Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[notbias]

It takes a special kind of dumb to lose to a team that has your own Zamboni driver in their net.
There are no words to describe this.

Is it worse than not being able to score on an accountant?

I assume anyone who brings up not being able to beat a Zamboni driver didn't watch the game.

Carolina destroyed Toronto, not the goalie.

 

[Racer88]

Is it worse than not being able to score on an accountant?

I assume anyone who brings up not being able to beat a Zamboni driver didn't watch the game.

Carolina destroyed Toronto, not the goalie.

I watched every minute of the game and the big 4 should be embarrassed. I don’t care how well Carolina played. With those 4 we should have got decent shots on net or does it not even matter who the other team has in net because our big 4 stars can’t get it done.

 

[notbias]

I watched every minute of the game and the big 4 should be embarrassed. I don’t care how well Carolina played. With those 4 we should have got decent shots on net or does it not even matter who the other team has in net because our big 4 stars can’t get it done.

People are weirdly obsessed with this game... Carolina played a near flawless game when their goalies got injured, the Leafs sucked, it was a random regular season game that people obsess over.

They scored on 20% of their shots against Ayers, and the only reason it gets brought up is because people who enjoy hating on the Leafs think it is embarrassing... Winnipeg got shut out by an accountant, no one cares.

I think the fans took this a lot more seriously than anyone in the NHL, it is weird how this was such an issue when the regular season doesn't matter.

 

[Racer88]

People are weirdly obsessed with this game... Carolina played a near flawless game when their goalies got injured, the Leafs sucked, it was a random regular season game that people obsess over.

They scored on 20% of their shots against Ayers, and the only reason it gets brought up is because people who enjoy hating on the Leafs think it is embarrassing... Winnipeg got shut out by an accountant, no one cares.

I think the fans took this a lot more seriously than anyone in the NHL, it is weird how this was such an issue when the regular season doesn't matter.

I don’t enjoy hating on the leafs. I wish we had a better team but we don’t. As far as Winnipeg getting beat by an accountant, is that who we want to be compared to?
If the Leafs players were not embarrassed by that debacle they it just shows they do not have the Will to win that they need. You can bet your ass that Crosby would be pissed getting beat like that but the Leafs and some fans just laugh it off. If they were a team that had shown either before that game or since that they could get the job done we wouldn’t be having this conversation but they are not .
There is an entire list of excuses that some posters trot out for every occasion.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There is no evidence a Leaf player actually received an offer sheet.

Marner confirmed it.

He kept giving Petan chance after chance to no avail....it was just ridiculous.

He played a grand total of 28 regular season games as a depth injury fill-in. Dubas didn't really seem to care about him, but for some reason, some seem really bothered by the fact that one of many fringe players we've had over the past decade wasn't their personally preferred height.

I guess it must have more of a disadvantage to the Leafs

No, it just wasn't the advantage that Mess was attempting to represent it as.

 

[notbias]

I don’t enjoy hating on the leafs. I wish we had a better team but we don’t. As far as Winnipeg getting beat by an accountant, is that who we want to be compared to?
If the Leafs players were not embarrassed by that debacle they it just shows they do not have the Will to win that they need. You can bet your ass that Crosby would be pissed getting beat like that but the Leafs and some fans just laugh it off. If they were a team that had shown either before that game or since that they could get the job done we wouldn’t be having this conversation but they are not .
There is an entire list of excuses that some posters trot out for every occasion.

Just so I understand, regular season is important now?

And it isn't an excuse, but it is a single game where they never looked good... it is nothing more than fodder for the miserable fans we have and haters.

 

[Nineteen67]

People are weirdly obsessed with this game... Carolina played a near flawless game when their goalies got injured, the Leafs sucked, it was a random regular season game that people obsess over.

They scored on 20% of their shots against Ayers, and the only reason it gets brought up is because people who enjoy hating on the Leafs think it is embarrassing... Winnipeg got shut out by an accountant, no one cares.

I think the fans took this a lot more seriously than anyone in the NHL, it is weird how this was such an issue when the regular season doesn't matter.

Of course they are interested in the game. It was historical to have an amateur step in and beat an NHL team. It was embarrassing for the team but not as bad as the night Tavares returned to Long Island. That game really showed their character.

 

[notbias]

There is no evidence a Leaf player actually received an offer sheet. If Dubas was swayed by the threat of a possible offer sheet, then he got played.

Marner received 2, confirmed by his agent.

Nylander was going to receive one and Leafs had to up their offer because of it, confirmed by the article everyone keeps quoting as fact.

Friedman said rumours were that Matthews was receiving one from Arizona.

But yep, no evidence.

 

[Nineteen67]

They never got far enough to receive an actual offer sheet. If they did and Dubas didn’t force their hand he’s worse than we all think he is.

 

[Buds17]

I think the cutoff for biggest mistake is whatever moves have been made since the Matthews draft. I do agree though that Fletcher trying to recapture the magic of '93 by bringing back Clark was dumb. Not the worst move of the decade but really unnecessary and desperate.

I was actually referencing the trade which sent him away to QUE (and living up to my name on here)!

I'd still refer to the losses against CBJ and MTL as the biggest mistakes or wasted opportunities.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner received 2, confirmed by his agent.

Nylander was going to receive one and Leafs had to up their offer because of it, confirmed by the article everyone keeps quoting as fact.

Friedman said rumours were that Matthews was receiving one from Arizona.

But yep, no evidence.

So Marner's agent said he got two offer sheets, but didn't sign either, so there is nothing on record?

Someone said Nylander was going to receive one, but he didn't, so there's nothing in record?

Someone said there were rumors that Matthews might be receiving one, but he didn't, so there's nothing on record?

Have I got that right?

 

[notbias]

So Marner's agent said he got two offer sheets, but didn't sign either, so there is nothing on record?

Someone said Nylander was going to receive one, but he didn't, so there's nothing in record?

Someone said there were rumors that Matthews might be receiving one, but he didn't, so there's nothing on record?

Have I got that right?

The sources are Marner's agent, Freidman, and the article that everyone is saying is true...

I think we can assume those things are true, but if you want to go around arguing that unless there is a record of it, it didn't happen, I'd love for you to do that on these boards, you're going to be busy though, lot's of fan fiction or citing of rumours here.

 

[socko]

If they sent the Marner offer sheet to me by mistake. I would forge his signature on there and send it back.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The sources are Marner's agent, Freidman, and the article that everyone is saying is true...

I think we can assume those things are true, but if you want to go around arguing that unless there is a record of it, it didn't happen, I'd love for you to do that on these boards, you're going to be busy though, lot's of fan fiction or citing of rumours here.

None of those sources provided evidence, particularly in the form of a signed offer sheet. None were either the Leafs management or another team's management.

I'm not saying they didn't happen (or almost happen or maybe almost happen) - just that we have no evidence beyond "he said".

I'm well aware that all kinds of rumors and speculation are taken for gospel here, and everywhere else on the internet. All I can do is try to point out a few if the worst instances.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Marner confirmed it.

Marner received 2, confirmed by his agent.

Nylander was going to receive one and Leafs had to up their offer because of it, confirmed by the article everyone keeps quoting as fact.

Friedman said rumours were that Matthews was receiving one from Arizona.

But yep, no evidence.

Of course, Marner and his agent, 100% unbiased sources! "Nylander was going to receive one" and "Matthews was receiving one from Arizona" is interesting phrasing. I was going to win the lottery but then Dubas convinced me to change three numbers. Ask my agent, he'll confirm it!

A grand total of five offer sheets since the lockout, but somehow one team got three....wait, I mean one team WAS GETTING three in less than a year. Who would be stupid enough to believe that?

The agent poll that named Dubas their favourite GM is now more believable to me.

 

[Yorkshire Leaf]

For me the recent ones were:

Making the playoff in 2016-17 (& 2017/18????) should have been another tank year, leading to a high pick and hopefully a top quality defenceman.

Throwing high picks around at the trade deadline for very mediocre rentals.

Signing JT, a very good player, but the timing wasn’t right for this team. Signing him signalled we were contending and lead to throwing picks around like confetti trying to make it happen. It also made the team very unbalanced salary wise and good depth players were lost because of it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Of course, Marner and his agent, 100% unbiased sources!

If you don't believe the person it actually happened to publicly broadcasting it to the world, especially after there is no longer any negotiation benefit, and they explicitly say that the team directly told Dubas themselves, then I don't know who you would believe.

A grand total of five offer sheets since the lockout, but somehow one team got three...

You seem to be mixing up signed offer sheets and received offer sheets. There have been more than five received offer sheets since the lockout.
And it shouldn't exactly be surprising that some of the best young players in the entire cap era were offer sheet targets.

 

[Racer88]

Just so I understand, regular season is important now?

And it isn't an excuse, but it is a single game where they never looked good... it is nothing more than fodder for the miserable fans we have and haters.

All the games are important as they are being played, however without playoff success the season become a disappointment.
Thruout the season different games and different scenarios have different levels of importance and expectation.
That game has nothing to do with haters and they should have been totally embarrassed and yes it is an excuse right up there with we got “goalied” only the opposite

If you don't believe the person it actually happened to publicly broadcasting it to the world, especially after there is no longer any negotiation benefit, and they explicitly say that the team directly told Dubas themselves, then I don't know who you would believe.

You seem to be mixing up signed offer sheets and received offer sheets. There have been more than five received offer sheets since the lockout.
And it shouldn't exactly be surprising that some of the best young players in the entire cap era were offer sheet targets.

Unless he signs it they are meaningless and in no way shoukd have put any pressure on Dubas

 

[notbias]

Of course, Marner and his agent, 100% unbiased sources! "Nylander was going to receive one" and "Matthews was receiving one from Arizona" is interesting phrasing. I was going to win the lottery but then Dubas convinced me to change three numbers. Ask my agent, he'll confirm it!

A grand total of five offer sheets since the lockout, but somehow one team got three....wait, I mean one team WAS GETTING three in less than a year. Who would be stupid enough to believe that?

The agent poll that named Dubas their favourite GM is now more believable to me.

Just because you don't like the information doesn't make it false.

Unfortunately, all we have to go off of is rumours from multiple league sources and someone who received the offers, I think that is more credible than faceless losers on this board not liking the information so they keep saying it must be fake.

Also, unlikely does not mean something is untrue, it is stupid to think that.

 

[notbias]

All the games are important as they are being played, however without playoff success the season become a disappointment.
Thruout the season different games and different scenarios have different levels of importance and expectation.
That game has nothing to do with haters and they should have been totally embarrassed and yes it is an excuse right up there with we got “goalied” only the opposite

I fail to see the importance of that game outside of the talking points, it wasn't any more important than the previous game or the game after.

Carolina outplaying Toronto is what happened, not Ayers playing well.

Unless he signs it they are meaningless and in no way shoukd have put any pressure on Dubas

Can offer sheets only be submitted once?

If I want to work somewhere and get an offer from another company, I'd let my employer know and try to figure it out, but if my employer doesn't come up with a number I deem fair, I'd leave for the other company, is that not possible in this situation?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Unless he signs it they are meaningless and in no way shoukd have put any pressure on Dubas

That's obviously an unrealistic expectation.

 

[Mess]

Unless he signs it they are meaningless and in no way should have put any pressure on Dubas

There is very little difference between an unsigned offer sheet and toilet paper. You can flush both as meaningless.

Marner was a restricted free agent coming out of his 3-year entry level contract and Leafs owned his rights for the next 4 years, where the player as per CBA has 3 valid options.

1) Sit out and withhold service but unpaid. (like Nylander did).
2) Take what the team is offering as seen as fair market value based on other RFA player comparables in the industry.
3) Sign a valid offer sheet that must be approved by the NHL, as there are rules both for Salary Cap compliance to fit that player under your Cap, and draft pick compensation (ie the draft picks must be your own teams, not acquired ones), as well as meeting a valid player contract rules as per CBA.

How gullible and naive must a greenhorn GM be if another GM simply says "I'm thinking about a offer sheet for Marner" and his current GM panics and overpays Marner, and it blows up Leafs salary simply by making a meaningless throwaway comment in the media?

You knew clever experienced player agents were going to abuse a Clueless Dubas in contract talks even with no leverage to their own advantage, and say we'll take option #4) Pretend we will sign an OS even if its just the rumour of one or not, and have the GM capitualte to all our demands and get Marner a Restricted FA at Unrestrited FA contract prices.

PS. A valid signed offer sheet (at that time) for $10.4 mil AAV or above would have required the signing team to manditorily surrender 4 X 1st round draft picks over the course of the next 5 years,

 

[Dekes For Days]

There is very little difference between an unsigned offer sheet and toilet paper. You can flush both as meaningless.

Obviously, somebody having other paths to get the contract they want is going to impact any negotiation.

How gullible and naive must a greenhorn GM be if another GM simply says "I'm thinking about a offer sheet for Marner" and his current GM panics and overpays Marner

What actually happened was two GMs sent Marner an actual offer sheet, at least one went and directly told Dubas about it, and Dubas still managed to get Marner - who had also been suppressed and abused by his coach and been lied to and had money stolen from him by his previous GM - to sign a contract consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts.

You knew clever experienced player agents were going to abuse a Clueless Dubas in contract talks even with no leverage to their own advantage

Top tier players that are incredibly impactful to the team's success have a ton of leverage against every GM.
Even more-so when they have teams offer sheeting them and could force the contract they want.

PS. A valid signed offer sheet (at that time) for $10.4 mil AAV or above would have required the signing team to manditorily surrender 4 X 1st round draft picks over the course of the next 5 years,

That is also untrue. The compensation line was 10.568m. A team could have forced a 10.568m x 5 years contract - which would have been worse for us - and not pay four 1sts. And things would have gotten even more messy as we went into the season and the cap hit division on a contract starts getting wonky.

 

[IPS]

 

[Stephen]

There is very little difference between an unsigned offer sheet and toilet paper. You can flush both as meaningless.

Marner was a restricted free agent coming out of his 3-year entry level contract and Leafs owned his rights for the next 4 years, where the player as per CBA has 3 valid options.

1) Sit out and withhold service but unpaid. (like Nylander did).
2) Take what the team is offering as seen as fair market value based on other RFA player comparables in the industry.
3) Sign a valid offer sheet that must be approved by the NHL, as there are rules both for Salary Cap compliance to fit that player under your Cap, and draft pick compensation (ie the draft picks must be your own teams, not acquired ones), as well as meeting a valid player contract rules as per CBA.

How gullible and naive must a greenhorn GM be if another GM simply says "I'm thinking about a offer sheet for Marner" and his current GM panics and overpays Marner, and it blows up Leafs salary simply by making a meaningless throwaway comment in the media?

You knew clever experienced player agents were going to abuse a Clueless Dubas in contract talks even with no leverage to their own advantage, and say we'll take option #4) Pretend we will sign an OS even if its just the rumour of one or not, and have the GM capitualte to all our demands and get Marner a Restricted FA at Unrestrited FA contract prices.

PS. A valid signed offer sheet (at that time) for $10.4 mil AAV or above would have required the signing team to manditorily surrender 4 X 1st round draft picks over the course of the next 5 years,

All this offer sheet talk just reinforces the fact that Dubas failed to protect his asset ahead of time by not taking care of the RFA contracts as early as possible, as he recently admitted. Which invalidates his 2018 maxim of “if you have time, use it” as he supposedly learned sitting at Lou’s feet because by September 2019 he was negotiating like there was a gun held to his head.

Just to put a bow on how utterly poorly the contracts were negotiated and the complete lack of intellectual framework, Dubas both completely misunderstood the inflationary nature of contracts by delaying negotiations on Matthews and Marner.

Did he expect their production to go down over time, or their asks to go down over time by delaying? Then once he overpaid, he post rationalized that everything would amortize over time with an endlessly rising cap. So why not just lock in lower and earlier? Makes. No. Sense.

Finally, to kick a dead horse once more, Dubas finally “learned his lesson” and ended up locking in Kapanen and Johnsson at wildly inflated prices at a combined cap hit of almost $7 million in 2019. Presumably to avoid another round of RFA calamities. This ended up bringing the Marleau contract to a head which then forced Toronto to get rid of the Jarvis pick and lose Brown to dump Zaitsev. Johnsson and Kapanen were so mediocre he dumped them a year after clearing the deck of the Marleau deal.

You can see clear as day what the original sin did to this era of the Leafs build. One mistake compounding on another, paying out more money here and there on every transaction. Just utter JFJ level incompetence.