Player Discussion What went wrong with Galchenyuk's and Kotkaniemi's development and progress that won't go wrong with Slafkovsky's?

[MoneyManny]

You are very wrong.

Then why didn't he ever repeat it in a career where he played for multiple other teams, systems and coaches?

 

[Kojo]

Then why didn't he ever repeat it in a career where he played for multiple other teams, systems and coaches?

As soon as he wasn't sheltered anymore his NHL career started to collapse.

 

[calder candidate]

The fan and media roll out the red for both KK and Galchenyuk they did ok but they were mostly just keeping there head above the water… the team tried the squeeze the most out of them to early, Galchenyuk got caught in the night life, which is pretty easy to do in Mtl…
KK lose is smile half way through is first season remember he didn’t like being benched, he wasn’t even dress for the last game of the season he definitely bound back in the playoff he was a much better player, but ultimately he didn’t accept being benched for game 7 (which honestly is understandable) It hard to keep people motivated and positive when the team and manage are acting one way to reinforce a message and everyone else Fan, family, agents are given them the opposite feedback… Or when you put them in a situation the where they can’t really win and than blame them when they fail…

 

[BaseballCoach]

He scored 30 goals because of an end of a lost season hot streak where he shot 31%. There was nothing great about it. He was still a lousy all around player.

He might not have been a great two-way player, but he had hit a new level offensively at age 22, and was playing center. He was easily among the top 5 players of his draft year. At the end of his years here (April 2018), he was SECOND in this draft year for career points. Heck, even today, after three years in the wilderness, he is still 5th!

It is just not fair to put him in the same boat as Kotkaniemi. AG27 paced 16 or more goals in every one of his first 7 NHL seasons, and 4 times in 5 years, over 20.

His knee injury and possible problems dealing with it changed his czreer, but as a young player, he was never overmatched in the league like KK often looked.

 

[BaseballCoach]

The fan and media roll out the red for both KK and Galchenyuk they did ok but they were mostly just keeping there head above the water… the team tried the squeeze the most out of them to early, Galchenyuk got caught in the night life, which is pretty easy to do in Mtl…
KK lose is smile half way through is first season remember he didn’t like being benched, he wasn’t even dress for the last game of the season he definitely bound back in the playoff he was a much better player, but ultimately he didn’t accept being benched for game 7 (which honestly is understandable) It hard to keep people motivated and positive when the team and manage are acting one way to reinforce a message and everyone else Fan, family, agents are given them the opposite feedback… Or when you put them in a situation the where they can’t really win and than blame them when they fail…

You have some facts wrong.

We had one game seven during KK's 3 years here, and he played in it, versus the Leafs after scoring the OT winner two nights before.

His rookie season, he played the last game of the season, the night that Poehling scored his four goals and KK was hugging him every time.

I do agree he was mismanaged here, but his first year in Carolina did not bust records either.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Where development starts for an organization?

The day they draft them?
The day they sign them?
The day they enter AHL\NHL?

I think it's the day they are drafted

For the Bergevin's era, there was just none....our prospects were just bandaid for when Bergevin f***ed up, they used them to plug holes. The minors were more used to drop bad NHLer Bergevin hired than trying to build an environment for development. No analytics and no special skill coaches to send kids emails with vids and work on their skills and what they need to improve. There was not a single once of development at any level under Bergevin.

Now we're starting to get a team to work with them.....not just 2 people.....a team.

For years many of us kept pointing out that there is no salary cap on scouting, coaching and development, and FINALLY there are people listening.

 

[Zilo44]

Naw they were actively campaigning against him. I need to stop discussing the two of them. The more I think about what they did to this franchise the more angry I get.

For the first time in my life I couldn’t watch the Therrien coached Habs. I went from watching every single game for years to a handful under this group. It started with Therrien and ended with Bergevin. I got back into a bit when Julien returned because I was excited to have anyone aside from Michel running the team, but I found Julien to be more of the same except well meaning and respectful. Bergevin nearly ruined my Habs fandom forever. I didn’t switch to another team. I just jumped on the Raps/Jays bandwagon because they were at least fun to watch. MSL and Hugo have me excited to be Habs fan again. At least we know they have a plan and will pick a direction. Whether it works remains to be seen, but they’re going to do their best and they’re all smart dudes.

Same thing here. Huge Habs fan from 2006 to 2018 and then I got sick of Bergevin. Since 2018, I’ve followed the NFL a lot and I’m back since Bergevin was fired.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Then why didn't he ever repeat it in a career where he played for multiple other teams, systems and coaches?

The 2015-16 season was the most frustrated I’ve been as a fan. We started the year invincible. Price gets hurt and we collapse… but it didn’t have to be that way. The team just could not score.

Chuck was quietly producing well despite getting used in lesser minutes. We finally put him on the first after we’re out of a spot and he becomes a top five scorer in the NHL. I wanted to scream. Then he continues his pace to start the next year and gets hurt. He was never the same afterwards.

And of course we did little to help him too. He comes back, we gave him a couple of games on the first line and then it was back to third line wing…

So yeah, there are a few reasons. Injuries are one. Misuse early in his career another. And as people pointed out earlier, there were likely some lifestyle issues. Much of this could’ve been fixed but injuries (which he continued to rack up later on) were a big factor. So, I wouldn’t blame coaching for injury. The usage I’d give them an F. As for lifestyle, obviously that’s on the player… however a good coach can help with that too. Against though, we decided to get a bully and not return Robinson’s call. Just flat out dumb.

And again, our biggest problem from 2014-17 was that we couldn’t score. And we absolutely insisted on playing lesser players over better ones. I won’t even get into how MT tried to put DeLaRose over Eller…

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

As soon as he wasn't sheltered anymore his NHL career started to collapse.

When used as our number one he was a point per game player. And back then that was among the best in the league.

Now to be fair, we had one of the best foursomes in the league a center could play with so that definitely helped but… we didn’t use him there. We used Desharnais who could only manage 60 at his absolute best. f***ing horrible.

One of the things MT did that doesn’t really get talked about enough was how he really fractured the dressing room. He hated Eller, Chuck, Subban… loved Max, Gallagher. He not only didn’t help to create a team environment, he actively worked to fracture it.

Therrien was absolute poison.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...I don't honestly get why we Habs fans want to continue to litigate the Galchenyuk & Kotkaniemi picks...we all know why both failed to "make it" here and, while the players have to certainly take some responsibility for their failures, most of the issues in both cases was horrid mismanagement and horrid development by a litany of Management/Coaching personnel that were just plain ol' terrible at their jobs, period...so far, our new Management/Coaching seems to have at least learned some of the lessons of the past...let's hope, cuz we have a very deep prospect pool that could turn this team around in short order...

 

[CHfan1]

If Ducharme was still coach Caufield’s name would be in the title of this thread as well.

Putting players in the right environment and position to succeed has a huge part in their development, including giving them confidence they can succeed. The Bergevin regime never showed they understood this.

 

[dcyhabs]

If tough-love coaching actually worked well in the long term then they wouldn't get fired every few years which is what happened with them no matter the generation.

Even a guy like Pacioretty who says he loved it under Therrien, well he also has great things to say about Cunneyworth who didn't have that that yell all the time approach. I'm pretty sure if you google you'll find an article about how Cunneyworth's soft-touchy-feely approach helped turn Pacioretty into an NHL player. And in vegas he said the positive environment was a big factor in him turning it around and producing.

At the end of the day even when a kick in the butt "works" it doesn't mean that it was the only way to get the player going.

Most players, at least relatively smart players, aren't going to bash coaches no matter how bad they were. The hockey old boys club doesn't have a lot of patience with players who complain, and considering the limited number of coaches players never know when they will end up working with that coach again.

Therrien is pretty vindictive, and he could end up as an assistant pretty much anywhere, including international tournaments. Still possible he gets a head coaching job at some point.

Anything non-specific ("he was a great coach, he fixed how I approached this situation", or "he was a great coach, he taught me this drill that I do every day that improved my game") positive statements about a coach by a player can be ignored. You have to be careful with the negatives, too, but maybe less so.

 

[habsgirl5000]

I don't believe development within the organization was, or has been, a serious issue,

With the exception of Caufield and Sergachev, the players drafted in the past 10-12 years have just not been any good to begin with,

The last time we drafted well was 2007, big Mac, patches, and PK,

Since then the drafting has just been terrible, and I don't think anything changed this draft,

I'm not expecting anything more from Slaf than what chucky was,

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

I don't believe development within the organization was, or has been, a serious issue,

With the exception of Caufield and Sergachev, the players drafted in the past 10-12 years have just not been any good to begin with,

The last time we drafted well was 2007, big Mac, patches, and PK,

Since then the drafting has just been terrible,

...oh, it's both...development was just as terrible as drafting was...a Perfect Storm of Moronity...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

...oh, it's both...development was just as terrible as drafting was...a Perfect Storm of Moronity...

Our development was far worse than our drafting. And I am certain that now that the clownshow has left town, we’ll see some of Timmins’ last picks pan out. Fortunately it was done in time to save Caufield.

Timmins was far from perfect but he was successful before the clown car showed up.

 

[cphabs]

Our development was far worse than our drafting. And I am certain that now that the clownshow has left town, we’ll see some of Timmins’ last picks pan out. Fortunately it was done in time to save Caufield.

Bravo!

 

[DAChampion]

I am certain that now that the clownshow has left town, we’ll see some of Timmins’ last picks pan out.

I wonder.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I wonder.

We already have Caufield as the example. We did the exact same same thing with Chuck that we were doing with CC. The difference is that the coach was fired in time.

 

[cphabs]

We already have Caufield as the example. We did the exact same same thing with Chuck that we were doing with CC. The difference is that the coach was fired in time.

Yep! Bravo

 

[DAChampion]

We already have Caufield as the example. We did the exact same same thing with Chuck that we were doing with CC. The difference is that the coach was fired in time.

I think that for the argument to hold there would need to be at least three examples.

 

[Hins77]

Developpement is so overrating here…. There is bust everywhere. Potential of KK and chucky were limited. Thats it. Why Suzuki performed well on a fourth line with Nate thompson? He played under the same developpement group than KK and chucky and he is performing well right now. Romanov is doing well too , caufield, Evans…. 90% of the developpement of players remains to their own. 10%, management/developpement group. If Slaf he is an hockey player, he is gonna perform well. Did we rush Caufield? No. Youngs players have tough moments sometimes in their beginning of their career but facing adversity is okay. Caufield will just getting better

 

[Beer and Chips]

Nothing. The new management hasn't proven anything yet, a lot of nice words and ideas.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think that for the argument to hold there would need to be at least three examples.

Timmins drafted Price, Subban, Max and tons of good support players.

New regime comes in and:

Leblanc
Galchenyuk
KK

All fall below expectations or fail altogether. And that was the case for pretty much everyone.

Honestly give me examples of prospects who made it as prospects under SL/Therrien/Julien apart from Gallagher. Suzuki maybe but he didn’t spend a lot of time under that regime. Sergachev was lucky enough to be traded away…

 

[Just this once]

They were both rushed.
Galchenyuk, he should have played lower leagues with big minutes at center. Learn the position, improve his cardio and possibly his skating. He might have also not have had the off ice issues that basically made Bergevin trade him.
I think he could have been a decent 2c. If not, make him a wing PP specialist, but the NHL is a bad place to try those things out.
KK, I think he took things for granted. Burning a couple years of his contract is why he isn't here anymore. He would have needed to learn to be a PK specialist and be a solid 3c center. Also needs urgently to use a smaller stick and lower his center of gravity. It would make him more solid on his skates and more powerful on the boards. If he keeps cheating with his size, he will likely not get better, and will be prone to injuries.

There is no reason Slav. won't have the same issues. He can also be rushed. I don't know him much, but one possibility is that people will want him to be a goal scorer as he did in the tournament. So they will expect a 30 goal scorer or something similar. He might want to play finesse, trying to do everything and try and cut to the center, a bit like Anderson does with not much success. I think it would be better for him to learn to be a power forward, be good along the boards, help on the face offs and all those little things, instead of wanting to score or make plays. More Gallagher, less Anderson. The production should follow naturally. Burning his contract at the beginning of a reconstruct would be bad too, obviously.

So yeah, there is no reason to believe this time rushing will be good, unless he has his role figured out and it works right off the bat, and he can play regular second line at least. I just don't think it's the case right now. He looks more like a third line guy with potential.

 

[Wats]

I swear there was a similar thread about Kotkaniemi in 2018 and people saying he's different than Galchenyuk. People saying similar things, different player, no such thing as rushing, etc. Hopefully Slafkovsky doesn't join this duo...it really will be a heartbreak as a Habs fan.

What Habs do with Slaf will give us a glimpse of whether things will actually change/stay the same. I really hope we are going to see something different but too jaded to believe it before seeing some results.

For me, I don't care if he looks NHL ready in preseason (same with Guhle/Barron). That's not enough...we have already seen this with other guys. Unless he's actually playing like a top 6 player, he should be sent down to AHL after a 9 game stint. Let the ELC slide and let him carry Laval to playoff success. I want Guhle/Slafkovsky/Barron/Primeau/Mysak/Heineman/Ylonen/Xhekaj/Norlinder/etc all to have success together and build chemistry. Perfect world, Slaf/Guhle/Primeau all compete for best player in their position in AHL and Laval has deep run winning Calder Cup.

Last time Habs let something like that happened:
09/10: Hamilton Bulldogs 2009-10 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com
06/07: Hamilton Bulldogs 2006-07 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com


Lot of NHLers that played on these rosters. Can't say the same with the AHL teams under Bergevin.