What's going on with Tavares ?

[-DeMo-]

He was expected to improve as he entered his prime years and had a lot of young talented players.

this line is completely false he was 4-5 years into his prime by the time he arrived in Toronto is Matthews/Marner just now entering there prime years?

 

[hamzarocks]

His production hasn't changed until this year. Your expectations have.

Like I said - at the time the deal was signed, you would 100% have signed off on 0.98 PPG over the first 5 years of that deal. Let's stop pretending otherwise.

You keep oj fixating on ppg but ignore his decline in play both indvidually and relative to the league

He was top 10 in the league for production from 2010 to 2018

8 years as an islander

5 years as a leaf in a role with more offensive talent around him hes dropped to ~top 25 the first 5 years as a leaf

No one here thought tavares would be the 35th to 50th best player in the league over the first 5 years of his deal.

If league scoring stayed where it was (100 pt being ross winner) than tavares being ppg would have been decent enough

Now though it is complete failure. Leaf fans pretending he has not failed the most basic of expectations are lying to themselves

Tavares is a cancer, hes the biggest loser on the team. You may love losing and associate with Tavares, but fans who want the team to win see Tavares for the fraud he is

this line is completely false he was 4-5 years into his prime by the time he arrived in Toronto is Matthews/Marner just now entering there prime years?

Matthews + Marner + Nylander wre early 20s and showing to be elite players

Tavares was 28 when he first came.

Expectation was for 100+ pt years

 

[-DeMo-]

Matthews + Marner + Nylander wre early 20s and showing to be elite players

Tavares was 28 when he first came.

Expectation was for 100+ pt years

I'm aware how old everyone was you said Tavares was entering his prime and therefore expected more, when he had already been in his prime for 4-5 years already similar to today with Matthews and Marner, I mean if 28 is just entering ones prime Marner and Matthews still has 1 and 2 years to go why would we move them before there prime as they could both still improve?

and if your expectation was 100+ points for Tavares you were always going to be disappointed. in 2017-2018 season Tavares last season in NYI 3 players Kucherov(100), Giroux(102) and McDavid(108) broke 100 points why would anyone expect that from Tavares? even today only 9 broke 100 points.

 

[hamzarocks]

I'm aware how old everyone was you said Tavares was entering his prime and therefore expected more, when he had already been in his prime for 4-5 years already similar to today with Matthews and Marner, I mean if 28 is just entering ones prime Marner and Matthews still has 1 and 2 years to go why would we move them before there prime as they could both still improve?

and if your expectation was 100+ points for Tavares you were always going to be disappointed. in 2017-2018 season Tavares last season in NYI 3 players Kucherov(100), Giroux(102) and McDavid(108) broke 100 points why would anyone expect that from Tavares? even today only 9 broke 100 points.

Tavares was considered a better player than Matthews in 2018

People thougjt for sure the first three years he would remain better and be capable of being a ross contender

Tavares production since 2022 has been super reliant on his linemates

He cant skate the puck, cant generate self dangerous looks, cant create chances in tight for himself or for his wingers

He has become an anchor who needs his wingers to set him up.

GO read the JT signing thread. We were not expecting Tavares to be the 35th-50th best player when he signed his deal

 

[Gabriel426]

Tavares was considered a better player than Matthews in 2018

People thougjt for sure the first three years he would remain better and be capable of being a ross contender

Tavares production since 2022 has been super reliant on his linemates

He cant skate the puck, cant generate self dangerous looks, cant create chances in tight for himself or for his wingers

He has become an anchor who needs his wingers to set him up.

GO read the JT signing thread. We were not expecting Tavares to be the 35th-50th best player when he signed his deal

A couple of things I seen over the years with JT.
1. He is not as defensive sound as I thought. Esp now when he lost a few steps, he is actually a liability on the ice.
2. He is extremely streaky not just scoring but the ways he plays. There will be shifts where you can see he got that extra jump even if there is very few and far inbetween.
3. He is not as good as passer as I thought.
4. He got a great shot but not a quick shot.
5. He likes to take lessons
6. Leafs will not be competitive unless JT is off the team.

 

[-DeMo-]

Tavares was considered a better player than Matthews in 2018

People thougjt for sure the first three years he would remain better and be capable of being a ross contender

Tavares production since 2022 has been super reliant on his linemates

He cant skate the puck, cant generate self dangerous looks, cant create chances in tight for himself or for his wingers

He has become an anchor who needs his wingers to set him up.

GO read the JT signing thread. We were not expecting Tavares to be the 35th-50th best player when he signed his deal

by what metric was he better then Matthews since Matthews had the same PPG in only his 2nd season in the league in 17/18? then same again in 18.19. why would anyone thought he wasn't going to be better then Tavares from year one.

I mean if you look league wide over Tavares first 5 years the Leafs are 8 goals behind first for the most goals by the team, in order for Tavares to produce top 10 numbers the team would have had to score about 50 more goals, 40 more then any other team is that realistic? when were 3rd and 8 behind the top team? scoring effects matter, role on the team matter, role on a PP matters, he was always the 2nd line center(Tavares)

 

[Gabriel426]

by what metric was he better then Matthews since Matthews had the same PPG in only his 2nd season in the league in 17/18? then same again in 18.19. why would anyone thought he wasn't going to be better then Tavares from year one.

I mean if you look league wide over Tavares first 5 years the Leafs are 8 goals behind first for the most goals by the team, in order for Tavares to produce top 10 numbers the team would have had to score about 50 more goals, 40 more then any other team is that realistic? when were 3rd and 8 behind the top team? scoring effects matter, role on the team matter, role on a PP matters, he was always the 2nd line center(Tavares)

AM was injured quite a bit on JT first season.
And JT did scored 47goals that year.
Still remembered some were saying they should trade AM that off season as he is damaged and JT is great…..It was quite funny and entertaining reading people wanting to trade AM with advanced stats

 

[hamzarocks]

by what metric was he better then Matthews since Matthews had the same PPG in only his 2nd season in the league in 17/18? then same again in 18.19. why would anyone thought he wasn't going to be better then Tavares from year one.

I mean if you look league wide over Tavares first 5 years the Leafs are 8 goals behind first for the most goals by the team, in order for Tavares to produce top 10 numbers the team would have had to score about 50 more goals, 40 more then any other team is that realistic? when were 3rd and 8 behind the top team? scoring effects matter, role on the team matter, role on a PP matters, he was always the 2nd line center(Tavares)

Tavares is paying the only role he can get pts at.

He has no puck skills or vision to run a PP, no elite shot to be a goal scorer

Front of the net got him 40 pts on the PP in 2023

He cant generate chances for his wingers. We thought he would be a play driving center who could give 50+ assists and 40+ goals at minimum

He cant creat looks, struggles to finish and is reliant in linemates

This year he had 65 pts as he wasnt able to keep up on the PP or at 5v5 with marner or nylander.

28 - 32 year seasons should still be part of your prime.

Gilmour, Sundin were still elite players during their late 20s to mid 30s

Tavares hasnt been elite except for 2019

He was very good in 2020 and 2021

But since then his play and production has fallen off as scoring has gone up, and he cant be relied on to create offense for his wingers

 

[frizzer1]

i wouldn't bring him back for anything more than $ 3.5 million. What's the point?

feels like there will be younger and cheaper options out there come that time.

Minimum salary if they want him back.

 

[-DeMo-]

Tavares is paying the only role he can get pts at.

He has no puck skills or vision to run a PP, no elite shot to be a goal scorer

Front of the net got him 40 pts on the PP in 2023

He cant generate chances for his wingers. We thought he would be a play driving center who could give 50+ assists and 40+ goals at minimum

He cant creat looks, struggles to finish and is reliant in linemates

This year he had 65 pts as he wasnt able to keep up on the PP or at 5v5 with marner or nylander.

28 - 32 year seasons should still be part of your prime.

Gilmour, Sundin were still elite players during their late 20s to mid 30s

Tavares hasnt been elite except for 2019

He was very good in 2020 and 2021

But since then his play and production has fallen off as scoring has gone up, and he cant be relied on to create offense for his wingers

not sure what any of this has anything to do with what I said, I haven't given my opinion on Tavares at all just disproving some myths you seem to believe.

as far as 28-32 still being part of your prime, not everyone is the same and you can't just blanket say that. look at someone like Sequin who at 32 hasn't been the same player for 5 years, Lecavalier was never the same after his 26 year old season, Huberdeau at 30 Gaureau at 30 Tarasenko at 32 has been going downhill for a couple of years. lots of players see a decline in there late twenties. and if Tavares has declined it's certainly not because he's not putting in the work. he's been a player whose work ethic has always been praised off the ice. so that's really out of his control and simply comes down to genetics.

 

[hamzarocks]

not sure what any of this has anything to do with what I said, I haven't given my opinion on Tavares at all just disproving some myths you seem to believe.

as far as 28-32 still being part of your prime, not everyone is the same and you can't just blanket say that. look at someone like Sequin who at 32 hasn't been the same player for 5 years, Lecavalier was never the same after his 26 year old season, Huberdeau at 30 Gaureau at 30 Tarasenko at 32 has been going downhill for a couple of years. lots of players see a decline in there late twenties. and if Tavares has declined it's certainly not because he's not putting in the work. he's been a player whose work ethic has always been praised off the ice. so that's really out of his control and simply comes down to genetics.

Crosby
Thornton
H Sedin
Backstrom
Stamkos
Giroux
Kopitar
Malkin
Getzlaf
Bergeron
Datsyuk

There are more centers who remain elite 1Cs into their 28-32 period.

Tavares is being viewed in hindsight in your posts

He was considered the best UFA signing ever in July 2018.

Its pure revisionism to pretend we expected Tavares to produce and perform as a player the way he did his first 5 years.

He was talked about as havin elite IQ, hands, and really good vision

None of that turned to be the case with his game by age 30 being a grinder who needed Nylander to drive the offense.

He was also a lot worse defensively than expected

Your post and others trying to pretend thst expectations were this low for Tavares are not true

 

[-DeMo-]

Crosby
Thornton
H Sedin
Backstrom
Stamkos
Giroux
Kopitar
Malkin
Getzlaf
Bergeron
Datsyuk

There are more centers who remain elite 1Cs into their 28-32 period.

Tavares is being viewed in hindsight in your posts

He was considered the best UFA signing ever in July 2018.

Its pure revisionism to pretend we expected Tavares to produce and perform as a player the way he did his first 5 years.

He was talked about as havin elite IQ, hands, and really good vision

None of that turned to be the case with his game by age 30 being a grinder who needed Nylander to drive the offense.

He was also a lot worse defensively than expected

Your post and others trying to pretend thst expectations were this low for Tavares are not true

low? my expectations were that he would play as a 2c behind our best player Matthews. your the one who apparently thought he would be 100+ point guy when on average at the time only 2-3 guys ever hit that mark on a year to year basis. essentially you thought he would be in the art ross race with McDavid, that was never going to happen lol.

boy you don't seem to read my post correctly, I never said that Elite players can't be great into there 30's... what I said is just because a lot do it doesn't mean everyone will. do you not agree that Tavares reputation of being an extremely hard worker off the ice is correct? or is that just fabricated? and if it is correct and he's regressed it's not due to his efforts, it's clearly got to be genetic.

 

[hamzarocks]

low? my expectations were that he would play as a 2c behind our best player Matthews. your the one who apparently thought he would be 100+ point guy when on average at the time only 2-3 guys ever hit that mark on a year to year basis. essentially you thought he would be in the art ross race with McDavid, that was never going to happen lol.

boy you don't seem to read my post correctly, I never said that Elite players can't be great into there 30's... what I said is just because a lot do it doesn't mean everyone will. do you not agree that Tavares reputation of being an extremely hard worker off the ice is correct? or is that just fabricated? and if it is correct and he's regressed it's not due to his efforts, it's clearly got to be genetic.

His regression is due to his low hockey IQ + selfish style of play + poor skating

If your expectations were a 2C you surely must have been pissed we gave Tavares 11M to be 2C when we had Kadri at 4.5M right?

Tavares decline isnt genetic. He was never worth this money, we overpaid by 2M on July 2018 and over the life of the deal we habe gotten -15 to 20M in value. He suckered us into thinking he was a franchise player and that he was capable of commanding the team as our 1C

Tavares at 57M x 7 would have been closer to his worth if he was going to be the ~50th best player in the league over the first 6 years of his deal

 

[-DeMo-]

His regression is due to his low hockey IQ + selfish style of play + poor skating

If your expectations were a 2C yoy surely must have been pissed we gave Tavares 11M to be 2C when we had Kadri at 4.5M

I expected him to play in the 2c role not play like a 2c there's a difference. in the beginning, and I expected him to decline by the end

so he has all the same talent, skill, skating, vision as when he first arrived in 18-19?

 

[hamzarocks]

I expected him to play in the 2c role not play like a 2c there's a difference. in the beginning, and I expected him to decline by the end

so he has all the same talent, skill, skating, vision as when he first arrived in 18-19?

He has declined but that is due to his play style being one that is tough to have success with in the NHL today

His playstyle is the same as 2019, his skating is as poor as then, his tunnel vision plays are the same as then, he takes poor shots instead of looking to feed his wingers.

That was his very best year where he was a fringe top 15 player.

He doesnt have the IQ to be an adaptable player and evolve his offense like Stamkos, or dominate despite avg skating and physical genes like Kucherov

 

[-DeMo-]

Tavares decline isnt genetic. He was never worth this money, we overpaid by 2M on July 2018 and over the life of the deal we habe gotten -15 to 20M in value. He suckered us into thinking he was a franchise player and that he was capable of commanding the team as our 1C

Tavares at 57M x 7 would have been closer to his worth if he was going to be the ~50th best player in the league over the first 6 years of his deal

I would say 90% or higher of top 6 forwards top 4 Dmen who sign UFA deals, especially if they hit the open market on July 1st end up being overpaid.

 

[hamzarocks]

I would say 90% or higher of top 6 forwards top 4 forwards who sign UFA deals, especially if they hit the open market on July 1st end up being overpaid.

Too bad we blew our load on Tavares in 2018

We wait till 2019 and Panarin is there

2020 Pietrangelo is there

Leafs were unlucky to get Tavares who showed he didnt have the ability to be a needle mover for this team

 

[-DeMo-]

Too bad we blew our load on Tavares in 2018

We wait till 2019 and Panarin is there

2020 Pietrangelo is there

Leafs were unlucky to get Tavares who showed he didnt have the ability to be a needle mover for this team

I mean those guys might not have even been willing to sign here

 

[hamzarocks]

I mean those guys might not have even been willing to sign here

You're still better off in that case

Leafs with Kadri + 6.5M cap space (get a strong 2D or 1LW >> Tavares at 11M

Leafs with Kadri + Panarin for 19/20-21/22 or Pietrangelo for 20/21-21/2022 >>>> Tavares

 

[-DeMo-]

You're still better off in that case

Leafs with Kadri + 6.5M cap space (get a strong 2D or 1LW >> Tavares at 11M

Leafs with Kadri + Panarin for 19/20-21/22 or Pietrangelo for 20/21-21/2022 >>>> Tavares

if you can? those type of players don't grow on trees. there not easy to acquire. teams wouldn't need to go into rebuilds if that were the case.

this is where I think the Tavares haters can't see past his signing. the plan from my POV was that Tavares was free to acquire other then cap but there wasn't that top Dmen available for free in 2018. so we were going to have to trade for one. well why not sign Tavares and then you have a surplus upfront to then move one of Nylander / Marner / Kadri for that top Defenseman. this is where Dubas made his biggest mistake and that's the Kadri deal. he failed to get us that top D in return. if you move Kadri / Marner / Nylander without Tavares you have a weak 2nd line.

and even Signing Tavares really didn't hinder us being able to sign Petro, we could have easily dealt one of Marner /Nylander for picks or prospects if we couldn't afford him by then. but my guess is we could have fit his money in for 20/21 since Kadri was already gone.

 

[myleafs]

Crosby
Thornton
H Sedin
Backstrom
Stamkos
Giroux
Kopitar
Malkin
Getzlaf
Bergeron
Datsyuk

There are more centers who remain elite 1Cs into their 28-32 period.

Tavares is being viewed in hindsight in your posts

He was considered the best UFA signing ever in July 2018.

Its pure revisionism to pretend we expected Tavares to produce and perform as a player the way he did his first 5 years.

He was talked about as havin elite IQ, hands, and really good vision

None of that turned to be the case with his game by age 30 being a grinder who needed Nylander to drive the offense.

He was also a lot worse defensively than expected

Your post and others trying to pretend thst expectations were this low for Tavares are not true

Not a big fan and never was of Tavares but I thought he looked a lot better playing with a couple hard working blue collar types....Knies and Robertson and him looked good to me, at least better than Ive seen from him for a while. I would give him those kind of wingers and I think he can be useful but with Keefe it seemed like your ice time and linemates were based on $ and not actual chemistry. Plodding along Tavares with speedy Nylander was just weird and wrong.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Signing Tavares to a skating puck possession team was a choice.

 

[CDN24]

Crosby
Thornton
H Sedin
Backstrom
Stamkos
Giroux
Kopitar
Malkin
Getzlaf
Bergeron
Datsyuk

There are more centers who remain elite 1Cs into their 28-32 period.

Tavares is being viewed in hindsight in your posts

He was considered the best UFA signing ever in July 2018.

Its pure revisionism to pretend we expected Tavares to produce and perform as a player the way he did his first 5 years.

He was talked about as havin elite IQ, hands, and really good vision

None of that turned to be the case with his game by age 30 being a grinder who needed Nylander to drive the offense.

He was also a lot worse defensively than expected

Your post and others trying to pretend thst expectations were this low for Tavares are not true

I don't think anyone outside of Toronto considered him best UFA signing off all time. some obvious ones

Chara signs with Bruins
S Neidermayer with Ducks

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I don't think anyone outside of Toronto considered him best UFA signing off all time. some obvious ones

Chara signs with Bruins
S Neidermayer with Ducks

Chara is always the one that comes to mind for great UFA signings. He not only stabilized the backend for them, he almost singlehandedly changed the entire culture of the Bruins. The identity was now entirely team-first and everybody bought in or they were shipped out. They got a Cup out of it and almost got two.

I wonder what that's like. Sounds pretty great?

 

[rumman]

He's too slow for the NHL.

We don't have the cap space to keep him.

If he wants to return for 3.5 AAV, sure.

3 year deal, he can work for MLSE when he retires.

This is the kind of contract JT needs to accept or move on. I don’t know if he’s up to working a day job post playing hockey, he certainly doesn’t need the money……….