Player Discussion What went wrong with Galchenyuk's and Kotkaniemi's development and progress that won't go wrong with Slafkovsky's?

Belial

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Didn't they win the Cup the second they fired Therrien tho lol
They did.

But the fact that he managed to get an extra young team to the finals just the year before gets lost in the narrative...

My point was not to praise Therrien or something.

It was all about development, and Therrien kinda killed it didn't he?
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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They did.

But the fact that he managed to get an extra young team to the finals just the year before gets lost in the narrative...

My point was not to praise Therrien or something.

It was all about development, and Therrien kinda killed it didn't he?
He didn't kill it. Lemieux made sure they were surrounded by solid vets with tons of experience to put them under their wings. Didn't Malkin also live with Gonchar iirc? Gary Roberts is also known to take young players under his wing. He has a hockey school that does just that.
 

Catanddogguitarrr

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Galchenyuk clearly was mishandled on the ice with the Habs. He should have been given way more time on the first line at center with the best effectives we had.

Galchenyuk clearly had a personnality issue. He was too often out partying and should have take his career more serious.

I feel like for Galchenyuk, it is a mix of the two. Development was not proper and he stopped wanting it. Hockey was not a priority for him anymore and it showed a lot in his game.
I don't get why so many posters are obsessed with Galchenyuk. They revisit history, making him the perfect victim of a bullying regime of Therrien, Bergevin and Lefebvre. They defend him while on the other hand he had personality issue. Partying, drug problem, attitude, not listening to the coach advices, etc. Traded to other teams, didn't last more than one year on each team, he made 7 teams in less than 5 years, etc.

I know the Berg-Therr-Lefeb trio was bad but not to a point where it's entirelly their fault. Not every player under this regime busted like Galchy did. Gallagher didn't, Danault didn't, Lehkonen didn't, etc. It's on Galchy and his attitude and bad habits. He wasn't a kid, he didn't need that extra support every minute of his life to succeed. There is a point when a young player have to organise his life and make it thru. This is the basic life survivance, the plants do it, the wild animals do it, and the humans too.

I would be curious to see those posters who defend Galchy to chaperone a person with a personality problem. That's mission impossible in many cases. It takes a full time team to chaperone a person like that and an hockey team is not a baby sitting enterprise. Even a full time team can't produce a positive improvement at the end.

All this narrative about how he was spoiled and he should have the #1 center spot is a big bulshit. I could agree Eller should had the #2 center spot, with he had sometimes but he got the #3 center spot instead. If Galchy didn't have that #1 C job is probably for a good reason. That reason is bad attitude, drug problem and not taking his carreer seriously.

And for those who take examples of Gonchar, Recchi and others to claim that Crosby, Letang and Malkin didn't fell into drugs and bad habits, that's totally ridiculous. They were different humans being and they didn't have that bad attitude problem to start with. Habs has some good vets like Gionta who were excellent persons to help the young players. I find that narrative offensive to Gionta because as a person, he was not the kind of captain to lead young players to become drug addict. It's all on Galchy if he spoiled his carreer like that. Gallagher and Eller came in the same time, same age and they succeed.
 

Belial

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He didn't kill it. Lemieux made sure they were surrounded by solid vets with tons of experience to put them under their wings. Didn't Malkin also live with Gonchar iirc? Gary Roberts is also known to take young players under his wing. He has a hockey school that does just that.
Honestly, who cares at this point...

I'm just mad they didn't get Gonchar at this point lmao.
 
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durojean

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May 29, 2007
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I don't get why so many posters are obsessed with Galchenyuk. They revisit history, making him the perfect victim of a bullying regime of Therrien, Bergevin and Lefebvre. They defend him while on the other hand he had personality issue. Partying, drug problem, attitude, not listening to the coach advices, etc. Traded to other teams, didn't last more than one year on each team, he made 7 teams in less than 5 years, etc.

I know the Berg-Therr-Lefeb trio was bad but not to a point where it's entirelly their fault. Not every player under this regime busted like Galchy did. Gallagher didn't, Danault didn't, Lehkonen didn't, etc. It's on Galchy and his attitude and bad habits. He wasn't a kid, he didn't need that extra support every minute of his life to succeed. There is a point when a young player have to organise his life and make it thru. This is the basic life survivance, the plants do it, the wild animals do it, and the humans too.

I would be curious to see those posters who defend Galchy to chaperone a person with a personality problem. That's mission impossible in many cases. It takes a full time team to chaperone a person like that and an hockey team is not a baby sitting enterprise. Even a full time team can't produce a positive improvement at the end.

All this narrative about how he was spoiled and he should have the #1 center spot is a big bulshit. I could agree Eller should had the #2 center spot, with he had sometimes but he got the #3 center spot instead. If Galchy didn't have that #1 C job is probably for a good reason. That reason is bad attitude, drug problem and not taking his carreer seriously.

And for those who take examples of Gonchar, Recchi and others to claim that Crosby, Letang and Malkin didn't fell into drugs and bad habits, that's totally ridiculous. They were different humans being and they didn't have that bad attitude problem to start with. Habs has some good vets like Gionta who were excellent persons to help the young players. I find that narrative offensive to Gionta because as a person, he was not the kind of captain to lead young players to become drug addict. It's all on Galchy if he spoiled his carreer like that. Gallagher and Eller came in the same time, same age and they succeed.
I'm pretty sure that is also exactly what Hugo is telling us when they speak about the character and the attitude of a player. They can't really know because they are really young and a lot of people stabilize when they become adult. I do feel they are searching for players that won't fall or are less susceptible to fall into the trap of being rich and one of the biggest celebrity in Montreal.
 

Catanddogguitarrr

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I'm pretty sure that is also exactly what Hugo is telling us when they speak about the character and the attitude of a player. They can't really know because they are really young and a lot of people stabilize when they become adult. I do feel they are searching for players that won't fall or are less susceptible to fall into the trap of being rich and one of the biggest celebrity in Montreal.
Sure. they have to take past mistakes to learn and not repeat the same mistake again. Montreal is named the city of vice. That can't affect players who have self control but some others can fall into that trap. When they draft a player or when they acquire a player by trade, they have to know the personality.
 

LaP

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Get lost man!

Therrien was Crosby's first coach in the NHL and Malkin's and Letang's and Jordan Staal's!

Give me a break with your coaching ruining players bullshit if you really think Therrien was this horrible coach!

You are talking about two of the best centers in NHL history. Those guys would have done 100 points under DD. They are first ballot HOF players and both special players. Letang played one season and a half under MT where he was a non factor in Pens success. He was healthy scratched in playoffs (scf) under MT in favor of an over the hill 35 years old Sydor. He started to be great once MT left.

 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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Therrien developed Crosby.

Lemieux, Roberts, Reechi, Leclair, Sykora, Hossa, Guérin, Fedotenko, Satan, Sydor, Gonchar, Gill.

All vets he played with in between his rookie season and winning the cup.

Who do you think had the most impact on Crosby? Them or Therrien?

Who had the most impact on Caufield in last years's playoffs? Price, Weber, Perry, ect or Ducharme?
 
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BFLO

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KK was the highest rated center in that draft, but he was ranked anywhere from 4th to 12th.

Montreal was desperate for a center and took him 3rd overall. Not quite a reach, but certainly not a consensus top 3 player.

And then they played him right away when he probably could have benefitted from some more seasoning in a lower league.
 

WeThreeKings

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KK was the highest rated center in that draft, but he was ranked anywhere from 4th to 12th.

Montreal was desperate for a center and took him 3rd overall. Not quite a reach, but certainly not a consensus top 3 player.

They tried to trade down but Ottawa was comfortable at 4 and they couldn't go passed Arizona since AZ was taking KK. Which is evidenced by an actual reach in Hayton.
 
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Belial

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You are talking about two of the best centers in NHL history. Those guys would have done 100 points under DD. They are first ballot HOF players and both special players. Letang played one season and a half under MT where he was a non factor in Pens success. He was healthy scratched in playoffs (scf) under MT in favor of an over the hill 35 years old Sydor. He started to be great once MT left.

Again, my point was not to praise Therrien.

My point was that drafting the right guys has way more impact than the so-called right development.
 
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WeThreeKings

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Again, my point was not to praise Therrien.

My point was that drafting the right guys has way more impact than the so-called right development.

If your argument for drafting the right guys are generational talents in Malkin and Crosby?

Like yeah, if Montreal had drafted any of those clear cut generational talents it would be extremely hard to actively bust those guys. They are literally such a small percentage of athletes they are called generational.

But when you actually understand how razor thin the majors are between a NHL player and a career AHLer.. and all of the things that need to go right for a player with tools and ability, but refinement to get a certain point of effectiveness in the best league in the world? You will understand that development is an extremely important part of the recipe.

No development team can develop everyone into a star.
No scouting team can identify a player with every draft pick that is immune to busting and can become a Crosby or a Malkin. Those guys are too rare.
Yes, there is onus on a player. Someone can't develop if they don't actually put the work in.

But we have actual evidence and proof that not only did the Habs do nothing to assist in development, that they didn't have the people in place to support development, that they didn't give development plans to players - but that they actively put barriers in place to their development. Instability at every turn.

They created an environment that made it extremely difficult for anyone to develop. Worse, they didn't hold anyone accountable for it. Not a scout. Not a coach. Not a staff member. The only time anyone was fired was because they didn't like the 'winning' results, never the development results.

The same people were going to be in charge of drafting and developing this pick, this year. After a decade of historically bad results.
 

Belial

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If your argument for drafting the right guys are generational talents in Malkin and Crosby?

Like yeah, if Montreal had drafted any of those clear cut generational talents it would be extremely hard to actively bust those guys. They are literally such a small percentage of athletes they are called generational.

But when you actually understand how razor thin the majors are between a NHL player and a career AHLer.. and all of the things that need to go right for a player with tools and ability, but refinement to get a certain point of effectiveness in the best league in the world? You will understand that development is an extremely important part of the recipe.

No development team can develop everyone into a star.
No scouting team can identify a player with every draft pick that is immune to busting and can become a Crosby or a Malkin. Those guys are too rare.
Yes, there is onus on a player. Someone can't develop if they don't actually put the work in.

But we have actual evidence and proof that not only did the Habs do nothing to assist in development, that they didn't have the people in place to support development, that they didn't give development plans to players - but that they actively put barriers in place to their development. Instability at every turn.

They created an environment that made it extremely difficult for anyone to develop. Worse, they didn't hold anyone accountable for it. Not a scout. Not a coach. Not a staff member. The only time anyone was fired was because they didn't like the 'winning' results, never the development results.

The same people were going to be in charge of drafting and developing this pick, this year. After a decade of historically bad results.
Give me names please, who was drafted and then ruined through horrible development in your opinion.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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What went wrong mostly is that Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi were third overall picks, and the selectors were bad at their job. We don't know if Slaf is going to be a star but he was selected first overall and he's ours now.
There was zero problem with Chuck at 3rd. The problem was hiring a moron who wanted him to play like Brandon Prust.

Zero reason for him to have not been put ahead of Desharnais. Mindblowingly stupid how we used him.
 

LaP

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Again, my point was not to praise Therrien.

My point was that drafting the right guys has way more impact than the so-called right development.
It is for the first round (20 first picks or so). But i disagree with you when it comes to depth players. For guys like Travis Moen or Ben Chiarot development is as important as scouting. And it's not only about developing skills but developing confidence and professionalism too.

A guy like Ryan Poehling has all the tools to become a good bottom 6 players at the NHL level. His main problem is between the ears. He's neither confident or constant in his effort. Now obviously you can blame all the players all the time for not figuring it by themselves. But i strongly believe that when it doesn't work for nobody you have to look at management and coaching staff.

The lack of bottom/mid 6 players who came from our farm during the MB era is disconcerting. There's Lehkonen and Gallagher and that's it. Out of all the guys they drafted (outside the top 3) and young players (20 years old and less) they inherited only Lehkonen and Gallagher made it and played a role. It's a record that is so bad that you can't ignore development. A random number generator with good development would have done better.

Now obviously some guys will say it doesn't matter you can fill those spot on the UFA market, waivers, ... trading is questionable cause if you don't develop **** then you have nothing to trade. But at the end of the day if your entire team is made of spare parts coming from all over the league then it will be super hard to have any kind of team identity.

MB tenure was held together by Price, Subban/Weber and Patch. 3 guys he inherited in their prime. It was just a matter of time before it implodes. If you're not even able to draft a 3rd line players then you wont go anywhere in the long run. And scouting 3rd line player is as much about development as it is about scouting in my very humble opinion.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Galchenyuk at 15 -16 was a dynamic skater and then had knee surgery in his draft year. Montreal gambled that he would fully recover. Regrettably, while he recovered most of his straight line speed, he lost much of his lateral skating and agility. Those limitations have resulted in a once promising player being transformed into a largely irrelevant one.
His usage and a collision with Kopitar is what did that.

He repeatedly produced when used in a first line role. But we HAD to have Desharnais there for some warped reason.
 
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le_sean

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Both drafting and development of that era deserve blame. You can’t put it all on one or the other. Galchenyuk for example was a bad pick. I mean he’s a horrible skater, he’s not a smart player, and he stops moving his feet as soon as the puck is on his stick. That’s like the three worst deficiencies you can have as a centre. A proper development system wouldn’t have fixed this, but they would have likely thought to develop him as a sniping winger PP specialist. Unfortunately he had the additional issue of not giving a shit what people other than daddy said.

I think he’s the best example of Timmins drafting players with very obvious issues and those issues being exacerbated by poor development. They put the onus on the player to figure it out on his own, which fits with the Old Boys Club “man up” attitude that this regime had.
 
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Belial

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It is for the first round (20 first picks or so). But i disagree with you when it comes to depth players. For guys like Travis Moen or Ben Chiarot development is as important as scouting. And it's not only about developing skills but developing confidence and professionalism too.

A guy like Ryan Poehling has all the tools to become a good bottom 6 players at the NHL level. His main problem is between the ears. He's neither confident or constant in his effort. Now obviously you can blame all the players all the time for not figuring it by themselves. But i strongly believe that when it doesn't work for nobody you have to look at management and coaching staff.

The lack of bottom/mid 6 players who came from our farm during the MB era is disconcerting. There's Lehkonen and Gallagher and that's it. Out of all the guys they drafted (outside the top 3) and young players (20 years old and less) they inherited only Lehkonen and Gallagher made it and played a role. It's a record that is so bad that you can't ignore development. A random number generator with good development would have done better.

Now obviously some guys will say it doesn't matter you can fill those spot on the UFA market, waivers, ... trading is questionable cause if you don't develop **** then you have nothing to trade. But at the end of the day if your entire team is made of spare parts coming from all over the league then it will be super hard to have any kind of team identity.

MB tenure was held together by Price, Subban/Weber and Patch. 3 guys he inherited in their prime. It was just a matter of time before it implodes. If you're not even able to draft a 3rd line players then you wont go anywhere in the long run. And scouting 3rd line player is as much about development as it is about scouting in my very humble opinion.
I have no idea why this always has to go to Bergevin/Tim thing!

We're talking about development in general.

Poehling was just the extra wheel at the end of the day.

We have so many prospects pushing that we have no choice but to get rid of some...
 

Habs Halifax

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If you want to avoid the mistakes of the past, you have to diagnose what was wrong.

Things went wrong yes but it's not 100% a development problem. Development team was lacking and we agree there. However, you got to draft players who are willing to put the work in too. It goes hand and hand IMO.
 
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WeThreeKings

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Give me names please, who was drafted and then ruined through horrible development in your opinion.

1. Louis Leblanc - Had a good season before Bergevin took over. Came in to a toxic environment with Lefebvre, there's a good article from Louis on how Lefebvre treated him. They saddled him with grinders on the 3rd line in the AHL and didn't give him offensive opportunity or powerplay time. A complete disgusting handling and mental warfare on the kid. And I was one of the only people who didn't want us to select Leblanc. So even I can accept his development was actively sabotaged.
2. Alexander Avtsin - Why you would bring a 19 year old 5th round pick over into the AHL right away is beyond me. They rushed him to NA and put him at the AHL level too early. On top of that, he got the Lefebvre experience. Got very little ice-time. Wasn't put in positions to succeed. Any time he had any moderate production, he was given different linemates, was scratched, or simply had his minutes reduced.
3. Jarred Tinordi - I didn't like this pick either. But the fact you can't develop a 6'100 defenseman who can skate into a regular bottom pairing defender is f***ing incredible. He was never mean and he was never a fighter. He was rushed to the NHL. Was yo-yoed consistently and the AHL/NHL staff wanted him to be a face puncher which he wasn't. This led to him fighting and getting concussed continuously. Those concussions and fights impacted his confidence immensely.
4. Nathan Beaulieu - Another player who was yo-yod consistently between the NHL and AHL. In the NHL level he looked constantly off balance. His best stretch came when we acquired Gonchar and Gonchar took him under his wing and helped him. Once Gonchar was gone, his place began to deterioate again.
5. Magnus Nygren - They didn't surround him with a support system. He was coming over to North America for the first time and didn't feel safe in Hamilton. What kind of an organization leaves young kids all by themselves in a foreign environment to figure it out on their own?
6. Darren Dietz - This is a lesser case but he had a lot of ability and tools, they never gave him a fair shake in the organization.
7. Morgan Ellis - Similar to Darren Dietz. Ability and some tools to be a NHLer. They didn't give him opportunity and did nothing in his development.
8. Alex Galchenyuk - What didn't they do wrong here? Butted heads with his family. Had no support to help him adjust to the stardom in Montreal. Played him consistently on wing. Punished him for every mistake and allowed Desharnais to make worse mistakes with impunity. Constant mind games. Moved him off center despite every time he played there, he produced and made the team better. Didn't support him with the abuse from his girlfriend. They also rushed him into the NHL since he lost his entire draft year save a few games at the end when it was clear he needed more physical development. Got worse the more they had him and the more they tried to "develop" his defensive game. Didn't provide him with a development plan.
9. Charles Hudon - What does it say about a player when his best year was his rookie season in the AHL and they were unable to make him any better? He stagnated and again they didn't provide a development plan to improve his skating. Actually had some good stretches at the NHL level but just like everyone else, he got pushed to the side for Vets and had his confidence ripped from him.
10. Michael McCarron - I didn't like this pick either but once again, we have the awesome development on display. Comes into the AHL and has a PPG season for 22 games. Gets called up to the NHL. Gets very little ice time, is buried on the 4th line. Sent back down. Starts to find his offensive game again. Called back up. Gets no ice time and is played on the fourth line. Sent back down. Is told by Lefebvre he is never going to put up points in the NHL and they limit him. Just like Tinordi they force him to be a face puncher and takes his lumps, gets hurt from it. Another player that regressed every year under their watch and was a better player before his AHL/NHL time.
11. Jacob De La Rose - Brought over too early to the AHL level. Same situation as McCarron. Called up to the NHL every time he found his offensive touch in the AHL. Then got bottom 6 minutes and limited icetime. Once he struggled there, he would be sent down to find his confidence at the AHL level and be recalled again once he found it.
12. Zach Fucale - You can find an article that outlines specifically his fractured time in the Canadiens organization.
13. Sven Andrighetto - See Hudon, Charles.
14. Nikita Scherbak - You can read the article on him as well. Terrible handling of a young kid. Looked better prior to his time in the AHL. His AHL time had some injuries but Lefebvre gave him the Leblanc playbook and when he didn't, he would move him around all the time. He played Left Wing. Had a serious injury. Came back from injury and was immediately made to play center, a position he hadn't played since he was maybe 15 years old. That didn't work, so they put him to the right wing. Then back to center. Then a call up. To play bottom 6 and get no minutes. Then got sent back down. Then back up. Then sent back down.
15. Noah Juulsen (though injuries also played a part here) - He was rushed into the NHL despite skating deficiencies he needed to fix and they completely neglected his offensive game. Injuries obviously also hindered him so I don't fully blame them but they played a part.
16. Victor Mete - Why is a small, physically undeveloped defenseman who needs to grow a lot of his offensive game playing top pairing with Shea Weber in the NHL? They rushed him, they put him over his head and it was all because Bergevin was incompetent in building a team.
17. Cale Fleury - Rushed into the NHL. No idea why he was playing NHL games so early in his development.
18. Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Rushed into the NHL. Took a project and made no efforts to actually treat him like a project. Needed a skating and physical development paln, didn't get one. Was best in his first season in the NHL and got worse. Got punted to the wing during one of his best stretches for Nate Thompson. Spent positional yo-yoing and in his final year here, was pushed around for shitty veterans and rode the pine in the play-offs, when he came back was one of our best players. No coincidence his best stretches were his rookie season and the bubble when he came back from a long absence being away from the development program.
19. Cam Hillis (though injuries and Covid also played a part here) - Injuries played a part but he was given very little opportunity in his first few years here and now has missed so much development time between the injuries, covid and being scratched. Not fully on the development team but his handling wasn't very good.
20. Mattias Norlinder - Was told he would come to NA for training camp and if he didn't make the NHL team, he'd go back home. They kept him here because of an injury and left him basically sitting for a long period of time. Sent him to the AHL for a conditioning stint and didn't even give him Powerplay time. Played some NHL minutes and didn't get used like an offensive defenseman there either. I still have hope, but this was MB's last developmental f*** you before he left. He was kept in the dark about the whole clause that could keep him in the AHL/NHL and wanted to go back to Sweden if he didn't make it. Hughes/Gorton came on board, gave him two AHL games where he was given a lot of ice time and powerplay, looked really good but ultimately he went back to Sweden where he should have been for the entire year if MB kept his promise.
 

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