weird thing about not being the absolute alpha on the back end (seemed like in San Jose he only really took off once Burns left).

Everyone knew that move wasn’t going to be enough to make them competitive and just created a 10 years of darkness future for them

They had nothing in the prospect pool, refused to retool it and made an all in move that was never going to be enough

So yeah great vision and congrats for Karlsson winning the Norris!

 

[sena]

based on going from 101 points to 56 points maybe? you kinda answered your own question lol

That is his point production when he plays D. to impress Sid. The guy has always been a high event tire fire when producing points.

 

[John Price]

he was heavily overrated in toronto and not faring much better in pittsburgh. Pitt fans, do you miss guentzel? What was the rationale behind trading a rising young star?

 

[Hierso]

Kyle Dubas has been coasting on Theo Epstein vibes since the mid 2010s while building up his NHL programs under the guise of progressive and analytics... which basically is one splashy and ill fitting superstar per tenure followed by little timid nibbles at the roster, going cheap on defense and moneyball cheap in net. Consistently overpays in the trade market, makes mistakes he needs to cover up with draft capital, makes big headed convoluted transactions that look like parlay bets but miss actual hockey intuition, talks about building rosters like he's "betting," talks up a big loyalty game but good luck to you if you don't come from his inner circle and or Soo entourage.

Dubas worst weakness was getting too chummy with his players. It's a good thing to have the trust of the players but at the end of the day i kinda feel like he didn't make the right moves as a GM because he didn't want to lose his friends in a hockey trade.

 

[avsfan9]

But… at the time fans were claiming Erik Karlsson was Bobby Orr reincarnate and he was greater than mcjesus himself…..

 

[hurdemz]

really is mind boggling isn’t it. I mean what moron would trade all his grit away for the smallest softest players and think that’s a good idea in a contact sport! And when things didn’t work, he doubled, tripled and quadrupled down. I hate the excuse “well we didn’t see covid happening”. Do you think the millions of entrepreneurs world wide through their arms up and called it a day cause covid stopped their business in their tracks? No. They pivoted, they got creative and turned lemons into lemonade. When covid and a flat cap came, after several failures with the core 4, maybe trade one of your $11 million players and fill out the team better instead of throwing up your hands “we couldn’t do anything cause of covid”. What a waste of an era and shanahan will go down as the worse president in team history and dubas worse gm in team history.

No, no no. That honor goes to Harold Ballard/ John Ferguson Jr.

 

[Bouboumaster]

I think he's good at talent scouting, ok at drafting and terrible at Contract negociations

 

[Duffy13]

he was heavily overrated in toronto and not faring much better in pittsburgh. Pitt fans, do you miss guentzel? What was the rationale behind trading a rising young star?

Guentzal is a 30 year old who wanted to test free agency, looking to maximize as much money with as much term as he could get. Because he wouldn't commit to signing before free agency, and, in order to not lose him for nothing, he was traded.

Do I miss Guentzal, no, I appreciate everything he has done for this team and I wish him nothing but success, but he wasn't signing here so, good luck and best wishes.

 

[Empoleon8771]

based on going from 101 points to 56 points maybe? you kinda answered your own question lol

To say Karlsson wasn’t a good player or wasn’t worth any money because he “only” put up 56 points last year is stupid.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

He inherited a team on the rise and they plateaued. He now inherited a team on the decline and they’re declining.

As such, there is not a single metric out there that makes Dubas a competent GM. All signs point to him being fired within three seasons, unless FSG trusts him to get proper returns for when Crosby, Malkin, and Letang request to be traded. It would be folly to allow Dubas to remain and use the freed-up cap space to his liking.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

There are leaf fans who are still believers.

Those must be really stupid Leafs fans because Dubas isn't our GM anymore.

Pretty sure 99% of Leafs fans have moved on.

 

[chris kontos]

rob blake of the kings is worse than dubas- pierre luc dubois trade, aquires kevin fiala for brock faber and on and on...

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

I think he's good at talent scouting, ok at drafting and terrible at Contract negociations

He traded Marchment for Malgin.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Was there a single GM who was going to make that Penguins team better when it was clear the mantra from ownership was he is not allowed to change the coach or the core?

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Was there a single GM who was going to make that Penguins team better when it was clear the mantra from ownership was he is not allowed to change the coach or the core?

Managing the cap is the issue, just like it was in Toronto.

Dubas acquired Karlsson— cap disaster
Dubas signed Graves — disaster
Dubas extended Jarry — disaster

These three moves count for $20 mil against the cap and have made the Penguins worse. Pens’ PP went from 14th before Dubas/EK to 30th last season. This year they’re allowing a league-worst 35 shots a game and 4/6 of the defense was brought in by Dubas.

Conversely, Philly hasn’t added any bad contracts, has better prospects, and has about the same W-L record since Dubas was hired by Pittsburgh. Both teams have issues, but Flyers have more promise and flexibility.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Managing the cap is the issue, just like it was in Toronto.

Dubas acquired Karlsson— cap disaster
Dubas signed Graves — disaster
Dubas extended Jarry — disaster

These three moves count for $20 mil against the cap and have made the Penguins worse. Pens’ PP went from 14th before Dubas/EK to 30th last season. This year they’re allowing a league-worst 35 shots a game and 4/6 of the defense was brought in by Dubas.

Conversely, Philly hasn’t added any bad contracts, has better prospects, and has about the same W-L record since Dubas was hired by Pittsburgh. Both teams have issues, but Flyers have more promise and flexibility.

Dubas' type he prefers players to be like is certainly questionable, I'll say that. Many Toronto fans feel between the culture he put in place, the way he handled negotiations, and the failure to insulate the core (mostly due to cap space) and when he did whiffing often and having to pay assets to bail himself out killed the window of the core.

But I think even if a GM put in place the perfect supporting cast, Letang is still ancient, Malkin and Crosby are not what they were while still great, it's just curtains for them which is the way it goes. Another thing too is even though Dubas was not allowed to sell the core of the team, he has done a decent job of prioritizing draft picks and prospects for a team who had nothing coming.

By the time Crosby retires, there is a decent chance the Penguins already have a top 15 prospect pool which is a major upgrade from being bottom 5 every year. Dubas knows this team is not winning shit

 

[BallardEra]

At least The Dubas Invitational golf tournament is in full swing this weekend:

 

[Peasy]

Dubas' type he prefers players to be like is certainly questionable, I'll say that. Many Toronto fans feel between the culture he put in place, the way he handled negotiations, and the failure to insulate the core (mostly due to cap space) and when he did whiffing often and having to pay assets to bail himself out killed the window of the core.

But I think even if a GM put in place the perfect supporting cast, Letang is still ancient, Malkin and Crosby are not what they were while still great, it's just curtains for them which is the way it goes. Another thing too is even though Dubas was not allowed to sell the core of the team, he has done a decent job of prioritizing draft picks and prospects for a team who had nothing coming.

By the time Crosby retires, there is a decent chance the Penguins already have a top 15 prospect pool which is a major upgrade from being bottom 5 every year. Dubas knows this team is not winning shit

Hes gotten like a pick upgrade for getting/trading away Smith (3rd to a 2nd). He gave up a 1st for Karlsson, which ended up being 14th overall. Included Granlund as a cap dump which the Sharks will likely get a 1st or at the very least a 2nd for at the deadline this year. He couldnt even get a 1st for trading Guentzel... Opted for a bunch of meh prospects I was told that are suppose to help compete right now (which clearly isnt true cause not one of them are in the NHL right now).

Not sure how you can say with a straight face hes done well in the picks and prospect department.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

The Karlsson trade is fine. People are acting like he gave up some prize assets. Nah.

The first round pick was the only thing of value. The players were cap dumps. And the Sharks retained.

The real problem is that the Pittsburgh core is too old and there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Dubas was given orders from ownership to try to keep them competitive. It’s obvious now they aren’t and can’t be.

The pens need to do a creative retool this offseason like the caps did.

It was the mis-allocation of $10m for Karlsson that sucked for them. They needed depth and that 10m could have actually addressed team needs. Instead they have Karlsson and Letang and they only needed one, Letang.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It was the mis-allocation of $10m for Karlsson that sucked for them. They needed depth and that 10m could have actually addressed team needs. Instead they have Karlsson and Letang and they only needed one, Letang.

Issue is that they had Petry and Granlund at the time eating up that money. It wasn’t Karlsson or $10 million in cap space, it was Karlsson or Petry and Granlund.

In hindsight, they were better off just eating the bad Petry and Granlund deals and keeping the 1st.

Hes gotten like a pick upgrade for getting/trading away Smith (3rd to a 2nd). He gave up a 1st for Karlsson, which ended up being 14th overall. Included Granlund as a cap dump which the Sharks will likely get a 1st or at the very least a 2nd for at the deadline this year. He couldnt even get a 1st for trading Guentzel... Opted for a bunch of meh prospects I was told that are suppose to help compete right now (which clearly isnt true cause not one of them are in the NHL right now).

Not sure how you can say with a straight face hes done well in the picks and prospect department.

Brunicke was their 2nd rounder this year that was so good in the pre-season he nearly made the NHL team as an 18 year old. Yager was also a good pick that Dubas basically did a 1/1 swap for an equivalent prospect with. The prospects he got for Guentzel (ended up being Koivunen, Ponomarev, Brunicke and Lucius) also look good so far.

His additions to the prospect pool are like the only good thing he has done well so far. This was the post I just made on the Penguins board about his performance so far:

I think it’s most fair to put Dubas’ performance with the Penguins as poor. He hasn’t done well with the moves he has made but I also feel most of the moves he has made have been inconsequential or meh.

You have:

-Jarry deal: horrible
-Graves deal: horrible
-Other UFA signings: some good and some bad, but still mostly inconsequential
-Karlsson trade: fine value that ended up being a mistake
-Guentzel trade: fine value that he mistakenly insisted on targeting Bunting in
-Smith trade: I guess net positive? He traded a 3rd, got a mediocre year out of Smith and then traded him for a 2nd
-McGroarty trade: fine, just an even prospect 1/1 swap
-Hayes/Glass trade: meh? They got paid to take on a bad deal.

I’d say his drafting has been good, his trades have been meh and his UFA signings have been awful. That results in a poor grade overall for Dubas.

 

[LeonDraisaitl]

It’s clear he doesn’t know how to build a hockey team tbh. Adding Karlsson when they didn’t need him. He strikes me as a Dorion type who just adds big names cause they are available, not actually looking at how they would fit into the team