Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[notDatsyuk]

Because they signed all their big contracts right before covid lol

Other teams suffered too, but some suffered worse than others, not sure a team got it worse than the Leafs.

The timing of Covid was certainly bad luck, but those were horrible contracts anyway.

 

[Torontonian]

Probably signing John Tavares. I know a lot of us had always wanted the hometown star to come home and sign with us in FA, but the trickle down effect it caused really hurt the team from being able to achieve winning a Stanley Cup so far.

It stopped us from building a quality d-core and stopped us from filling out the proper depth the past 6 years. It also gave the 3 big boys reign to demand whatever they wanted.

 

[Shooter14]

The teams biggest mistake was hiring Tim Leiweke CEO of MLSE, who hired Brendan Frederick Shannahan. Enough said.

 

[HolyCrap]

@Dekes For Days thoughts?

Dude. That poster needs to stay under his bridge. lol.

 

[Craig Button]

Kyle Dubas

 

[QJo]

Dude. That poster needs to stay under his bridge. lol.

This board with a lot less of this.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I guess it's matter of where you want to start.

Signing a rookie GM led to signing Tavares led to overpaying Matthews and Marner (and to a lesser extent Nylander) led to trading Kadri and a lot of other assets in futile attempts to make the earlier mistakes 'work out'.

I agree that the Tavares signing "lifted the lid on the entire internal Leafs salary ceiling." But it shouldn't have! There was no reason to give RFAs those numbers and terms! An experienced GM should have been able to sign them for the same contracts after JT as before.

As far as bad trades go (although in my opinion nothing matches the Russ Courtnall for John Kordic fiasco), the Rask, Kessel, and (incoming) Phaneuf trades should all be included in the pre-Shanahan list.

Not keeping Lou (and Leo) was likely a mistake, but not as big as many others.

 

[Bust]

What has Lou shown since leaving that you think this was a good idea?

Lou over dubas?

Easy - while maybe some things have passed Lou with his age and ideas on team building, he’s shown that he has an actual plan and will stick to it.

Build from the net out. He’s done it everywhere. And has been successful everywhere he’s been.

Our only plan was seemingly at the draft table: BPA, trading down, recouping assets/burning assets to pivot off of mistakes, ext; Outside of the draft (and a bit of FOMO at the TDL) we did nothing to build our group.

Just draft, retain at any cost, and hang on. That is not Lou’s M.O. and I respect him for it. He’s had much more success with a poor roster than our group has ever had, never mind what he accomplished in NJ.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The team that tanked the hardest (Buffalo didn’t even get McDavid). At the end of the lottery, we were one ball from getting McDavid. And we ended up with the second best or third best player in the 2015 draft. It’s all luck. If that ball drops our way we end up with Mcdavid. Literally came down to the last ball in the lottery between us and Edmonton.

So the biggest mistake the team has made in 20 years was not fixing the lottery? Otherwise I'm not sure how you consider not winning a game of chance a mistake.

 

[francis246]

So the biggest mistake the team has made in 20 years was not fixing the lottery? Otherwise I'm not sure how you consider not winning a game of chance a mistake.

I never said it was their biggest mistake. I was replying to someone who was saying that was our biggest mistake. We are on the same side of the argument. It comes down to luck to win the lottery. I was painting the picture of just how close we actually came to winning the McDavid sweepstakes even though we didn’t fully tank that year.

 

[Dekes For Days]

@Dekes For Days thoughts?

My thoughts are that Mess probably shouldn't be altering quotes, and others probably shouldn't be extrapolating conclusions from a partial quote in a Toronto Sun report about an unreleased book. Doesn't change any of the facts about the contracts regardless.

 

[Canadian Finn]

gimme a D, Deeeeee
gimme a U, uuuuwwwweeeee
gimme a B, Beeeeee

 

[notDatsyuk]

Almost like it’s the elephant in the room!

Actually, there has been virtually no 'Marner contract' discussion, other than tied in with the Matthews and Nylander contracts way back when.

26 of the last 31 cups have been won by GMs in their first NHL GM role.

How many weren't NHL AGMs first?

 

[Antropovsky]

Shanahan watching Moneyball.

Jokes aside.

Shanahan hiring Dubas.

In just 7 years, Dubas went from never been a gm in his life to the 32 year old gm of the Maple Leafs.

Similarily, in just 7 years Keefe went from never been a coach in his life, to being the 37 year old coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Most talented roster Toronto has maybe ever seen and Shanahan decides to become the smartest person in the room. Lol

 

[Dreakmur]

My thoughts are that Mess probably shouldn't be altering quotes, and others probably shouldn't be extrapolating conclusions from a partial quote in a Toronto Sun report about an unreleased book. Doesn't change any of the facts about the contracts regardless.

You can only dodge this for so long....

 

[Sypher04]

JTs at 11M may not have been the best use of cap but he had nothing whatsoever to do with what our young core got paid.

If JT never signs Matthews still asks for an AAV between McDavid & Eichel, Marner still compares himself to Matthews and Nylander still holds out for a deal between Ehlers and Pastrnak. Nothing at all changes.

Not changing the course of our build when the Covid flat cap changed our salary cap outlook was the biggest mistake imo.

 

[Bust]

Actually, there has been virtually no 'Marner contract' discussion, other than tied in with the Matthews and Nylander contracts way back when.

Like as in a dedicated thread on this board?

Let me assure you that theres a ton of Marner related talk stemming from his inflated contract, on these boards, online, podcasts, ext.

Marners current contract and (guaranteed) raise demands are a couple of reasons as to why he’s currently in the dog-house to a large portion of leaf fans.

 

[notbias]

Lou over dubas?

Easy - while maybe some things have passed Lou with his age and ideas on team building, he’s shown that he has an actual plan and will stick to it.

Build from the net out. He’s done it everywhere. And has been successful everywhere he’s been.

Except Toronto.

Our only plan was seemingly at the draft table: BPA, trading down, recouping assets/burning assets to pivot off of mistakes, ext; Outside of the draft (and a bit of FOMO at the TDL) we did nothing to build our group.

Just draft, retain at any cost, and hang on. That is not Lou’s M.O. and I respect him for it. He’s had much more success with a poor roster than our group has ever had, never mind what he accomplished in NJ.

His team has progressively gotten worse since he took over.

His one good move was hiring Trotz, and then it all fell apart.

 

[notDatsyuk]

varied... Point being.. "rookie" GM isn't a qualifier to hate Dubas... y'all have plenty of other reasons.

Ok - rephrase it as "signing a GM with no NHL experience".

Does that make you feel better?

And it's got nothing to do with 'hating' Dubas. It's a valid criticism of Shanahan.

 

[notbias]

The timing of Covid was certainly bad luck, but those were horrible contracts anyway.

Marner was the only overpayment, Nylander and Matthews got market value.

Tavares you can argue about it being an overpayment or not, but we can call it one if you want.

I think Covid is a far bigger issue than a few million in overpayments.

Ok - rephrase it as "signing a GM with no NHL experience".

Does that make you feel better?

And it's got nothing to do with 'hating' Dubas. It's a valid criticism of Shanahan.

He had NHL experience though, the same as many GMs, assistant GM to GM.

 

[Bust]

Except Toronto.



His team has progressively gotten worse since he took over.

His one good move was hiring Trotz, and then it all fell apart.

Pretty lazy responses by you here.

He absolutely was building from the net out here. He traded for Freddy and drafted AM at the draft. Freddy (while not my favourite) was the best goalie we’ve had since cujo/eddy and is leaps ahead of what we’ve had since his departure. Freddy was an animal for us at first.

The leafs had missed the playoffs for 10 straight when Lou was hired, we made the playoffs the following 2 years while he was GM.

The isles were much better than we were when Lou arrived. They were a bad team who just lost their captain, Lou turned that thing around and made them respectable. The (current) isles would demolish any recent iteration of the leafs in the playoffs, without question.

Lou is miles ahead of dubas as a GM/POHO and we would be in a much better position team wise, cap wise and success wise if he had stayed.

 

[notDatsyuk]

They are all time greats in many ways. Matthews best regular season scorer we will have ever had. Marner is an elite winger, on a level like few we've had. We are witnessing a collection of talent, that has lead to some of the best regular seasons in Leafs history.

ALSO

They are complete failures in the playoffs... when it counts.

----------

To some degree, patience is needed... you need to allow guys to mature, and grow into winners. We've seen that many times with other organizations.

I wonder if Dubas even had the autonomy to make the changes that you suggest, and I've suggested.... to me it appeared as though he wanted to make changes and Shanahan wouldn't let him... and then he walked.

Then Shanahan says this...

“There is a time for preaching patience, and there is a time when you have to examine the patterns that persist… Everything will be on the table”​

... and then, nothing happened. I'd love to see another interview, asking him... you said the time for patience was over, everything was on the table and then.... nothing...

People are mad about Dubas... but it appears as though Shanahan is equally at blame here too.....

But mostly, we drafted elite talents, who don't know how to win.

There are five players with full NMCs. From a 20 man roster that leaves 15. He has signed five new bodies (and re-signed a couple more).

Not counting non roster players like Cowan and Minten, he has potentially turned over 1/3 of the eligible players.

Yes, he has not yet traded a played he can't trade, but "nothing happened" is just incorrect.

Marner was the only overpayment, Nylander and Matthews got market value.

Tavares you can argue about it being an overpayment or not, but we can call it one if you want.

I think Covid is a far bigger issue than a few million in overpayments.



He had NHL experience though, the same as many GMs, assistant GM to GM.

Which NHL GM was he an assistant to before the Leafs signed him?

 

[notbias]

Pretty lazy responses by you here.

He absolutely was building from the net out here. He traded for Freddy and drafted AM at the draft. Freddy (while not my favourite) was the best goalie we’ve had since cujo/eddy and is leaps ahead of what we’ve had since his departure. Freddy was an animal for us at first.

The leafs had missed the playoffs for 10 straight when Lou was hired, we made the playoffs the following 2 years while he was GM.

The isles were much better than we were when Lou arrived. They were a bad team who just lost their captain, Lou turned that thing around and made them respectable. The (current) isles would demolish any recent iteration of the leafs in the playoffs, without question.

Lou is miles ahead of dubas as a GM/POHO and we would be in a much better position team wise, cap wise and success wise if he had stayed.

Lazy response because I was responding to a post of opinion without much fact.

Freddy can't handle pressure and he quit on the team.

I think you're delusional based on how you view the Islanders and Lou's ability, but once again, this is all your opinion, I just don't think there is any form of logic in it.

 

[Sypher04]

The (current) isles would demolish any recent iteration of the leafs in the playoffs, without question.

Well that’s a garbage take if I’ve ever seen one.

 

[notbias]

Which NHL GM was he an assistant to before the Leafs signed him?

What are you arguing?

He took a valid path to his first GM role.

Maybe I am just not understanding what your point was...