Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[hotpaws]

biggest mistake ?

basically the vast majority of mistakes big and small were from hiring Dubas

- grossly overpaying a non need ufa C in Tavares which also inflated M and M deals
- trading Kadri who had years left on a very team friendly deal for 2 mediocre to bad pending ufa's
- trading a 1st plus for a washed up and injured Foligno
- trading two 2nds and a 3rd for an ancient bottom pairing D in Gio

the list of Dumbass blunders are endless , thank god they kicked him to the curb like the filth he is

 

[Menzinger]

Didn't they find some ... and then move them for other players?
Maybe one homerun here.

Lamoriello's Grabner deal has to be up there with some of their historically bad deals.

Dakota Joshua

Carter Verhaeghe
Carl Grundstrom
Sean Durzi

That's fair, though I wouldn't really mourn the loss of Grundstrom.

Vergaghe in particular probably hurts the most, tho good for him getting a cup.

Still, would have also been nice to have more 'hits' in the first three rounds of the draft during that time period

 

[hurdemz]

your right, a 30 goal second line Center on a good contract doesn’t hold much value. Barrie and Kerfoot were the only options for the Kadri return.


No he didn’t, read the full interview

Youre looking at barrie and kerfoot's (keefeet?) Value now. At the time barrie was an established offensive dman and kerfoot was a young promising center. Neither had turned out as expected.

In the meantime kadri had TWICE took bad playoff penalties, and almost singlehandedly caused TWO first round exits for the leafs. If it were 300 years earlier, his head would of been on a stake

 

[Byron Bitz]

Youre looking at barrie and kerfoot's (keefeet?) Value now. At the time barrie was an established offensive dman and kerfoot was a young promising center. Neither had turned out as expected.

In the meantime kadri had TWICE took bad playoff penalties, and almost singlehandedly caused TWO first round exits for the leafs. If it were 300 years earlier, his head would of been on a stake

I dont disagree that Barrie and Kerfoot had high trade value at the time. That reinforces my point that Kadri was a high value asset that could have got us good assets in return. It’s the GM’s job to find not just value but the right return for US and Barrie was not a good fit for us. He was a smaller and slower version of Rielly.

 

[hurdemz]

I dont disagree that Barrie and Kerfoot had high trade value at the time. That reinforces my point that Kadri was a high value asset that could have got us good assets in return. It’s the GM’s job to find not just value but the right return for US and Barrie was not a good fit for us. He was a smaller and slower version of Rielly.

You still dont know if there was anything better on the table

 

[NMacrules]

Dumbass.

drops mic

 

[MK78]

I think the Tavares signing will be near the top of many lists.

It wouldn't have been a big deal had the cap not stayed flat for 4 years.

 

[Sypher04]

It wouldn't have been a big deal had the cap not stayed flat for 4 years.

I think the mistake probably was Dubas not realizing at the time he was projecting the cap forward how expensive 34, 88 and 16 would be. If he’d realized then what those contracts were going to look like he probably re-thinks signing Tavares.

Tavares is in no way the reason those contacts were what they were but his deal on top of them was going to be difficult. The flat cap then exacerbated the issue.

 

[keonsbitterness]

My thoughts are that Mess probably shouldn't be altering quotes, and others probably shouldn't be extrapolating conclusions from a partial quote in a Toronto Sun report about an unreleased book. Doesn't change any of the facts about the contracts regardless.

Mess being Mess aside, it's pretty clear what Dubas said. Why should you be believed over him?

 

[MK78]

I think the mistake probably was Dubas not realizing at the time he was projecting the cap forward how expensive 34, 88 and 16 would be. If he’d realized then what those contracts were going to look like he probably re-thinks signing Tavares.

Tavares is in no way the reason those contacts were what they were but his deal on top of them was going to be difficult. The flat cap then exacerbated the issue.

I think Tavares signing was a way to bring in a solid veteran to be the captain of a young team, not to mention a local player.

The screwup was definitely caving into Marner & Matthews for huge contracts coming out of ELC. Nylander was actually a great value.

They also failed to secure a goalie that could be good or stay healthy for more than half a season at a time. A problem we are still having to this day, post Freddie.

 

[LeafEgo]

I think the mistake probably was Dubas not realizing at the time he was projecting the cap forward how expensive 34, 88 and 16 would be. If he’d realized then what those contracts were going to look like he probably re-thinks signing Tavares.

Tavares is in no way the reason those contacts were what they were but his deal on top of them was going to be difficult. The flat cap then exacerbated the issue.

Tavares in no way 'should' have been the reason those contracts were ludicrous, but the long running suspicion that he was, seems to have been corroborated first hand - though the source is shaky...

So embarrassing.

 

[QJo]

I think Tavares signing was a way to bring in a solid veteran to be the captain of a young team, not to mention a local player.

The screwup was definitely caving into Marner & Matthews for huge contracts coming out of ELC. Nylander was actually a great value.

They also failed to secure a goalie that could be good or stay healthy for more than half a season at a time. A problem we are still having to this day, post Freddie.

People blame the Tavares signing as if the following contracts were inevitable. It was Dubas' job to not let them be tied to it. Tavares contract didn't put us in cap trouble. Matthews and Marners did. Dubas made those mistakes and those were the mistakes. Mid term, max dollar, NMC. An agents dream, an ascending team's anchor.

 

[cannucky]

Hiring Shanny

 

[hotpaws]

The Tavares contract destroyed this current window

- he was never good enough to earn anywhere near that deal
- it ruined our internal cap by parachuting a ufa in for 11m per and then not understanding Marner and Mathews who are both much better players would use that cap hit as the floor
- a 11m dollar second line C was the last thing this team needed since we already had Kadri on a great deal and needed to spend that cap elsewhere
- you should also never sign a career loser who has the personality and mental capacity of a turnip to that cap hit and then also slap the C on him

i can't believe i waited decades for the Leafs to have drafted an elite group of kids only to have ruined by one ufa signing

 

[cannucky]

People blame the Tavares signing as if the following contracts were inevitable. It was Dubas' job to not let them be tied to it. Tavares contract didn't put us in cap trouble. Matthews and Marners did. Dubas made those mistakes and those were the mistakes. Mid term, max dollar, NMC. An agents dream, an ascending team's anchor.

If anything caving to Nylander was the domino that sent the contracts spiraling , sending him home to play in Sweden , cancel his team paid insurance and letting his agent and the world know that we own him for three more years and the penalty for holding out will be a 1 million dollar reduction in the amount we are willing to pay every year he holds out . So the 5.5 he was offered becomes 4.5 next year to come back then 3.5 etc .This would have changed the whole dynamic in the teams salary structure .

 

[cannucky]

Don't get me wrong JT was a stupid unnecessary move and I said so here before and after it was done . We were told day one of Shananigan's tenure this team would be built from within for the long haul with no short cuts , then they get into the playoffs for the first time in years and suddenly think they are one piece away from being the best team in the league .

I think Tavares signing was a way to bring in a solid veteran to be the captain of a young team, not to mention a local player.

The screwup was definitely caving into Marner & Matthews for huge contracts coming out of ELC. Nylander was actually a great value.

They also failed to secure a goalie that could be good or stay healthy for more than half a season at a time. A problem we are still having to this day, post Freddie.

Please explain how they get Marner and Mathews to sign cheap when they just paid Nylander 9 freaking million for less than half the on ice production the other two had generated at the time .......

 

[socko]

Shanahan is the answer for me. Dubas did most of the damage but only because Shanahan enabled him to do it. And I still think Shanahan's stink is all over the team even without Dubas.

As for Tavares, I never got why he's so overrated. Don't see him as ever being worth his contract on his best days.

 

[Racer88]

From a player perspective Tavares hands down.
From an overall, hiring Shanny.
From an operational stand point not changing up the core dynamic a few years ago when it became painfully obvious they can’t get it done

 

[BrannigansLaw]

No point thinking about the past. Just blow it up now and stop wasting all our time.

 

[QJo]

If anything caving to Nylander was the domino that sent the contracts spiraling , sending him home to play in Sweden , cancel his team paid insurance and letting his agent and the world know that we own him for three more years and the penalty for holding out will be a 1 million dollar reduction in the amount we are willing to pay every year he holds out . So the 5.5 he was offered becomes 4.5 next year to come back then 3.5 etc .This would have changed the whole dynamic in the teams salary structure .

I can see the logic there, though I don't agree with the draconian hardball strategy but I would never accept it as explanation for what went wrong in Dubas' tenure with the Leafs if I was interviewing him.
It is his job to build a winning roster first and foremost. Not to maximize asset retention, acquisition or value via trade. Those are all secondary consoderations.
If, given the contracts already tied to the roster, a winning roster is not likely to be built with Marner at almost 11 and matthews at almost 11.75 then you cannot sign those contracts no matter what has happened in the past. Even if they are worth that money. This is a hard salary cap league and you have to allocate those dollars at least as well as the top few teams to expect to win it all.

 

[Team First]

Biggest mistake? 30 years of Ballard /Stavros cheapness.
Oh, salary cap era on....
JFJ starting the salary cap era as GM.

 

[IPS]

My thoughts are that Mess probably shouldn't be altering quotes, and others probably shouldn't be extrapolating conclusions from a partial quote in a Toronto Sun report about an unreleased book. Doesn't change any of the facts about the contracts regardless.

I wasn't quoting Mess, I was quoting egd27 who specifically referenced you (very accurately at that) saying that Tavares' signing didn't influence the RFA signings. It's literally straight from the horse's mouth now, so you can't weasel your way out of this one.

 

[Racer88]

They are all time greats in many ways. Matthews best regular season scorer we will have ever had. Marner is an elite winger, on a level like few we've had. We are witnessing a collection of talent, that has lead to some of the best regular seasons in Leafs history.

ALSO

They are complete failures in the playoffs... when it counts.

----------

To some degree, patience is needed... you need to allow guys to mature, and grow into winners. We've seen that many times with other organizations.

I wonder if Dubas even had the autonomy to make the changes that you suggest, and I've suggested.... to me it appeared as though he wanted to make changes and Shanahan wouldn't let him... and then he walked.

Then Shanahan says this...

“There is a time for preaching patience, and there is a time when you have to examine the patterns that persist… Everything will be on the table”​

... and then, nothing happened. I'd love to see another interview, asking him... you said the time for patience was over, everything was on the table and then.... nothing...

People are mad about Dubas... but it appears as though Shanahan is equally at blame here too.....

But mostly, we drafted elite talents, who don't know how to win.

Ya what a crock of Sh*t that presser was. Going to be the same old loser core forget another year …….or 6

 

[Folignos Helmet]

Trading Rask and signing JT are neck and neck.

Rask staying would have given goalies stability for years, but they still could have easily screwed the rest of the roster. It was however just a bet on the other goalie and goalies are voodoo, so it is not as easy to lay direct blame, even though Rask had the much better pedigree.

JT was blatant mismanagement. It was shiny toy syndrome, ignoring what you actually had and needed as a team, it lead the the inflated contracts of the other top end players, and led to multiple players being squeezed out for salary cap reasons. Continued a long trend of ignoring the defence. It also enabled the culture of the team we have had for the past 6 years of quiet indifference. JT's personalty drives the culture of the team like a wet blanket.

 

[Lightsol]

Hiring Shanny

Wouldn't we be so much better off in that alternate universe where we continue missing the playoffs because the board brings in another Brian Burke to not rebuild?