Player Discussion What went wrong with Galchenyuk's and Kotkaniemi's development and progress that won't go wrong with Slafkovsky's?

[WeThreeKings]

Do you consider that they got to where they are today cause they worked hard on and off the ice or was it because of "not being rushed" as the primarily reason?

What about Poehling? He wasn't rushed. Why did others who develop well that were not rushed and Poehling didn't? Different development or different players that worked harder than others?

I think we are dwelling on mismanagement towards a development team too much. It was an issue but it appears it's being pumped into a bigger problem than it is. New management are not ignoring it and it would dumb to ignore it yeah. But at the end of the day, you got to draft players who are obsessed with improving and then that's where a good development team comes in... they check blind spots and work with the player on where they are spending their hard working energy at. But if you as a parent have to constantly remind you kids to do their homework, they are not turning into a rocket scientist.

So yeah, if you consider it a job and not a passion. That's the bigger problem. No development genius is going to develop complacency type people.

Poehling may have just been an idiot who didn't care.

But the first thing Galchenyuk and Scherbak did after being drafted, was get back into the gym.

There's another side of it that you're not seeing, which is that some of those players had good talent and good work ethic but were given no guidance from the team on what to improve or how to improve it.

Hughes/Gorton literally admitted it when they came in. The previous development team did not build development plans for their prospects.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't trust an 18-19 year old kid to figure out nutritional science and what are the best work-outs for hockey all on their own. Especially since there's so much disinformation and bro science out there.

For all we know, KK did work out hard in the gym but he was working out the wrong way, focusing on the wrong exercises and the result was more bulk but nothing functional.

And the other thing you're missing is that, not everyone can be developed into something. No one is arguing that at all. Poehling was a bad pick, I said it from the start and I don't have a big issue with how they handled him at all. He also didn't show a lot of progression in the NCAA either. He was a victim of WJC hype and his first game. What we are arguing is that a lot of prospects that came through Bergevin's tenure, were given every reason not to succeed and no help to succeed. Which is why we got exactly what we put into it, which was a whole lot of nothing.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Poehling may have just been an idiot who didn't care.

But the first thing Galchenyuk and Scherbak did after being drafted, was get back into the gym.

There's another side of it that you're not seeing, which is that some of those players had good talent and good work ethic but were given no guidance from the team on what to improve or how to improve it.

Hughes/Gorton literally admitted it when they came in. The previous development team did not build development plans for their prospects.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't trust an 18-19 year old kid to figure out nutritional science and what are the best work-outs for hockey all on their own. Especially since there's so much disinformation and bro science out there.

For all we know, KK did work out hard in the gym but he was working out the wrong way, focusing on the wrong exercises and the result was more bulk but nothing functional.

Yes, I touched on the "blind spot" areas a development team can help. A talented player who works hard may be working in the wrong areas. That's where the development value comes IMO.

I think you need every advantage you can get and where I agree is the management and development team was lacking. It didn't yield the best advantage but where I don't agree is how much impact it has compared to what others think. It has an impact but hard to put a % on it.

I just feel that the ones who turn out well are the ones who are obsessive with putting the time in. These are rare and the development teams job is to identify who's working hard and who is not. The ones who are not is difficult to manage. What you going to do... follow them around in their personal life? You can get aggressive and send a message but not sure that works either. The ones who are working hard should get more attention IMO. You can get more value of it. This is where it was lacking with Bergevin IMO.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Robinson is 100 years old! You should reboot your PC or something

And he’d still be a billion times better than what we had.

Robinson was the guy who stood up in Team Canada’s room and told Gretzky, Bossy, Trottier and Messier to shut the hell up and start playing like a team. He’s the ultimate leader and we didn’t return his phone call.

Instead we go with the worst coach in the league.

If nothing else he’d have been a great foil for Therrien. Somebody the players could’ve gone to. Instead we bring in a bully, provide no guidance and then wonder why an 18 year old kid is out at the bar…

 

[Kennerback]

And he’d still be a billion times better than what we had.

Robinson was the guy who stood up in Team Canada’s room and told Gretzky, Bossy, Trottier and Messier to shut the hell up and start playing like a team. He’s the ultimate leader and we didn’t return his phone call.

Instead we go with the worst coach in the league.

When they went for Therrien, It was obvious Bergevin was the wrong guy. I blamed Molson because he must have been advised during the interview process. As soon as Therrien was mentioned, Bergevin should have been escorted out of the Bell Center by security.

 

[le_sean]

Funny with this heated discussion on development and the Bergevin era that I see this clip on twitter



Max praising Therrien and claims he’s still in constant communication with him. Just goes to show that every player is different and has different needs to help them in development.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

When they went for Therrien, It was obvious Bergevin was the wrong guy. I blamed Molson because he must have been advised during the interview process. As soon as Therrien was mentioned, Bergevin should have been escorted out of the Bell Center by security.

You’re right. It was likely one of the first questions he was asked - who would you bring in as coach? That should’ve been enough.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Funny with this heated discussion on development and the Bergevin era that I see this clip on twitter



Max praising Therrien and claims he’s still in constant communication with him. Just goes to show that every player is different and has different needs to help them in development.

Max was already a 30 goal guy by the time MT showed up. And he wasn’t a brash kind of guy like Subban. He was likely treated a lot better than most players.

 

[le_sean]

Max was already a 30 goal guy by the time MT showed up. And he wasn’t a brash kind of guy like Subban. He was likely treated a lot better than most players.

And PK won the Norris under him.

Some players are fine with the tough love approach. We see it didn’t affect Gallagher, that’s basically the way he plays every game. But it didn’t work for daddy’s boy Galchenyuk who likely didn’t want people yelling at him.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Funny with this heated discussion on development and the Bergevin era that I see this clip on twitter



Max praising Therrien and claims he’s still in constant communication with him. Just goes to show that every player is different and has different needs to help them in development.

Max also publicly bashed the organization for how they were developing him early on. He was absolutely right, too.

 

[BJCOLLINS]

To state the obvious, poor Habs management has crushed a decades worth of prospects. When you add in sub par drafting it can’t be a surprise. Hires like Therrien the terrible & Sly (the savage) Lefebvre are examples of an organization in disarray.

Now, we (seem to) have a rookie savant in MSL so let’s surround him with like minded coaches & trainers.

Something our past head coaches appear to have missed is you don’t need to continually pound on rookies that they are lucky to be here and you’ll get nothing until you earn it......just ask PK about that. Prospects are young men first, let them enjoy the experience, they know what’s at stake.

 

[DAChampion]

What about Poehling? He wasn't rushed.

Major injuries and then not enough ice time.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Major injuries and then not enough ice time.

I think he had lots of AHL ice time. And had optertunity last year with the Habs but he failed to grab a bigger role with MSL?

Nothing wrong with his development other than he is just not that good enough. I think his hockey IQ is average at best and this is what held him back. Personally, I think he will be find but he's got a short prime once he's fully matured. Age 25-30 years and he might be a decent 3C.

A better development team would not have gotten better results from Poehling IMO.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

And PK won the Norris under him.

Some players are fine with the tough love approach. We see it didn’t affect Gallagher, that’s basically the way he plays every game. But it didn’t work for daddy’s boy Galchenyuk who likely didn’t want people yelling at him.

PK went through Boucher and Martin before he got MT. He was already playing top pairing. And Markov had missed PK's first two years. PK's Norris is much more the product of getting Markov back. Subban was producing from the getgo with MT.

 

[AHShadow]

And PK won the Norris under him.

Some players are fine with the tough love approach. We see it didn’t affect Gallagher, that’s basically the way he plays every game. But it didn’t work for daddy’s boy Galchenyuk who likely didn’t want people yelling at him.

The problem with most coaches is that they only have one way of coaching players and a lot of them don't have the knowledge of how to play modern hockey.

So when you have a skilled player that doesn't react well to tough love, they don't know what to do with them and think they don't want to listen so guys like MT/Ducharme put them on the 4th line to "teach them a lesson", when that doesn't do anything but destroy their confidence.

You need coaches that are able to treat players differently and identify how they learn and push the right buttons instead of always pressing the same one over and over. I'm optimistic that the combination of Adam Nicholas, MSL and Robidas will help our prospects tremendously because they think this way and also have more skills knowledge than our previous coaches.

 

[cphabs]

Do you consider that they got to where they are today cause they worked hard on and off the ice or was it because of "not being rushed" as the primarily reason?

What about Poehling? He wasn't rushed. Why did others who develop well that were not rushed and Poehling didn't? Different development or different players that worked harder than others?

I think we are dwelling on mismanagement towards a development team too much. It was an issue but it appears it's being pumped into a bigger problem than it is. New management are not ignoring it and it would dumb to ignore it yeah. But at the end of the day, you got to draft players who are obsessed with improving and then that's where a good development team comes in... they check blind spots and work with the player on where they are spending their hard working energy at. But if you as a parent have to constantly remind you kids to do their homework, they are not turning into a rocket scientist.

So yeah, if you consider it a job and not a passion. That's the bigger problem. No development genius is going to develop complacency type people.

That’s why we drafted a Slovakian! And? Absolutely nuked our socialist front office in favor of? They are certainly not complacent or driven by ideology other than risk management and success.

 

[Sorinth]

It did point-wise, but I remember the long debates about him being a unidimensional one-trick pony.

I just don't understand how exactly are you trying to put this blame on coaching and completely absolve the player.

Gally and Chucky made the team at the same time.

Enough said...

As a rookie he was pacing for 56 points at center so no he didn't even develop offensively. All that changed was ice time and % of time at center.

In any case according to you there were long debates about being unidimensional one-trick pony and yet you believe his development was fantastic? How does that make any sense.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

And PK won the Norris under him.

Some players are fine with the tough love approach. We see it didn’t affect Gallagher, that’s basically the way he plays every game. But it didn’t work for daddy’s boy Galchenyuk who likely didn’t want people yelling at him.

PK was already developed as well… these guys all hit their prime under MT. He had a really good young team, and yet we STILL managed to be one of the worst possession teams in the league.

If PK had been a raw rookie under MT, he probably would’ve been out of the league pretty quickly. I have zero doubt he’d have failed.

 

[CHwest]

When they went for Therrien, It was obvious Bergevin was the wrong guy. I blamed Molson because he must have been advised during the interview process. As soon as Therrien was mentioned, Bergevin should have been escorted out of the Bell Center by security.

I often wonder what the hell Bargain Bib said to Molson to convince him that he was competent. I mean you can fool a guy and get hired, but it was pretty obvious after a few seasons that the guy was in way over his head.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

PK was already developed as well… these guys all hit their prime under MT. He had a really good young team, and yet we STILL managed to be one of the worst possession teams in the league.

If PK had been a raw rookie under MT, he probably would’ve been out of the league pretty quickly. I have zero doubt he’d have failed.

Naw, he would have survived Therrien imo, he was just too good at a young age. In fact, PK’s Norris season there was actually strong debate because of his ice time and usage he didn’t deserve it. I actually think he did enough to overcome that as he has no control over ice time/deployments.
MT was doing his best to f*** that up too. Had PK on 2nd pair, limiting his pk minutes etc. he had nothing to do with PK’s development. He’s an sorry sack of shit. Embarrassing to have gutless pukes like him coaching nhl players. He was a terrible tactical coach too, no f***ing clue on how to give advice. Work harder and grind these guys was his answer to everything, no team should have to deal with incompetence like this.

 

[Milhouse40]

Where development starts for an organization?

The day they draft them?
The day they sign them?
The day they enter AHL\NHL?

I think it's the day they are drafted

For the Bergevin's era, there was just none....our prospects were just bandaid for when Bergevin f***ed up, they used them to plug holes. The minors were more used to drop bad NHLer Bergevin hired than trying to build an environment for development. No analytics and no special skill coaches to send kids emails with vids and work on their skills and what they need to improve. There was not a single once of development at any level under Bergevin.

Now we're starting to get a team to work with them.....not just 2 people.....a team.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Naw, he would have survived Therrien imo, he was just too good at a young age. In fact, PK’s Norris season there was actually strong debate because of his ice time and usage he didn’t deserve it. I actually think he did enough to overcome that as he has no control over ice time/deployments.
MT was doing his best to f*** that up too. Had PK on 2nd pair, limiting his pk minutes etc. he had nothing to do with PK’s development. He’s an sorry sack of shit. Embarrassing to have gutless pukes like him coaching nhl players. He was a terrible tactical coach too, no f***ing clue on how to give advice. Work harder and grind these guys was his answer to everything, no team should have to deal with incompetence like this.

Christ, if MT got ahold of him at a young age, he would've been sent to AHL Hell in a handbasket to Satan himself, Sylvain Lefebvre, where he would have been taught to be a third pairing enforcer or something.

 

[dcyhabs]

I often wonder what the hell Bargain Bib said to Molson to convince him that he was competent. I mean you can fool a guy and get hired, but it was pretty obvious after a few seasons that the guy was in way over his head.

Unfortunately Molson is part of the problem. We’ll see how Gorton does and whether ownership messes with him.

 

[Heffyhoof]

Christ, if MT got ahold of him at a young age, he would've been sent to AHL Hell in a handbasket to Satan himself, Sylvain Lefebvre, where he would have been taught to be a third pairing enforcer or something.

Exactly. The true problem with the old style was focusing on a player's weaknesses and never letting them develop their strengths. Most players not named Crosby that have promising offensive talent don't enter the league with those strengths fully developed.

Galchenyuk couldn't be allowed to become a 25-30+ goal, 60+ point centreman who had issues in the defensive zone that he'd then learn to overcome. He had to overcome the defensive weaknesses before he was ever allowed to play to his strengths.

 

[BaseballCoach]

And PK won the Norris under him.

Some players are fine with the tough love approach. We see it didn’t affect Gallagher, that’s basically the way he plays every game. But it didn’t work for daddy’s boy Galchenyuk who likely didn’t want people yelling at him.

Revisionist history. Galchenyuk scored 30 under Therrien at age 21-22 and started the next year near 1 ppg as well until he got hurt. I don't know if he rehabbed properly, but he was finally healthy again a few weeks after returning and by then Julien was the coach and Julien buried him. Preferred Dwight King and other crapola to a proven 16-30 goal scorer (did it 7 straight years).

 

[le_sean]

Revisionist history. Galchenyuk scored 30 under Therrien at age 21-22 and started the next year near 1 ppg as well until he got hurt. I don't know if he rehabbed properly, but he was finally healthy again a few weeks after returning and by then Julien was the coach and Julien buried him. Preferred Dwoght King and other crapola to a proven 16-30 goal scorer (did it 7 straight years).

He scored 30 goals because of an end of a lost season hot streak where he shot 31%. There was nothing great about it. He was still a lousy all around player.