What wrong with "Mitch'in" Marner?

[Dr Pepper]

Sorry, no. It’s not close. One is underwhelming the other is God awful. People keep asking why Marner is the guy getting heat, it’s because he contributes nothing. Matthews played in half the series and contributed more. Ditto with Nylander.

For all his warts he still somehow leads the Core in playoff scoring, going back to the 2018 season or whichever one was Tavares' first with the group.

Brittle as hell though, and prone to some very costly mistakes, like flipping the puck over the glass when he has ample time to clear the zone. Or not keeping pace with a flying David Pastrnak just before the OT winner on Saturday.

 

[NVious]

Banner? No. But it’s not bad for a guy who was clearly injured and played half the series.

Again, answer my question. What did Mitch Marner do for seven games? Where was he? Matthews won them a game. Nylander won them a game. Both contributed on a goal in game seven.

Where the f*** was Marner? Explain how him doing absolutely nothing in seven games warrants him above anyone let alone Matthews.

If Marner had done ANYTHING they might’ve won the series. Hell, Pasta did almost nothing the whole series but at least he contributed when it mattered. What the f*** did Marner do the whole series?

Want to say Matthews should be better? I’m right here with you. Worse than Marner? Not on your life.

They're both awful thats the point.

Can you explain to me why a 30 player drop in Matthews season to playoff goal production is so much better than Marner's 30 player dropoff season to playoff point production? Because Matthews had 1 goal this series? Lmfao.

 

[oldwpgjet]

I won't deny I'm enjoying this a bit, I actually used to be a leafs fan when I was young. The Leaf media circus that worships every single small event that means basically absolutely nothing has turned me and probably majority of Canada off the Leafs. Marner might not be the playoff performer people hope for but I think he was a big part of what got the leafs in the playoffs in the regular season , making the playoffs is half the battle. Tavares is a great player but you have Matthews as #1 center, I said from the get go when they signed Tavares, leafs have too much money tied up in so few. Tavares is the weak link, 2nd line centers can make half of what he is making. This has been the leafs downfall for awhile now . That money could be bringing in two grit players for the playoffs but they need Marner. This isn't a slight against Tavares, he is a great player as it is about his contract. Adam Lowry ,Jets makes I think under 3 and half million is what the leafs need. Many leafs are underpaid and a few overpaid , Tavares at the top of the list. Surprising they put together as good a team as they have.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They're both awful thats the point.

No… one’s awful, one is not as good as he should be. There is a huge difference between these two guys.

Can you explain to me why a 30 player drop in Matthews season to playoff goal production is so much better than Marner's 30 player dropoff season to playoff point production? Because Matthews had 1 goal this series? Lmfao.

A few reasons,

Averaging 30 something goals in the playoffs is still productive. And while he at least has the excuse of injury this year, he still contributed.

Marner doesn’t score. Even worse he completely disappears every year past game four, he makes brutal mistakes - he was on the ice for the game winning goal. Same as almost every year. Remember the puck over the glass in the Montreal series?

He’s first unit PP and Pk. How did that go?

Again, if he contributes ANYTHING the Leafs win the series. Matthews contributed in half the games. Nylander contributed in half the games. They at least help the team.

Marner is a negative in the playoffs. He’s absolutely brutal.

 

[TooManyHumans]

Hiding from the media after game 7 is just so on brand.

 

[NVious]

No… one’s awful, one is not as good as he should be. There is a huge difference between these two guys.

A few reasons,

Averaging 30 something goals in the playoffs is still productive. And while he at least has the excuse of injury this year, he still contributed.

Marner doesn’t score. Even worse he completely disappears every year past game four, he makes brutal mistakes - he was on the ice for the game winning goal. Same as almost every year. Remember the puck over the glass in the Montreal series?

He’s first unit PP and Pk. How did that go?

Again, if he contributes ANYTHING the Leafs win the series. Matthews contributed in half the games. Nylander contributed in half the games. They at least help the team.

Marner is a negative in the playoffs. He’s absolutely brutal.

Yeah it's productive for a guy you pay 6-8 million not 14.

Neither does Matthews 0 goals in 6 game 7s.

Matthews was on the PP and he doesn't wanna PK, but he gets a pass.

I guess that's the difference you give Matthews a pass and you think I'm giving Marner a pass. I couldn't care less about Marner and I'm totally fine with him being moved. Unfortunately you are the one giving passes and you are giving one to a guy who sucks just as bad career wise in the playoffs and he's getting paid even more than Marner.

Funny thing is Matthews also says people are scapegoating Mitch, so there is his soft leadership, instead of taking the blame himself, he shifts the blame and lives in his delusional world where they are fine, they're both not at all.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yeah it's productive for a guy you pay 6-8 million not 14.

You mean he's underperforming? I agree.

But Marner is useless.

Neither does Matthews 0 goals in 6 game 7s.

No. But he at least set up the goal. At least was productive in limited minutes in a game he probably shouldn't have been playing in.

Where was Mitch Marner?

Matthews was on the PP and he doesn't wanna PK, but he gets a pass.

Played half the series and won a game for them. Was productive in game 7 in limited minutes.

Who was on the ice for the game winning goal against?

I guess that's the difference you give Matthews a pass and you think I'm giving Marner a pass. I couldn't care less about Marner and I'm totally fine with him being moved. Unfortunately you are the one giving passes and you are giving one to a guy who sucks just as bad career wise in the playoffs and he's getting paid even more than Marner.

No, you started off by saying that Matthews was worse. Now you're backpeddling.

I will say it again: one is an underperformer, the other is awful. I'm not sure why you think it's flipped between the two.

 

[NVious]

You mean he's underperforming? I agree.

But Marner is useless.

No. But he at least set up the goal. At least was productive in limited minutes in a game he probably shouldn't have been playing in.

Where was Mitch Marner?

Played half the series and won a game for them. Was productive in game 7 in limited minutes.

Who was on the ice for the game winning goal against?

No, you started off by saying that Matthews was worse. Now you're backpeddling.

I will say it again: one is an underperformer, the other is awful. I'm not sure why you think it's flipped between the two.

Sorry but your hero Matthews thinks you're wrong, according to him Mitch is being unfairly scapegoated lmao.

14 million for 32nd in playoff goal production, 14 million for 10 goals in 25 last elimination games, 14 million for 0 goals in 6 game 7s. Stop simping for Matthews

 

[Buck Naked]

Maybe I'm wrong in my perception on this but I don't think anyone worships the Leafs. Maybe it's a semantics thing, but even when people say musicians and athletes are their "idols", I'm not sure that's actually true. I think there is a distinct line between enjoyment and even adoration, and hero worship. No Leafs fan that I know would pay homage or have any reverence for Leafs player, past or present. That is not to say they are not fans, but I think there is a distinction, which is why Mitch's word of "gods" is really ridiculous given the implications, even if it applies to the organization.

We all know people who think of themselves more than they should, colleagues at work who feel they are indispensable or immune to being downsized, etc. The most balanced people are the ones who can humbly admit their shortcomings, accurately assess their strengths and weaknesses, and make every effort to rectify areas in which they need to develop.

It's not the players they worship, it's the Leaf. I'm a die hard fan of my team here in Sweden. So much so that I don't have any other teams in my life. Not in any other sports, not in any other leagues. I would absolutely equate my love for the crest to worship. But it's not about who's wearing the jersey. it's the jersey. If you wear it, you represent it, and you'll have my love while doing it. The second you leave you become the enemy though.

 

[Juxta Position]

You mean he's underperforming? I agree.

But Marner is useless.

No. But he at least set up the goal. At least was productive in limited minutes in a game he probably shouldn't have been playing in.

Where was Mitch Marner?

Played half the series and won a game for them. Was productive in game 7 in limited minutes.

Who was on the ice for the game winning goal against?

No, you started off by saying that Matthews was worse. Now you're backpeddling.

I will say it again: one is an underperformer, the other is awful. I'm not sure why you think it's flipped between the two.

Leafs with Matthews in the lineup 1-4, Leafs with Matthews out of the lineup 2-0.

Over his career, regular season and playoffs, the Leafs are 37-15-2 with Matthews OUT of the lineup. when will people stop giving him a free pass and scapegoating every other player and realize Matthews is not the player everyone in Toronto wants him to be.

Marner is not a playoff performer, there's no doubt about that, but Matthews has actually been worse, relative to their regular seasons successes. Yet Matthews gets the benefit of the doubt and Marner gets kicked in the teeth.

They are both objectively terrible in the playoffs.

 

[TheNumber4]

When will we know what injuries Matthews had?

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Yo, Hades is the greatest game of all time, great avatar.

I’ve busted 32 heat with every weapon, and 2 aspects with most of them.

ETA - this is in the thread because his/her profile is set to not let randos like me message them.

Hades 2 is announced, and it looks f***ign SIIICK!|

Got some friends working on it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Leafs with Matthews in the lineup 1-4, Leafs with Matthews out of the lineup 2-0.

Over his career, regular season and playoffs, the Leafs are 37-15-2 with Matthews OUT of the lineup. when will people stop giving him a free pass and scapegoating every other player and realize Matthews is not the player everyone in Toronto wants him to be.

Marner is not a playoff performer, there's no doubt about that, but Matthews has actually been worse, relative to their regular seasons successes. Yet Matthews gets the benefit of the doubt and Marner gets kicked in the teeth.

They are both objectively terrible in the playoffs.

Matthews is not worse.

Please stop with this.

 

[HolyHagelin]

Hades 2 is announced, and it looks f***ign SIIICK!|

Got some friends working on it.

My dude i am already on it. Trying to record a podcast about it right now but technical difficulties are really making it difficult!

 

[Juxta Position]

Matthews is not worse.

Please stop with this.

Marner career playoff points per game - .87
Matthews career playoff points per game - .87

Marner regular season points per game 1.10
Matthews regular season points per game 1.15

Yes, relative to regular season production, Matthews is slightly worse.


But Matthews will always get the benefit of the doubt because he scores more, and Leafsland cannot blame their "superstar" so it has to be someone else's fault, and Marner is that guy.

 

[Antropovsky]

He's scored 1 extra goal during his Leafs tenure. Yes, in less games. But considering the fact Marner is a playmaker and Tavares is a goal scorer, that's not exactly a great gap in goal scoring since that's literally the only thing he's better than Marner in.

Also, yes he scored that one OT goal for them to win the series, but that's like saying someone like Chris Kunitz was more valuable to the Penguins' 2017 run than Crosby because Kunitz scored the OT winner in Game 7 versus Ottawa to get them to the finals.

One goal doesn't negate multiple games of being trash.

Lol.... Marner cant hold a candle to Crosby.

In 2023 playoffs, Tavares led the Leafs in slot shots by a very large margin and his shot distance from the season to playoffs stayed within a few feet.

Marner...in 2023 playoffs was worst among leaf forwards by 10% and his shot distance from season to playoffs increased by 10'.

The sportsnet author who posted the stats indicated he thinks a possible reason Matthews can't produce in the playoffs is because Marner plays so far away from the net.

 

[NVious]

Marner career playoff points per game - .87
Matthews career playoff points per game - .87

Marner regular season points per game 1.10
Matthews regular season points per game 1.15

Yes, relative to regular season production, Matthews is slightly worse.


But Matthews will always get the benefit of the doubt because he scores more, and Leafsland cannot blame their "superstar" so it has to be someone else's fault, and Marner is that guy.

They're both terrible, one thing that's interesting is how Matthews faced no scrutiny for his horrendous series against Florida last year.

Marner's last 12 playoff games he has: 2 goals 4 assists
Matthews last 10 playoff games he has: 1 goal 5 assists

Maybe Matthews gets a bit of leeway this year, but how can he get excused for his ZERO goals in the Florida series last year? Oh that's right, Bobrovsky, Vezina goalie, hes hot right now, bla bla.

With how many excuses are made for the both of them you would think they were some 2nd/3rd liners making 3-4 million, not the superstar leaders making the most money in the NHL paid that way to produce superstar results.

 

[abo9]

This is blatantly false Both Matthews and Marner are 71 point players in the playoffs Marner is a PPG last 3 playoffs lol so he has improved not declined

You could argue that I selected a sample that makes them look bad, but it's not "blatantly false" over the sample I looked at.

My reasoning for the sample? Not specifically to make them look bad. I picked the year where they exploded offensively and never looked back. My assumption is that playoff production would follow.

But fair, you want to look at the past 3 years since Marner had his best (by far) playoff production last year. He's still 25 pts in 25 playoff games. A 21% decrease against his regular season production. Still a dramatic decline.

Past 3 years, Matthews goes from 1.31 ppg in the regular season to 1.04... a 20.6% decline. His goal scoring rate goes down the trash too when compared to his regular season's.

It's not as awful a drop as looking at their entire body of work, but it still is very suggestive of the Leafs problems. Can't win when your two best players drop their offensive production by a whole 20% when it matters the most.

And in the case of Matthews, his goalscoring numbers are quite mediocre in the playoffs. 35 goals pace in the past 3 years - same as my original sample. Down from a 60 goals pace. It's a stratospheric crash.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Marner career playoff points per game - .87
Matthews career playoff points per game - .87

Marner regular season points per game 1.10
Matthews regular season points per game 1.15

Yes, relative to regular season production, Matthews is slightly worse.


But Matthews will always get the benefit of the doubt because he scores more, and Leafsland cannot blame their "superstar" so it has to be someone else's fault, and Marner is that guy.

I’ve addressed this already

Matthew gets more of a benefit because:

He was injured this year.
He scores goals
He makes a positive contribution- even if it’s not enough.
He shows up more than Marner
Marner makes huge errors in big moments
This year Matthews played well in limited minutes
Marner disappeared again - and - again - was on the ice for the losing goal.
Marners points are almost entirely assists and he doesn’t produce past game four.

 

[thaman8765678]

I’ve addressed this already

Matthew gets more of a benefit because:

He was injured this year.
He scores goals
He makes a positive contribution- even if it’s not enough.
He shows up more than Marner
Marner makes huge errors in big moments
This year Matthews played well in limited minutes
Marner disappeared again - and - again - was on the ice for the losing goal.
Marners points are almost entirely assists and he doesn’t produce past game four.

He didn't show up more than Marner, he missed 2 and a half games with a tummy ache while Marner played the whole series.

The Leafs were 2-0 without Matthew's in the lineup and with Marner and Nylander stepping up to be the star players of the team in his place.

He was on the ice for the losing goal because he had the tougher matchup. Boston chose to play their best players against Marner because Matthew's is less of a playoff threat.

They both kind of suck come playoffs, relatively to their regular season play. But Matthew's falls off worse statistically than Marner.

 

[Son of Nogatco]

Marner career playoff points per game - .87
Matthews career playoff points per game - .87

Marner regular season points per game 1.10
Matthews regular season points per game 1.15

Yes, relative to regular season production, Matthews is slightly worse.


But Matthews will always get the benefit of the doubt because he scores more, and Leafsland cannot blame their "superstar" so it has to be someone else's fault, and Marner is that guy.

Handle/post

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He didn't show up more than Marner, he missed 2 and a half games with a tummy ache while Marner played the whole series.

I stopped reading there.

 

[Juxta Position]

I’ve addressed this already

Matthew gets more of a benefit because:

He was injured this year.
He scores goals
He makes a positive contribution- even if it’s not enough.
He shows up more than Marner
Marner makes huge errors in big moments
This year Matthews played well in limited minutes
Marner disappeared again - and - again - was on the ice for the losing goal.
Marners points are almost entirely assists and he doesn’t produce past game four.

That's exactly my point. it's always some excuse for Matthews not showing up in the playoffs, it's been 8 bloody years of Matthews no-shows in the playoffs yet Leafs fans always find some excuse for him, whereas Marner gets thrown under the bus.

Matthews is absolute money in regular season, best goal scorer in the game, Matthews in the playoffs is a run of the mill second line player. That is not acceptable for the highest paid player in the league. Yet Leafs fans continue to give him a free pass because of what he does in the regular season, but as it sits right now, as this has been 8 consistent years of mediocre playoff play, he's the biggest playoff disappointment in the NHL.

1 or 2 years of sub-par play playoffs is acceptable, sometimes almost expected when a player makes the playoffs every year, but 8 years, every single year Matthews has been in the league, is flat out not acceptable. He's proven his whole career to absolutely shrink when the games matter the most. A team cannot win with this player as it's "superstar"

Leafs fans need to recognize this.

 

[whatsbruin]

Marner thinks of himself and his teammates as God's in Toronto. Embarrassing.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's exactly my point. it's always some excuse for Matthews not showing up in the playoffs

Every year? No. This year? Yes.

And he played well given the circumstances this year. People are trying to say he was bad this series and I’m not having it. Not this year.

A lot of folks love dumping in the Leafs and so much is deserved. Some of it though is trolling. Matthews had a gutsy effort this year in the face of injury AND he produced when in the lineup.

That doesn’t mean he has been a great performer over the years. It doesn’t mean he can’t be criticized. But there are limits.

Marner on the other hand, has consistently been worse. He played all seven games and contributed squat. There’s no excuse for him AND not only did he not produce, the PK and PP (both of which he’s top unit and played 7 games) were brutal and he was useless on the series losing goal.

These two guys are not the same.