Value of: What would it have cost Yzerman and Detroit to get Quinn Hughes that compares to what Minny paid

[MarkusNaslund19]

I don't otherwise see the relevance of the line "Today sure? but Zeev is 3 yrs younger."

It's not like Ed has peaked as a player.

It's saying let's not assess their whole careers yet.

For the record, I'm one of the few Vancouver fans who agrees that Detroit shouldn't have traded Edvinsson given where they are at in their build and the fact Hughes wasn't committing to re-sign.

But Yzerman has made a mess of that rebuild. Don't believe me? Ask their captain.

 

[SirloinUB]

It's saying let's not assess their whole careers yet.

For the record, I'm one of the few Vancouver fans who agrees that Detroit shouldn't have traded Edvinsson given where they are at in their build and the fact Hughes wasn't committing to re-sign.

But Yzerman has made a mess of that rebuild. Don't believe me? Ask their captain.

Fair enough. Just reads like only one of those players will develop considering that Ed is clearly the better player now and still has plenty of room to grow.

As for your last line, you will get no disagreements from me or any other red wings fan.

 

[KaprizovSaveUs]

Edvinsson=non expendable core. Those don't get moved.

Hence why when you look at what Minnesota gave up, it wasn't Faber.

have fun with that then

 

[dgibb10]

have fun with that then

ASP/MBN/1sts/Danielson/Bear/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper

There is more than enough there to match or beat Minnesotas offer.

And they did have an offer involving this accepted by Van. They just refused to do it without an extension confirmed.

This argument of "X team should have moved X core piece" only makes sense if the winning bid was a team who gave up a core piece.

 

[KaprizovSaveUs]

ASP/MBN/1sts/Danielson/Bear/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper

There is more than enough there to match or beat Minnesotas offer.

And they did have an offer involving this accepted by Van. They just refused to do it without an extension confirmed.

Congrats

 

[UrbanImpact]

You don't move from your core.

Yzerman should have made the deal without commitment on an extension maybe, but that deal would not have had edvinsson in it.

You don't move from your core when you don't have to.

You have all of Danielson, Kasper, 1sts, MBN, Bear, the goalies, ASP, etc as non core pieces to trade. Use them.

Minnesota didn't move anyone from their core to get quinn.

Minny has been a perennial playoff team , stop comparing Detroit to them. Minny has made the playoffs in 6 of the last 7 years.

Minny's core is better than Detroit's core.

So yes Buium, Rossi, Ohgren wasnt part of their core, but thats because they actually had successful teams.


Just because Detroit has a "core" doesnt mean its a good one.

Refusing to trade for an all World Dman who wanted to be in Detroit because you dont want to move a bunch of 23 yr olds is crazy.

Maybe if Hughes was 30 yrs old. but hes not, hes 26. only 3 yrs older than the so called untouchable in Ed.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Keith Gave, who has covered the Red Wings for decades has suggested Detroit's offer was acceptable to Vancouver, but Yzerman wouldn't make the deal because he couldn't get a wink-wink, nudge-nudge agreement on a contract extension.

Gave is a legit source, and some are obviously miffed that Yzerman wouldn't YOLO it like Bill Guerin.

if gave is a legit source on that story then either the trade offer was fake or yzerman is an idiot. you left out that gave also said the wing's offer to hughes was "seven figures long term". so under $10million a year. for quinn hughes. on a trade and extend. some offer.

if the story is true then either yzerman faked out the canucks or is a fool. he never could have had any reasonable belief of signing hughes longterm under $10m. best case scenario for yzerman not being a peabrain is he was faking interest to drive the price up for other serious buyers.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Not edvinsson lmao.

Some combo of 2 of Bear/ASP/Danielson/MBN/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper/1st -->Buium+Rossi

Maybe some sweeteners depending on which 2 it was.



Buchelnikov+1st --> 1st+Ohgren

This is why Detroit didn't get him.

 

[dgibb10]

Minny has been a perennial playoff team , stop comparing Detroit to them. Minny has made the playoffs in 6 of the last 7 years.

Minny's core is different from Detroit's core.

So yes Buium, Rossi, Ohgren wasnt part of their core, but thats because they actually had successful teams.


Just because Detroit has a "core" doesnt mean its a good one.

Refusing to trade for an all World Dman who wanted to be Detroit because you dont want to move a bunch of 23 yr olds is crazy.

Maybe if Hughes was 30 yrs old. but hes not, hes 26. only 3 yrs older than the so called untouchable in Ed.

If you're a worse team it's all the more reason to hold onto the core you do have.


And again, I don't know how many times I have to explain this. Detroit didn't lose out on Quinn Hughes because they weren't willing to move edvinsson.

They had MORE than enough assets to match/beat Minnesotas offer from ASP/MBN/1sts/Danielson/Bear/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper.

They balked at giving up 3-4 of those quality but non core pieces for Quinn to leave in 2 years.

 

[dgibb10]

This is why Detroit didn't get him.

This makes no sense for multiple reasons.

A) the winning bid contained 0 core pieces.

Buium/Rossi falls right in line with 2 of ASP/MBN/Danielson/Bear/Cossa and were both expendable and/or pieces minnesota had already looked to move

And 1st+Ohgren falls right in line with the 1st+Buch they gave up for Faulk.

B) they had a deal that did not include Edvinsson, but balked at making the move without assurances of an extension.


They didn't get him because they were scared to make a move without an extension, not because they didn't include edvinsson

 

[UrbanImpact]

If you're a worse team it's all the more reason to hold onto the core you do have.


And again, I don't know how many times I have to explain this. Detroit didn't lose out on Quinn Hughes because they weren't willing to move edvinsson.

They had MORE than enough assets to match/beat Minnesotas offer from ASP/MBN/1sts/Danielson/Bear/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper.

They balked at giving up 3-4 of those quality but non core pieces for Quinn to leave in 2 years.

I'd take EK, Boldy, Kaprizov , Faber, Wallstadt to whatevr core you think Detroit has.

So you saying Minny didnt have to give up anyone on their core to get Hughes and therefore Detroit shouldnt have to either is waaaaay off on so many levels.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

This makes no sense for multiple reasons.

A) the winning bid contained 0 core pieces.

Buium/Rossi falls right in line with 2 of ASP/MBN/Danielson/Bear/Cossa and were both expendable and/or pieces minnesota had already looked to move

And 1st+Ohgren falls right in line with the 1st+Buch they gave up for Faulk.

B) they had a deal that did not include Edvinsson, but balked at making the move without assurances of an extension.


They didn't get him because they were scared to make a move without an extension, not because they didn't include edvinsson

Buium was a core piece.

 

[dgibb10]

Buium was a core piece.

Not by draft pedigree, role at the time, on ice results, role going forward, etc

He was certainly a high quality piece yes. But not a part of the core, and undoubtably expendable, and actually not just expendable, but obsolete in the context of the quinn Hughes trade.

He would have had no place in the Minnesota lineup for the forseeable future given he can't PK, wouldn't have a PP role anymore, and was very poor EV.

Similar to using 1 of ASP, Danielson, Bear, MBN.

Certainly not similar to taking a top pairing dman off of the roster.

 

[dgibb10]

I'd take EK, Boldy, Kaprizov , Faber, Wallstadt to whatevr core you think Detroit has.

So you saying Minny didnt have to give up anyone on their core to get Hughes and therefore Detroit shouldnt have to either is waaaaay off on so many levels.

I 100% agree with the bolded. And Minnesota, who has a better core than Detroit, added Quinn Hughes to said core without giving up a core piece, and still was not good enough to be a true contender.

So now imagine detroit, who as you said already has a worse core than Minnesota, now SUBTRACTING a piece from said core.

Are they going to win anything? Are they going to be contenders? No, they then have to likely go out and hope they can find not 1, but probably 2 more core pieces.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Not by draft pedigree, role at the time, on ice results, role going forward, etc

He was certainly a high quality piece yes. But not a part of the core, and undoubtably expendable, and actually not just expendable, but obsolete in the context of the quinn Hughes trade.

He would have had no place in the Minnesota lineup for the forseeable future given he can't PK, wouldn't have a PP role anymore, and was very poor EV.

Similar to using 1 of ASP, Danielson, Bear, MBN.

Certainly not similar to taking a top pairing dman off of the roster.

Buium had as good of a pre-NHL pedigree as any defenseman in recent history, including Makar, Hughes, Fox. Being picked at #12 instead of #6 means nothing.

Edvinsson played 16 NHL games at 20 years old.

Buium was expendable only in the context of bringing Hughes in. No other scenario.

Edvinsson was playing on the top pair, he isn't a top pair player (yet).

 

[dgibb10]

Buium had as good of a pre-NHL pedigree as any defenseman in recent history, including Makar, Hughes, Fox. Being picked at #12 instead of #6 means nothing.

Edvinsson played 16 NHL games at 20 years old.

Buium was expendable only in the context of bringing Hughes in. No other scenario.

Edvinsson was playing on the top pair, he isn't a top pair player (yet).

Buium had a great season as a freshman in college.

He then went 12th overall. We have this as about an accurate an estimation as we can get of how NHL gms value him.

He then had virtually the exact same season as a sophmore in college.

So I'm a bit confused as to where in this timeframe of his 2nd year of college his value goes up?

Then, he plays in the NHL. He starts with a good bit of ice time, which trends further and further down based on his play.

He runs the PP to a 21% rate with a fully healthy kirill kaprizov. Not awful, but when you draft a guy to run your PP you expect him to be an improvement on the other guys you've had there before him, especially when said guys certainly were not high level PP weapons (Addison, Chisholm, Spurgeon, Faber).

And then they trade him away.

We can be generous if we want and say he raised his stock a little bit from when he was drafted ig?

But again, this isn't a core piece any more than ASP/MBN/Bear/Danielson are core pieces.



Edvinsson played top pair usage and put up quality results in said role. That's a top pairing dman.

Again, to summarize, Det could have (and vancouver agreed to) gotten Quinn using some 3 (with a sweetener/lesser piece similar to Ohgren) or maybe 4 piece combo of ASP/MBN/1sts/Danielson/Bear/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper. But they balked at the idea of him walking for nothing in 2 years

 

[57special]

Sounds like DRW fans are happy with keeping their team as is, and not losing pieces in a trade for Hughes, so there should be no complaints about not getting him.

 

[My3Sons]

That would also not be Enforceable if Hughes said yes but later rereigned on it.

Like Minny, kind of has to be a leap of faith since only signed contracts are enforceable, not verbal commitments.

No but these guys work in a relatively small community and it wouldn’t be a good look to lie about it if you were open to talking extension. It’s hard to know how much Stroit was giving up but Minnesota replaced a left handed defender with a much better player and only had to add a lower first rounder and a player they wanted to trade anyway. Not really a big leap of faith in my view. If Dtroit was going to move Edvinsson much bigger risk for them. But we don’t know.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Buium had a great season as a freshman in college.

He then went 12th overall. We have this as about an accurate an estimation as we can get of how NHL gms value him.

He then had virtually the exact same season as a sophmore in college.

So I'm a bit confused as to where in this timeframe of his 2nd year of college his value goes up?

Then, he plays in the NHL. He starts with a good bit of ice time, which trends further and further down based on his play.

He runs the PP to a 21% rate with a fully healthy kirill kaprizov. Not awful, but when you draft a guy to run your PP you expect him to be an improvement on the other guys you've had there before him, especially when said guys certainly were not high level PP weapons (Addison, Chisholm, Spurgeon, Faber).

And then they trade him away.

We can be generous if we want and say he raised his stock a little bit from when he was drafted ig?

But again, this isn't a core piece any more than ASP/MBN/Bear/Danielson are core pieces.



Edvinsson played top pair usage and put up quality results in said role. That's a top pairing dman.

Again, to summarize, Det could have (and vancouver agreed to) gotten Quinn using some 3 (with a sweetener/lesser piece similar to Ohgren) or maybe 4 piece combo of ASP/MBN/1sts/Danielson/Bear/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper. But they balked at the idea of him walking for nothing in 2 years

He was a top 5 college player for 2 consecutive years at 18 and 19 years old. Drafted 12th instead of 5th means nothing, again.

Even seeing your own "core" player not be that until 21 years old, yet putting an awful lot of emphasis on Buium's first 31 games at 20 years old is willful ignorance.

Buium was going to be every bit as important as Faber on this team going forward, but it turns out a top 3 defenseman in the world was available.

 

[StreetHawk]

No but these guys work in a relatively small community and it wouldn’t be a good look to lie about it if you were open to talking extension. It’s hard to know how much Stroit was giving up but Minnesota replaced a left handed defender with a much better player and only had to add a lower first rounder and a player they wanted to trade anyway. Not really a big leap of faith in my view. If Dtroit was going to move Edvinsson much bigger risk for them. But we don’t know.

thus, why Quinn didn't want to promise Yzerman anything.
Thus, Yzerman had to bank on Detroit performing with Quinn to convince him that they would be a competitive team moving forward.

 

[NVious]

Copp
Lifetime supply of Little Caesars
Kane autographed USA jersey
Justin Holl

 

[T REX]

Yzerbust

 

[dgibb10]

He was a top 5 college player for 2 consecutive years at 18 and 19 years old. Drafted 12th instead of 5th means nothing, again.

A top 5 pick has never been traded in the salary cap era. 12th overall picks get moved around quite often as centerpieces. Heck a pick around that range gets traded basically every year, sometimes multiple times. The buium pick itself was traded.

There is 100% a difference. There is a difference in expectations, how an organization views a player, how other organizations viewed a player, and whether they are drafted to be a part of the core or not.

12th overall picks and the prospects that come out of them are high quality assets no doubt, but movable assets. Any team in the league could have moved up to 12 to take buium if they wanted. He was available at the draft

Top 5 picks it's just different

Even seeing your own "core" player not be that until 21 years old, yet putting an awful lot of emphasis on Buium's first 31 games at 20 years old is willful ignorance.

Buium was going to be every bit as important as Faber on this team going forward, but it turns out a top 3 defenseman in the world was available.

around the 20 year old mark Edvinsson before he broke through potentially could have been exiting out of what is viewed as core piece yes. But then he solidified himself as a core piece.

But again when your pedigree starts lower, you are an asset first and have to become a part of said core. Buium was a high quality prospect, but in terms of what he was for Minnesota at the time he was a weak point on the roster. PPQB and LHD was a weak point, a gap that needed to be filled/improved.

Again, top prospect. You don't want to give him up if you don't have to. But they aren't your core.

They aren't faber or boldy or kaprizov.

Just like it would impact detroit to give up guys like ASP, Danielson, MBN, Cossa, Bear. Those guys are 100% viewed as a part of the future. And they balked at giving those guys up for Quinn and pulled back. But, they aren't part of the core.


To put it a different way if you don't like the word core, teams don't trade controlled young/prime guys from the top of their lineup unless they ask for a trade or are unwilling to resign/come to an agreement

 

[bleedgreen]

I don’t blame Yzerman for not trading Ed, and I don’t blame any Gm from hesitating on picking up Quinn with no extension. The price would have to be cheaper than Ed if there’s no extension. People blaming Detroit for not making this trade happen doesn’t make sense to me.

FWIW I think Quinn fits the Wild better than he does Detroit. If they have trouble getting him signed it shows that Detroit was probably right to not overpay to get him.

EF has said Yzerman directly spoke to Quinn and that Hughes wouldn’t sign with them, which is why it broke down - and also said Detroit had the parameters of the trade set. Vancouver had agreed.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

Buium was absolutely a core piece for the Wild. To argue differently is just plain wrong.