Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[notDatsyuk]

Dubas quote wasn’t vague. It refutes your entire view and defense of his contracts in no uncertain terms.

"The biggest mistake I think I’ve made in my whole time here has been not taking care of the three incumbent contracts," Dubas told Custance in the book via Toronto Sun's Lance Hornby. "(William) Nylander was up, (Mitch) Marner and (Auston) Matthews could have been done on July 1 extensions."

You can keep going with your own interpretation of things, buthe dt you are not aligned with Kyle.

The difference is that Dubas is able to admit to having been wrong.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Kyle is also not aligned with his staff... so who is telling the truth?

Not saying Dubas is lying, but 3 things were laid out about why the contracts were not favorable to the Leafs, and a lot of people are focusing on one specific thing because it fits their narrative...

I wouldn't say 'a lot'. There are only a few posters who keep using the 'covid' excuse, but that's just a sign of desperation.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Got it, so avoid what I asked about.

A staff member said Dubas would never say it but the issue was Covid, we are ignoring this quote, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

The one about offer sheets raising salaries is ignored because? 2 of 3 players were offer sheeted by the way, and Matthews was rumoured to have one coming (confirmed by Freidman).

If we are taking the article as gospel, then we are back to arguing what had the biggest affect, Tavares, timing, offer sheets, or Covid?

If he hadn't messed up with Tavares and the signings, the offer sheets and COVID wouldn't have mattered.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Game, Set and Match. !!!!

What I'm most shocked at is that Dubas needed to learn this lesson, without the common sense understanding of what would happen based on setting a new market standard when he signed JT to the highest UFA contract ever in a Salary Cap World, and then when internal self drafted players outplay and outproduce him that Leafs internal salary would drive future contracts. Every team has an internal pay scale and a market pay scale.

The minute Leafs signed the Tavares contract I posted that his contract would act as a "Magnet" and draw Matthews and Marner still unsigned up to his and posted the following prediction where outside comparables no longer would matter and AM and MM only use JT as contract leverage and Leafs Cup Competitive window was screwed, because the best chance happpens when young highend players are on their ELC or 2nd cost controllable contracts which is the first 7 years of NHL service,

Matthews @$12 mil
Tavares @ $11 mil
Marner @ $10 mil

Now hearing Dubas confess he had no clue of the impact of the Tavares timing impact on AM and MM and WN, just emphasis and exposes how inexperienced and unqualified he was for the Leafs GM job.. That is on Shanahan though of deciding to swap out a HHOF GM for this clueless noob.

I think even more of a problem, and a greater indication that he was out of his depth, was that he let the Tavares UFA contract affect the RFA contracts.

 

[notbias]

Keep twisting that dagger Stephen.

I'm glad to see our Leafs board mods taking a solid, intelligent pushback on willful propaganda / disinformation.

What dagger? He ignored (just like anyone else quoting the article) every other piece of information from that article and focused on a single quote that another staffer said was not true.

This thread is literally the defeat of any credibility two posters have.

Watch them wiggle and worm out of confronting reality to hilarious ends.

It's a spectacle.

Reminds me of the psychotic wing of US politics.

I agree with the political analogy, a lot of people are quoting a single person and no one else in the article because it fits their narrative, what they are saying is the truth technically, but they are lying by omission.

I wouldn't say 'a lot'. There are only a few posters who keep using the 'covid' excuse, but that's just a sign of desperation.

A staff member for the Leafs said that Covid was the reason things didn't work out... is the article not to be used as gospel now?

There were multiple points made in the article, everyone is focusing on a single one because it fits their narrative, I am just saying, focus on all three..

If he hadn't messed up with Tavares and the signings, the offer sheets and COVID wouldn't have mattered.

So we are just supposed to ignore reality? The offer sheets happened and so did Covid.

How much of the overpayment of each player is because of Tavares and how much is because of offer sheets?

How much did the cap not rise because of Covid?

Did Marner want more money because Lou wouldn't give him any bonuses?

Does Babcock treating Marner horribly drive up the ask?

I just want to know how much of the overpayment is Tavares.

I still only think Marner was overpaid.

 

[Bomber0104]

I agree with the political analogy, a lot of people are quoting a single person and no one else in the article because it fits their narrative, what they are saying is the truth technically, but they are lying by omission.

Imagine quoting Kyle Dubas on things that Kyle Dubas did and Kyle Dubas now admitted caused problems for past-Kyle Dubas, and denying them and arguing AGAINST THEM.

That "single person" was in fact Kyle Dubas referring to minus-a-few-years-ago version of Kyle Dubas.

You're literally arguing for Kyle Dubas what he is arguing against himself.

It's insanity, stop trying to turn this into the multi-verse.

Kyle just admitted he f***ed up everything with contracts, but you won't even allow him that.

This is beyond weird with you at this point, tantamount to trolling.

 

[notDatsyuk]

What dagger? He ignored (just like anyone else quoting the article) every other piece of information from that article and focused on a single quote that another staffer said was not true.



I agree with the political analogy, a lot of people are quoting a single person and no one else in the article because it fits their narrative, what they are saying is the truth technically, but they are lying by omission.



A staff member for the Leafs said that Covid was the reason things didn't work out... is the article not to be used as gospel now?

There were multiple points made in the article, everyone is focusing on a single one because it fits their narrative, I am just saying, focus on all three..

You and a couple of other posters are focused on the COVID comment by someone not the principal.

Most of us are looking at the bulk of the comments and drawing reasonable conclusions.

Things that happen after a mistake are very rarely the cause of the mistake.

 

[notbias]

Imagine quoting Kyle Dubas on things that Kyle Dubas did and Kyle Dubas now admitted caused problems for Kyle Dubas.

That "single person" was in fact Kyle Dubas referring to minus-a-few-years-ago version of Kyle Dubas.

You're literally arguing for Kyle Dubas what he is arguing against himself.

It's insanity.

https://www.amazon.ca/Improve-Reading-Comprehension-accelerate-comprehension-ebook/dp/B010K4LVTO

For you.

I am not disputing Dubas' quote, but the other staffer also said everything was planned out, and Dubas would never admit to it, but Covid is the reason things didn't work out.

Dubas never even said that his biggest mistake made a huge difference, everyone here is implying that, for all we know, he thinks that he may have overpaid everyone by 500k what he expected to.

 

[notbias]

You and a couple of other posters are focused on the COVID comment by someone not the principal.

Most of us are looking at the bulk of the comments and drawing reasonable conclusions.

Things that happen after a mistake are very rarely the cause of the mistake.

How much did it affect it? 100k per person? 50k per person? 5 million per person? Dubas never said.

You can ignore the other comments in the article, I'm going to take in all the comments and form an opinion.

The most interesting thing I've learned from the article is offer sheets raise the ask of a contract apparently, and it increased Nylander's salary for sure, likely Marner's (he got two), and it probably rushed them to sign Matthews (Freidman confirmed that there were rumours of him being offer sheeted).

We will be back to arguing how much of an increase in salary each player got because of Tavares, but the biggest overpay was the guy with two offer sheets, who disliked the coach, and didn't get the bonuses he thought he deserved, I don't think it is a coincidence.

 

[Bomber0104]

I am not disputing Dubas' quote, but the other staffer also said everything was planned out, and Dubas would never admit to it, but Covid is the reason things didn't work out.

Dubas never even said that his biggest mistake made a huge difference, everyone here is implying that, for all we know, he thinks that he may have overpaid everyone by 500k what he expected to.

So COVID was the reason the Columbus Blue Jackets won?

And the reason the Leafs couldn't close a 3-1 series lead to Montreal?

Or was the real reason that the Dubas Leafs were just pure losers who were put together by a former stick boy with not a single ounce of locker room and hockey experience?

Yeah I'll go with my reasoning, in addition to f***ing up all the contracts, which he just admitted to a reporter and it's going to print...YIKES!

Man it must suck to have to constantly do this every day and get smoked like you do.

You're like the first round Dubas team of posters if we're being honest.

 

[notbias]

So COVID was the reason the Columbus Blue Jackets won?

And the reason the Leafs couldn't close a 3-1 series lead to Montreal?

Or was the real reason that the Dubas Leafs were just pure losers who were put together by a former stick boy with not a single ounce of locker room and hockey experience?

Yeah I'll go with my reasoning, in addition to f***ing up all the contracts, which he just admitted to a reporter and it's going to print...YIKES!

Man it must suck to have to constantly do this every day and get smoked like you do.

You're like the first round Dubas team of posters if we're being honest.

Once again, I highly suggest the following for you:

https://www.amazon.ca/Improve-Reading-Comprehension-accelerate-comprehension-ebook/dp/B010K4LVTO

No one is discussing wins or losses right now, you are arguing with yourself.

Take some time to form coherent thoughts and we can talk.

 

[Bomber0104]

Once again, I highly suggest the following for you:

Amazon.ca

No one is discussing wins or losses right now, you are arguing with yourself.

Take some time to form coherent thoughts and we can talk.

Instead of posting amazon books, you should talk more about how Covid ruined the Leafs chances of winning a first round against Columbus or Montreal.

Or just keep avoiding the fact that Dubas was a total failure and the teams biggest mistake.

This simple proven fact seems to get your knickers all knotted up to the point you are literally arguing against Kyle's own words (where he f***ed up all the major contracts on the team).

And it's hilarious to watch you avoid admitting it.

 

[notbias]

Instead of posting amazon books, you should talk more about how Covid ruined the Leafs chances of winning a first round against Columbus or Montreal.

Every time you post I don't think you know how to read, you never stay on topic and you constantly make up things people have said, that's why I post the book, it'll help you.

Covid being a factor is all I say, it isn't the only factor.

Or just keep avoiding the fact that Dubas was a total failure and the teams biggest mistake.

This simple proven fact seems to get your knickers all knotted up to the point you are literally arguing against Kyle's own words (where he f***ed up all the major contracts on the team).

I am not sure you know what the word fact means... the book will help, seriously.

I am not disputing Dubas' quote by the way, but how much did it affect each salary? That is the discussion, keep up.

And it's hilarious to watch you avoid admitting it.

I am glad I am bringing joy to your life, judging by your posts, you need it.

 

[Bomber0104]

Every time you post I don't think you know how to read, you never stay on topic and you constantly make up things people have said, that's why I post the book, it'll help you.

Covid being a factor is all I say, it isn't the only factor.

You get asked to explain how COVID impacted the Leafs losing to the Columbus Blue Jacket and blowing a 3-1 series lead to Montreal and your answer is...

"Covid being a factor is all I say, it isn't the only factor"

Not only does that not make any grammatical sense (grade 4's can construct proper English sentences I believe) but you also didn't defend any point there.

It's honestly embarrassing dealing with you.

Your English sentence structure is poor, and you also quite simply suck at arguing and sticking to your position.

But in this case, you just pulled the chute on defending anything....kinda like Dubas' Leafs like to do.

I am not sure you know what the word fact means... the book will help, seriously.

I am not disputing Dubas' quote by the way, but how much did it affect each salary? That is the discussion, keep up.
I am glad I am bringing joy to your life, judging by your posts, you need it.

The fact (that Dubas admitted) Dubas f***ed up our salaries is in tangent to him f***ing up basically everything from depth, to coaching, to deadline moves...

It's why he spent four years here and only won a single round while an expansion team won a Cup and countless other teams won more rounds ahead of his disgraceful tenure here.

Such a loser, I see why you like him though.

 

[Gabriel426]

Which one of our Betas signed an offer sheet?
Bc I really don’t recall any one of them did.
Willie sat till last day, MM waited till before training camp and AM was signed mid season.

Last time I checked and pls correct me if I am wrong. Aho signed an offer sheet with the Habs and Canes matched it to avoid Aho going to the Habs. Did Dubas and the Leafs matched a signed Offer sheet?

Stop using COVID as an excuse as COVID been over now and the Cap is going up yet how many players got contract that is higher than JT and MM? Petey, Willie, Pastra, Dahlin and our Rocket winner AM. And Huby is the only other player signed over 10mil.

Two of those guys are Leafs.

Johnny Hockey didn’t even reach 10mil and so was Tkachuk and Point.

No doubt COVID had an impact but to say that if it weren’t for COVID MM and JT salaries would had been a steal or normal is a huge stretch.

Point is it doesn’t matter how much AM, MM, Willie or JT makes if they actually done more than winning ONE round over the past 6 years. If they actually won a Cup the past 6 years, who cares how much they make.

But the fact that not only did they all choke in the playoffs but the same reasons like Coach sucks or supporting cast sucks or defence sucks or goalie sucks or outgoalied…. All these reasons are valid but they are all cause by having Three 10mil plus fowards who just couldn’t score in the playoffs like they do in the regular season.

We can point finger at Lou for not signing Willie a year earlier or Dubas for not signing AM and MM right away on July 1 instead of waiting for them to play the 3rd ELC year. Or getting JT….
Fact is Shanny and Dubas like us-fans all betted on the wrong horses over the past 6 years.

I am not suggesting our core won’t get it or improve but they all had not done it and there is nothing to suggest from their playoffs that they could just start dominating and make a run.

Of all the playoffs games they played the last 8 years, how many games could be say, yeah, he or they were amazing that game? Not a lot and that’s lie the problem.

 

[Racer88]

Interesting stuff on these pages. While Covid did actually happen and yes it flattened the cap, however Dubas was one of the only GM’s so badly affected by it.
The reason being is he signed Tavares to the huge contract knowing that he had some stars coming that would demand big increases. I could understand if those stars were spread out on forward, defense and net but they were not.
Secondly when it became apparent that these 4 could not get the job done and he was unable to built a good enough supporting team around them he failed to change up the core 4.
This mess we are in is all on Dubas and Shanny

Which one of our Betas signed an offer sheet?
Bc I really don’t recall any one of them did.
Willie sat till last day, MM waited till before training camp and AM was signed mid season.

Last time I checked and pls correct me if I am wrong. Aho signed an offer sheet with the Habs and Canes matched it to avoid Aho going to the Habs. Did Dubas and the Leafs matched a signed Offer sheet?

Stop using COVID as an excuse as COVID been over now and the Cap is going up yet how many players got contract that is higher than JT and MM? Petey, Willie, Pastra, Dahlin and our Rocket winner AM. And Huby is the only other player signed over 10mil.

Two of those guys are Leafs.

Johnny Hockey didn’t even reach 10mil and so was Tkachuk and Point.

No doubt COVID had an impact but to say that if it weren’t for COVID MM and JT salaries would had been a steal or normal is a huge stretch.

Point is it doesn’t matter how much AM, MM, Willie or JT makes if they actually done more than winning ONE round over the past 6 years. If they actually won a Cup the past 6 years, who cares how much they make.

But the fact that not only did they all choke in the playoffs but the same reasons like Coach sucks or supporting cast sucks or defence sucks or goalie sucks or outgoalied…. All these reasons are valid but they are all cause by having Three 10mil plus fowards who just couldn’t score in the playoffs like they do in the regular season.

We can point finger at Lou for not signing Willie a year earlier or Dubas for not signing AM and MM right away on July 1 instead of waiting for them to play the 3rd ELC year. Or getting JT….
Fact is Shanny and Dubas like us-fans all betted on the wrong horses over the past 6 years.

I am not suggesting our core won’t get it or improve but they all had not done it and there is nothing to suggest from their playoffs that they could just start dominating and make a run.

Of all the playoffs games they played the last 8 years, how many games could be say, yeah, he or they were amazing that game? Not a lot and that’s lie the problem.

You nailed it and it’s blows my mind how some can’t see this.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Imagine quoting Kyle Dubas on things that Kyle Dubas did and Kyle Dubas now admitted caused problems for past-Kyle Dubas, and denying them and arguing AGAINST THEM.

That "single person" was in fact Kyle Dubas referring to minus-a-few-years-ago version of Kyle Dubas.

You're literally arguing for Kyle Dubas what he is arguing against himself.

It's insanity, stop trying to turn this into the multi-verse.

Kyle just admitted he f***ed up everything with contracts, but you won't even allow him that.

This is beyond weird with you at this point, tantamount to trolling.

It is really f***ing creepy and cringe reading the lengths Dekes and Zekes (not bias) go to defend Kyle. They won't even allow him to reflect on what he himself believes his mistakes have been.

It makes for really weird and uncomfortable reading.

 

[IPS]

This is legitimately one of the most entertaining threads in years.

 

[hotpaws]

No idea how Dubies buddy thinks covid excuses Dumbass from giving out bar raising contracts , there was no covid when Dubass made Tavares the highest paid player in the game at the time he signed and there was no covid when he signed our core 3 . If he wants to argue covid created a flat cap that's fine but a flat cap effected everyone and also suppressed salaries .

this is how bad Dumbass f***ed up

-instead of negotiating with Marner who was rumored to be asking 8.5m x 8yrs he slow played him thinking he could force Willie to take a discount and other two would fall in line , so basically Dumbass could have had both Mitch and Willie signed for around 16m or slightly less combined for 8yrs

- Rantanen was also up and was waiting for Mitch as his comparable to reset the bar higher because his agent knew Dumbass is a weak bitch but even when Mitch did drive the bar much higher Sakic just told Ranta to go f*** himself and he wasn't getting that and after a coupe weeks he signed for 1.6m less

- we didn't need or could afford JT , what we needed was D and quality depth but Dubass had to make a splash just like he did in Pitt by trading for EK who was also a non need

Dumbass problem wasn't simply that he was inexperienced but was and still is incompetent , He does one thing well and that's self promotion , other than that he's a backstabbing gutless weasel .

It is really f***ing creepy and cringe reading the lengths Dekes and Zekes (not bias) go to defend Kyle. They won't even allow him to reflect on what he himself believes his mistakes have been.

It makes for really weird and uncomfortable reading.

they're not worth having a discussion with , just put them on ignore and save yourself the aggravation

 

[hamzarocks]

What % was Dubas messing up the contracts vs offer sheets vs Covid vs Lou not giving out bonuses vs hating Babcock vs other factors?

There are tons of factors that go into contracts, would love to hear an expert like yourself break it down.

Dubas sucks, hes a proven failure at the NHL level for 6 years now

He screwed the Pens up so bad with 3 albatross contracts his first summer in Graved (tanev might be comparable so dont think Im hyping up Treliving either), Jarry, and Erik Karlsson

While leafs nation continues to dickride between a former incompetent GM and a current incompotent GM, the other contending teams will make smart and sound decisions and continue to improve

in 2019 we were far ahead of Dallas, Carolina, NYR, FLA, EDM and now each of those teams is a lot ahead of the leafs

Dubas + Shanny messed everything up with overpayments to the core, bad roster trades (kadri, marchment etc) bad decisions to not sell UFAs (andersen, gardiner, hyman) bad deadline moves eith so many picks bled (Foligno, RoR, Gio, etc) and mostly poor drafting

Treliving has continued piss poor management expect he basically doesnt make any move via trades.

He overpaid Nylander by 2M and gave matthews an insane deal for 4Y term.

His deadline moves for lub and edmunson were fine if we kept one of them but both walked and the D we brought in, I see declining super hard and super quick over next 2 years.

His draft picks might look nice but still a ways to go. Niemela and Hirvonen also looked very promising at one pt and are now second tier guys.

Leafs have beem mismanged for better part of 60 years unfortunately.

The only good periods have been random spots in thr 70s, early to mid 90s, and late 90s to early 00s.

This current run with Shanahan and keeping this unwinnable core is insansity driven by MLSE greed and management failures.

Leafs will continue to fail as long as the big 5 + shanahan are here.

In 4 years time we will be looking at a massive rebuild and be recognized as.the biggest choking core in NHL history

 

[Mess]

Stop using COVID as an excuse as COVID been over now and the Cap is going up yet how many players got contract that is higher than JT and MM? Petey, Willie, Pastra, Dahlin and our Rocket winner AM. And Huby is the only other player signed over 10mil.

No doubt COVID had an impact but to say that if it weren’t for COVID MM and JT salaries would had been a steal or normal is a huge stretch.

Remember also when Covid hit, eventually games were played in a Bubble and that Bubble was in Toronto at the ACC. Toronto was the host and so Leafs got to play ALL games on home ice and still LOST.

In 2019-20 - The NHL expanded to 24 teams in a play-in best of 5 round #1 .. Leafs opponent CBJ wouldn't have qualified for the normal top 16 qualifying teams {8 each from East and West].

In 2020-21 - The NHL even changed the Divisions so Leafs wouldn't need to play against contenders like Tampa, Florida and Boston, but an all CDN Div where Leafs needed to beat Montreal, Edmonton/Winnipeg to guarantee final 4 with all games played at the ACC on home ice and where a Canadian team hadn't won the Cup since 1996 to amplify strength of schedule ease to the Cup, Montreal only made the playoffs because they ended up 4th in the CDN Div, but did not qualify on wins nor points only the new format of 1st X 2 rounds were in each new Div, Leafs never even faced an Ameriacan based team all year. They couldn't even finish in the TOP 2 Canada only teams run to the Cup.

Dubas & Keefe couldn't beat Columbus (in 5 games) nor Montreal in 7 (while up 3-1 in the series) both opponents who are such strong powerhouse teams to this very day still ,and as mentioned didn't even qualify to make the playoffs without Covid rules allowing them in. Leafs couldn't have had easier 1st round opponents if you hand picked them.

Like you whenever I hear the Leafs using COVID as the reason for their failure, because Leafs GM didn't understand the difference between an RFA contract and UFA contract prices when signing Leaf players coming out of their ELCs, expecting the Cap to rise to offset bad contracts. That is as foolish as someone expecting a big raise or promotion at work and they going on a pre-spending spree only to find out that raise/promotion didn't happen and blaming your boss for your own overspending habits that put you now in a bad position. That doesn't even include the fact of dealing away 1st round draft pick to dump contract to create cap to allow for overspending to occur, by morgaging the future of the entry draft,

The salary cap is the same for all regardless of the ceiling max, so teams that foolishly didn't sign their stars to bloated overpaid double digit salaries, would have even more additional cap space remaining to build even stronger Cup competitve teams, even if the cap had risen. Higher cap ceiling = more depth for anyone not named Toronto thinking 1/2 your cap on 4 forwards was a good idea believing the Cap would go up.

 

[socko]

The offer sheet excuse is only valid for Matthews. Want to give me 4 first round picks and $11 cap space for Marner? Sold any day at any time.

And one of the bigger mistakes that I don't see mentioned enough, is playing Matthews with Marner. It so obviously doesn't work and they revert to their worst tendencies. I don't know that it matters for Marner but it seems to matter for Matthews quite a bit.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Remember also when Covid hit, eventually games were played in a Bubble and that Bubble was in Toronto at the ACC. Toronto was the host and so Leafs got to play ALL games on home ice with the benefits of home cooking and sleeping in their own beds

...Do you not realize what living in a bubble means?

 

[Mess]

The offer sheet excuse is only valid for Matthews. Want to give me 4 first round picks and $11 cap space for Marner? Sold any day at any time.

And one of the bigger mistakes that I don't see mentioned enough, is playing Matthews with Marner. It so obviously doesn't work and they revert to their worst tendencies. I don't know that it matters for Marner but it seems to matter for Matthews quite a bit.

Marner claims he loves being a Leaf so much that he won't waive his NMC forcing him to stay unwanted, but had no problem threatening a Clueless Dubas with an offer sheet to go elsewhere to exploit his ridiculous current salary.

If you have NO intention of leaving then the threat of an offer sheet should fall on deaf ears. Besides as far as making GOOD GM decisions goes than instead of overpaying because you're being blackmailed you take the 4 X 1st round picks compensation everyday of the week and use that $11 mil cap space to build a real hockey team.

If Marner would have received that so called actual OS and signed it, then not taking the compensation picks would be on the list now as BIGGEST mistakes, near the very top of the list.

Besides does anyone believe any current GM would offer 4 X 1st round picks for Marner today in trade, even with the benefit of knowing the player and point producer he currently is? .. (Other than the current one in Pittsburgh notwithstanding).

 

[ToneDog]

Knies Matthews Jarnkrok
McMann Tavares Nylander
Robbie Domi Marner
Cowan/Holmberg Kampf Reaves

Marner can show us how much he deserves $12.5m by playing without a unicorn at C.