Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[Stephen]

Do you mind ranking them on the defensive side of the game as well?

Marner is overpaid, yes.

Sure we can rank them all defensively. Then we can move onto championship counts, scoring titles and individual trophies.

 

[notbias]

Sure we can rank them all defensively. Then we can move onto championship counts, scoring titles and individual trophies.

Seems weird to bring up team awards, and points were already discussed.

Sure, I guess do individual awards not involving points (Selke maybe) while you rank them defensively.

Not sure why you deflected and then got super defensive though, I just was curious how you rank them defensively and if that could maybe have some reflection on their performance during their contracts... you were discussing only offense before, was just asking.

 

[IPS]

Yes, very successful indeed. Definitely the adjective I’d use to describe Marner in the post-season.

Marchment has been gone farther than any Dubas team so far from what I can tell.

Your avatar is so applicable to Dekes and Notbias in this thread.

 

[Racer88]

94 points also needs to be asterisked. A 22 year old who puts up 94 points as Marner did in 2019 projects to be even more productive as he enters his prime. So you're paying that player to be getting incrementally better as the 6 year contract progresses. We haven't even seen that out of Marner.

Marner essentially flat lined at 22

 

[Stephen]

Seems weird to bring up team awards, and points were already discussed.

Sure, I guess do individual awards not involving points (Selke maybe) while you rank them defensively.

Not sure why you deflected and then got super defensive though, I just was curious how you rank them defensively and if that could maybe have some reflection on their performance during their contracts... you were discussing only offense before, was just asking.

Let's put it this way. Marner could have won every Selke Trophy between 2020 and 2024 and I would still prefer to take Kucherov's multiple Stanley Cups, 120 and 140 point seasons and Art Rosses, Pastrnak's scoring titles and 100+ point finishes, Rantanen's multiple 100 point seasons, 50 goal campaign and Stanley Cup, and Matthew Tkachuk's 100 points and Stanley Cup in a heartbeat.

There's nothing about Marner's defensive game that would justify him making over a million dollars more than any of those players.

 

[notbias]

Let's put it this way. Marner could have won every Selke Trophy between 2020 and 2024 and I would still prefer to take Kucherov's multiple Stanley Cups, 120 and 140 point seasons and Art Rosses, Pastrnak's scoring titles and 100+ point finishes, Rantanen's multiple 100 point seasons, 50 goal campaign and Stanley Cup, and Matthew Tkachuk's 100 points and Stanley Cup in a heartbeat.

There's nothing about Marner's defensive game that would justify him making over a million dollars more than any of those players.

Listing team accomplishments under a player's accomplishments is not logical and a very weak argument.

No one asked you to pick who you'd like to take by the way.

You are insanely defensive over me asking you to rank a bunch of players defensively after doing it offensively.

Just FYI, Rantanen's multiple hundred points season (both in the last three years) and Pastrnak's multiple hundred points years (both in the last three years) have placed them tied with Marner over the last three years for P/GP.

What scoring titles (plural) has Pastrnak won? He tied for a Rocket if I am not mistaken.

I'm not even arguing Marner is better than these players, but they are certainly all in the same tier, except for Kucherov.

 

[Gabriel426]

Why is every thread ends up being a Marner discussion?
Honestly, can MM’s PR and security team stop invading different threads.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Which one of our Betas signed an offer sheet?
Bc I really don’t recall any one of them did.
Willie sat till last day, MM waited till before training camp and AM was signed mid season.

Last time I checked and pls correct me if I am wrong. Aho signed an offer sheet with the Habs and Canes matched it to avoid Aho going to the Habs. Did Dubas and the Leafs matched a signed Offer sheet?

There is no evidence a Leaf player actually received an offer sheet. If Dubas was swayed by the threat of a possible offer sheet, then he got played.

 

[Racer88]

Why is every thread ends up being a Marner discussion?
Honestly, can MM’s PR and security team stop invading different threads.

Because he is the straw that stirs the summer drink

 

[francis246]

Marner essentially flat lined at 22

I don’t really think that’s fair to say. While I do agree Marner’s goal scoring hasn’t seen a legit increase and that’s disappointing, you have to look at the whole picture. 2021/22 he missed 10 games. He would have passed 100 points easily if he didn’t get injured. He had 97 points in 72 games. That’s pretty incredible. 35 goals that year too. We can’t just ignore that he missed games due to injury. Also covid years, so you have to pro rate those years and use pacing numbers. I don’t think he’s flat lined in terms of overall development. He’s produced as expected in regular season.

I’d like to see him take the next step in terms of goal scoring. And playoff goal scoring but Marner’s regular season production hasn’t been an issue. It’s the playoff production.

I hope he can get back to that 21/22 season where he was shooting a lot.

 

[TMLAM34]

Biggest mistake was naming Dubas the general manager.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Being in a bubble does not mean "home cooking and sleeping in their own beds". It means being isolated in a hotel, eating restaurant/catered food, and playing in an empty arena.

I guess it must have more of a disadvantage to the Leafs because they knew they were so close to their condos and the very same restaurants that it hurt us even more and that's why we then lost to the CBJ...

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

He traded Marchment for that useless plug Malgin. Everyone knew Malgin was gonna do shit but Dumbas decided we didn’t need the skill set a guy like Marchment would bring.

It was a pointless shot to take and it ended up even worse than expected. Unfortunately for us, that move pales in comparison to his even shittier transactions. The guy’s resume is such trash, that move isn’t even close to being near the top.

It really infuriated me that we gave away the only power forward in the pipeline for a marginal tiny player....it's like he wanted to prove his point that small is good that he just did stupid things. He kept giving Petan chance after chance to no avail....it was just ridiculous.

 

[Nineteen67]

It really infuriated me that we gave away the only power forward in the pipeline for a marginal tiny player....it's like he wanted to prove his point that small is good that he just did stupid things. He kept giving Petan chance after chance to no avail....it was just ridiculous.

You never know how a prospect will turn out, but you knew Petan and Malgin were not what they needed.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Burke not trading Schenn for Hedman.

Between making the Kessel trade, and not making this trade, Burke has the honour of having two franchise crippling mistakes on his resume during his tenure here. Burke was a horrible GM. So hard to believe he was fired because of his potty mouth and not performance related.

ML$E is more worried about appearances than results.

Then for Shanahan to come in and keep those loser blowheads when it was clear to everyone they needed to go. They should have all been traded right after Salutegate. Not tanking for McDavid was Shanahan's first franchise crippling mistake.

His second was signing Tavares.

We all know what happens next. Shanahan and Burke both failed spectacularly in their own separate ways. Polar opposites the only thing they had in common was arrogance in stupidity leading to spectacular failure.

The lowest common denominator mandatory for running this team I guess.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

Off-season arguments between hfboards Leafs posters go hard

 

[Stephen]

Listing team accomplishments under a player's accomplishments is not logical and a very weak argument.

No one asked you to pick who you'd like to take by the way.

You are insanely defensive over me asking you to rank a bunch of players defensively after doing it offensively.

Just FYI, Rantanen's multiple hundred points season (both in the last three years) and Pastrnak's multiple hundred points years (both in the last three years) have placed them tied with Marner over the last three years for P/GP.

What scoring titles (plural) has Pastrnak won? He tied for a Rocket if I am not mistaken.

I'm not even arguing Marner is better than these players, but they are certainly all in the same tier, except for Kucherov.

Distilling all the nonsense down into one point:

If you think Marner is in the same tier as Rantanen, Tkachuk, a tier below Kucherov... and Marner makes a million and a half more than each one of them, that's pretty much checkmate in terms of the overpaid debate isn't it?

We pay more for "the same" and we have to cancel out championships because those stars make their teams better.

 

[notbias]

Distilling all the nonsense down into one point:

If you think Marner is in the same tier as Rantanen, Tkachuk, a tier below Kucherov... and Marner makes a million and a half more than each one of them, that's pretty much checkmate in terms of the overpaid debate isn't it?

We pay more for "the same" and we have to cancel out championships because those stars make their teams better.

I've said he has been overpaid from the start, I just think it is dumb to only discuss points when comparing players.

You're also comparing the players after the contracts are signed which is silly... Marner is still overpaid though, we agree there.

I simply asked to rank them defensively and you gave me every stat related to offense you could find.

I wasn't even trying to justify the contract, it is just weird to put down Marner and claim he is a tier below those players.

Kucherov is by himself from that tier, other than that, I don't see much of a difference.

As far as the championships go... for Florida Tkachuk ranks at most #3 in importance to the cup win, and the same goes for Rantanen. They were potentially lower in importance, but we will say #3 for argument's sake.

They helped for sure but were not the go to guys.

 

[Racer88]

It really infuriated me that we gave away the only power forward in the pipeline for a marginal tiny player....it's like he wanted to prove his point that small is good that he just did stupid things. He kept giving Petan chance after chance to no avail....it was just ridiculous.

Yup, Dubas just had to show he was the smartest guy in the room when in fact he was a dumb ass. The only thing he was really good at was salesmanship to convince Shanny he knew what he was doing

 

[socko]

Distilling all the nonsense down into one point:

If you think Marner is in the same tier as Rantanen, Tkachuk, a tier below Kucherov... and Marner makes a million and a half more than each one of them, that's pretty much checkmate in terms of the overpaid debate isn't it?

We pay more for "the same" and we have to cancel out championships because those stars make their teams better.

I'll take Rantanen. 55 goal season. Playoff production. Not even remotely close.

 

[Buds17]

Trading Wendel!

Rask for Raycroft.

The series loss to either or both of CBJ and MTL.

 

[IPS]

I'll take Rantanen. 55 goal season. Playoff production. Not even remotely close.

Rantanen is firmly ahead of Marner at this point of their careers and it's really not close.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Compared to wingers making over a million less than him in Rantanen, Kucherov, M. Tkachuk, Pastrnak before this season, no, Marner has not outperformed his contract.

Whether a player is overpaid and whether a player has provided as much surplus value as every single player in the league are very different questions.

His PPG average this year is 11th. He’s not even top 10 when talking about bread and butter.

His PPG average through his contract is 8th, which is top-10 before even factoring in his other areas of impact.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Trading Wendel!

Rask for Raycroft.

The series loss to either or both of CBJ and MTL.

I think the cutoff for biggest mistake is whatever moves have been made since the Matthews draft. I do agree though that Fletcher trying to recapture the magic of '93 by bringing back Clark was dumb. Not the worst move of the decade but really unnecessary and desperate.

 

[Racer88]

It takes a special kind of dumb to lose to a team that has your own Zamboni driver in their net.
There are no words to describe this.