What The Hell Has Happened To The Florida Panthers?

[IceManCat]

I've said it before and I will say it again, I think the Panthers are f***ed.

I think they probably miss the playoffs this year but will make it once or twice in the next 4 years and do little.

You're paying your backup goalie 10 million dollars, have no 1st round picks until 2026, have a poor defense, and a one dimensional offence.

Everyone was on Florida's dick when they did the low rent tryout thing with a whole bunch of offensively skilled players who had stumbled and it was a clever way to do a quick reboot. But they also ended up with the Anthony Duclairs of the world who need to be insulated by a grinding, puck retrieval team, not thrown into a pile with a bunch of clones. Their game not thriving in the playoffs should have been predictable in retrospect (though I admit I thought they were 50/50 to beat Tampa going into that series, I felt like Carolina would smash them).

I respect Zito making the move to get Tkachuk and get away from two upcoming contracts he didn't like in Huberdeau (whom I have always liked) and Weegar, but to have no plan to replace Weegar when you've given up all of your future first round picks? What was he hoping for?

Barkov is an absolute stud superstar and he carries this team to being a lot better than they have any right to be.
If they can add another two top 4 D then they will be dangerous again, but I'm not sure how they can. Canucks are in a similar predicament (though we're obviously worse) and it's proven incredibly difficult to address.

A lot better than they have any right to be? We have Verhaghe, Duclair, Barkov, Thachuk, Bennett and Reinhart. That's six players in your top six that are capable of scoring 30 goals plus per year. Remind me again how many teams have that capability ??? lmao. The Panthers are loaded with talent. Lundell is looking to be the second line center in the near future with an excellent two way game. We also have Samoskevich recent first round pick tearing up Michigan he'll be here next year.

The defense is only weak on the middle pairing. Ekblad and Forsling are fantastic (when healthy). Montour has been an absolute beast this year and Gudas was the NHL hits leader last year... The only weak spot is on the middle pairing. The idea that the Panthers have no defense is pretty odd?

Goaltending hasn't really been the issue this year although both have had their fair share of ups and downs.

Also Duclair having to be insulated by a grinding team is hilarious. He would never survive on a grinding team the dude only like to skate and score. You put him on a grinding team and hell have 0 goals as evidenced by his past performance on grinding teams ....

This is about the biggest "hot take" I've seen in a while. The Panthers suck because Paul Maurice sucks not the players. Also, we have been hit pretty hard by the injury bug and baby mama drama.

 

[Colezuki]

A lot better than they have any right to be? We have Verhaghe, Duclair, Barkov, Thachuk, Bennett and Reinhart. That's six players in your top six that are capable of scoring 30 goals plus per year. Remind me again how many teams have that capability ??? lmao. The Panthers are loaded with talent. Lundell is looking to be the second line center in the near future with an excellent two way game. We also have Samoskevich recent first round pick tearing up Michigan he'll be here next year.

The defense is only weak on the middle pairing. Ekblad and Forsling are fantastic (when healthy). Montour has been an absolute beast this year and Gudas was the NHL hits leader last year... The only weak spot is on the middle pairing. The idea that the Panthers have no defense is pretty odd?

Goaltending hasn't really been the issue this year although both have had their fair share of ups and downs.

Also Duclair having to be insulated by a grinding team is hilarious. He would never survive on a grinding team the dude only like to skate and score. You put him on a grinding team and hell have 0 goals as evidenced by his past performance on grinding teams ....

This is about the biggest "hot take" I've seen in a while. The Panthers suck because Paul Maurice sucks not the players. Also, we have been hit pretty hard by the injury bug and baby mama drama.

This is the epitome of a homer take, if you we're as good as you describe above then how come no one has stepped up and scored all those goals. Reality is that last year the panthers depth allowed them too run three lines that could score, creating matchup nightmares for other teams. This meant guys who could score thirty if everything went right did but that shouldn't be the expectation. Edit: Verhaghe, Duclair, bennett and Reinhart all hit career highs in goals last year and only Reinhart is pacing close to hitting that pace this year. IF you subtract 40 goals from 4 players on any team by going from 30->20 goals see what happens to there record as it reduces average goals by 0.5

If your D is injured it isn't only weak in the middle pairing that means your missing two top 4 D and the team needs to account for Ekblad's health, which basically makes him a 2 in reliability.

I support the idea that panthers will be back next year but the D needs two top 4D before we can consider there defense better then bottom 10 in the league.

 

[Negan4Coach]

Wow you guys are going to be big mad when Maurice gets fired and then they don't all of a sudden start winning.

 

[Tarmore]

Wow you guys are going to be big mad when Maurice gets fired and then they don't all of a sudden start winning.

There would likely be the new coach 'bump', but it takes time to change systems. Small tweaks to the system is likely all that would happen.

 

[IceManCat]

This is the epitome of a homer take, if you we're as good as you describe above then how come no one has stepped up and scored all those goals. Reality is that last year the panthers depth allowed them too run three lines that could score, creating matchup nightmares for other teams. This meant guys who could score thirty if everything went right did but that shouldn't be the expectation. Edit: Verhaghe, Duclair, bennett and Reinhart all hit career highs in goals last year and only Reinhart is pacing close to hitting that pace this year. IF you subtract 40 goals from 4 players on any team by going from 30->20 goals see what happens to there record as it reduces average goals by 0.5

If your D is injured it isn't only weak in the middle pairing that means your missing two top 4 D and the team needs to account for Ekblad's health, which basically makes him a 2 in reliability.

I support the idea that panthers will be back next year but the D needs two top 4D before we can consider there defense better then bottom 10 in the league.

Your argument of why aren't repeating the same numbers is flawed in about 15 different ways. It's a bad argument as in very bad. I'll start with some of the major points.

First, they are playing a dump and chase system that stifles all offensive creativity .... Can you explain to me how playing in a dump and chase system creates a higher offensive output? This is one of the major reasons we see less goals during playoff hockey. Its just the nature of the system, clearly... I didnt think it needed to be said but alas.

Everything I mentioned in that post was within their average... Therefore again my point stands. The only player who performed far above their standards was Duclair but even he can easily repeat a 30 goal performance.

By mentioning the matchups you acknowledge that the ice time was evenly split. If that's the case then what do you think they can do if they were given even more ice time? Logic dictates that certain players would score more, others less. Thereby indicating that it is in many respects an average...

You failed to account for line juggling. Huberdeau and Barkov played apart from each other. If they had played together both of their stats would be even higher. You can make an argument that Verhaghe, Duclair, Reinhart etc etc would have had an even higher numbers had they played with Barkov and or Huberdeau for extended periods of time. Yet they didnt... The lines were juggled quite often. So in theory this obviously points to the ideas that they could have had even higher point totals. Thanks for making that one easy on me!

Also, did you see our power play last year? It was terrible, abysmal, God-awful. If the Panthers had a power play worth a lick they would have scored a ton more points. Causing these numbers to be even higher. Again, leaving the potential for more point production than what was already had.

Finally, I'm guessing you're trying to say to there at the end that if you subtract players you subtract points? Yeah well that's pretty obvious isnt it? If McDavid gets hurt the Oilers lose that production. If Kucherov gets hurt the Lightning lose that production. I mean is this really an argument?

So again my point stands these players on the team (when healthy) are top tier performers. It is a combination of a stifling system, injuries and personal setbacks causing the Panthers to tumble in the standings. Not some convoluted idea of "over-performing" or "good-luck". The Panthers may have scored more than their average last year but nontheless they are well within their capability of scoring at that pace again (given the conditions), which is the entire crux of the argument laid out against the person before you. One last point, giving you the facts isn't homerism...

 

[Midnight Judges]

It turns out xGoals aren't goals.

 

[Colezuki]

Your argument of why aren't repeating the same numbers is flawed in about 15 different ways. It's a bad argument as in very bad. I'll start with some of the major points.

First, they are playing a dump and chase system that stifles all offensive creativity .... Can you explain to me how playing in a dump and chase system creates a higher offensive output? This is one of the major reasons we see less goals during playoff hockey. Its just the nature of the system, clearly... I didnt think it needed to be said but alas.

Everything I mentioned in that post was within their average... Therefore again my point stands. The only player who performed far above their standards was Duclair but even he can easily repeat a 30 goal performance.

By mentioning the matchups you acknowledge that the ice time was evenly split. If that's the case then what do you think they can do if they were given even more ice time? Logic dictates that certain players would score more, others less. Thereby indicating that it is in many respects an average...

You failed to account for line juggling. Huberdeau and Barkov played apart from each other. If they had played together both of their stats would be even higher. You can make an argument that Verhaghe, Duclair, Reinhart etc etc would have had an even higher numbers had they played with Barkov and or Huberdeau for extended periods of time. Yet they didnt... The lines were juggled quite often. So in theory this obviously points to the ideas that they could have had even higher point totals. Thanks for making that one easy on me!

Also, did you see our power play last year? It was terrible, abysmal, God-awful. If the Panthers had a power play worth a lick they would have scored a ton more points. Causing these numbers to be even higher. Again, leaving the potential for more point production than what was already had.

Finally, I'm guessing you're trying to say to there at the end that if you subtract players you subtract points? Yeah well that's pretty obvious isnt it? If McDavid gets hurt the Oilers lose that production. If Kucherov gets hurt the Lightning lose that production. I mean is this really an argument?

So again my point stands these players on the team (when healthy) are top tier performers. It is a combination of a stifling system, injuries and personal setbacks causing the Panthers to tumble in the standings. Not some convoluted idea of "over-performing" or "good-luck". The Panthers may have scored more than their average last year but nontheless they are well within their capability of scoring at that pace again (given the conditions), which is the entire crux of the argument laid out against the person before you. One last point, giving you the facts isn't homerism...

Argues I'm arguing in bad faith but yet neglects all data that disproves my point

1. All within their averages, see below, all four of these players are well above there averages. So no your point doesn't stand

Goals per year by player, bolded is last season.
Verhaghe, 9, 18, 24,
Duclair, 11,8, 23, 10, 31
Reinhart, 23, 17, 25, 22, 22, 25, 33,
Bennett, 18, 13, 11, 13, 8, 4, 6, 28

I misspoke earlier but verhaghe and reinhart are pacing positively towards last years numbers, however that still means that your missing key contributions from players like Hornqvist and Giroux.

2. Increase in Ice-Time = Increase in Points
With an increase in ice-time it doesn't correlate directly to increase in points for two reasons.
1. Quality of Competition rises
2. Energy per game goes up as well.

Given the panthers are scoring 22% less GF/gm then YA (0.8Goals per game). Which suggests that there missing goal scoring depth from YA.

3. If I Slap my two best players together it works and theyre performance grows. Chemistry isn't linear and the point of seperating them was to improve the performance across multiple lines.

4. IF the PP was so atrocious last year then that should help this year, but it isn't is it?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Everything I mentioned in that post was within their average... Therefore again my point stands. The only player who performed far above their standards was Duclair but even he can easily repeat a 30 goal performance.

Bennett was also way above his standard last year. He never even hit 20G in a season before last and his pace this year is more inline with his career average than with last season.

 

[Canadienna]

A lot better than they have any right to be? We have Verhaghe, Duclair, Barkov, Thachuk, Bennett and Reinhart. That's six players in your top six that are capable of scoring 30 goals plus per year. Remind me again how many teams have that capability ??? lmao. The Panthers are loaded with talent. Lundell is looking to be the second line center in the near future with an excellent two way game. We also have Samoskevich recent first round pick tearing up Michigan he'll be here next year.

The defense is only weak on the middle pairing. Ekblad and Forsling are fantastic (when healthy). Montour has been an absolute beast this year and Gudas was the NHL hits leader last year... The only weak spot is on the middle pairing. The idea that the Panthers have no defense is pretty odd?

Goaltending hasn't really been the issue this year although both have had their fair share of ups and downs.

Also Duclair having to be insulated by a grinding team is hilarious. He would never survive on a grinding team the dude only like to skate and score. You put him on a grinding team and hell have 0 goals as evidenced by his past performance on grinding teams ....

This is about the biggest "hot take" I've seen in a while. The Panthers suck because Paul Maurice sucks not the players. Also, we have been hit pretty hard by the injury bug and baby mama drama.

Seems crazy to me that you're willing to portion blame to everything including the "baby mama drama" but don't think it's the players on the ice.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Argues I'm arguing in bad faith but yet neglects all data that disproves my point

1. All within their averages, see below, all four of these players are well above there averages. So no your point doesn't stand

Goals per year by player, bolded is last season.
Verhaghe, 9, 18, 24,
Duclair, 11,8, 23, 10, 31
Reinhart, 23, 17, 25, 22, 22, 25, 33,
Bennett, 18, 13, 11, 13, 8, 4, 6, 28

It's misleading because of Covid shortened seasons. Verhaghe (counting this season) averages 27G / 82G so it's close. without this season it's 24, but a bit misleading because of small sample sizes.

Reinharts last 5 seasons are 29G / 82 Games so that's close enough.

I'd say Barkov, Tkachuk, Reinhard and Verhaghe scoring 30 wouldn't be an aberration from their averages.

30G seasons Duclair and Bennett are an aberration though.

 

[IceManCat]

Argues I'm arguing in bad faith but yet neglects all data that disproves my point

1. All within their averages, see below, all four of these players are well above there averages. So no your point doesn't stand

Goals per year by player, bolded is last season.
Verhaghe, 9, 18, 24,
Duclair, 11,8, 23, 10, 31
Reinhart, 23, 17, 25, 22, 22, 25, 33,
Bennett, 18, 13, 11, 13, 8, 4, 6, 28

I misspoke earlier but verhaghe and reinhart are pacing positively towards last years numbers, however that still means that your missing key contributions from players like Hornqvist and Giroux.

2. Increase in Ice-Time = Increase in Points
With an increase in ice-time it doesn't correlate directly to increase in points for two reasons.
1. Quality of Competition rises
2. Energy per game goes up as well.

Given the panthers are scoring 22% less GF/gm then YA. Which suggests that there missing goal scoring depth from YA.

3. If I Slap my two best players together it works and theyre performance grow.

Once again they are NOT "well above their own averages" -

In the case of Sam Bennett its a small sample size. But the year before in 15 games after the trade he had 20 points. Quite a high production. Also this year he is trending towards a higher point total than last year. Currently sitting at 23 points in 35 games, very respectable and a slightly higher clip than last year.

Giroux had a minimal role on the Panthers he was mostly tasked with taking key face-offs. Also the Panthers were trending at a high pace far before he got there. Other than face-offs which he was amazing at, he contributed little to the team. Reinhart was actually pacing towards a higher goal total before he got to the Panthers, and also who was he playing with in Buffalo? That was a terrible team to play on. Tough to judge his potential which is what this argument is about.. its about the potential, skill and ability of the players. It seems like we are stuck on statistics here and missing the original point. Again the idea that the Panthers "massively over performed" is a flawed idea. Some slightly over performed. And even if they did they "overperform" it was well within their capabilities as players. Which is the whole point of this argument.

To your second point about ice time: it doesn't necessarily increase the production nor does it necessarily decrease it either. The point is that it stands as an average potentially causing either of the two outcomes.

 

[Colezuki]

It's misleading because of Covid shortened seasons. Verhaghe (counting this season) averages 27G / 82G so it's close. without this season it's 24, but a bit misleading because of small sample sizes.

Reinharts last 5 seasons are 29G / 82 Games so that's close enough.

I'd say Barkov, Tkachuk, Reinhard and Verhaghe scoring 30 wouldn't be an aberration from their averages.

30G seasons Duclair and Bennett are an aberration though.

For sure, but then don't say all are 30 goal guys and that the entire top 6 are guarantees all the time. Even losing 20 goals from just the other two and potentially 30 if you say Bennett is 10-20 your still looking at seeing a drop of 0.25 goals per game over a season minimum

 

[IceManCat]

Seems crazy to me that you're willing to portion blame to everything including the "baby mama drama" but don't think it's the players on the ice.

It seems odd that you aren't willing to consider variables other than the players themselves. Its actually mind blowing to think hockey is a game of only one variable (players alone).

 

[Canadienna]

It seems odd that you aren't willing to consider variables other than the players themselves. Its actually mind blowing to think hockey is a game of only one variable (players alone).

I never claimed it was. I'm not gonna argue with you. I think the coach, the injuries, all play a role, but unlike what you posted earlier, I think the biggest problem is with the roster itself.

 

[IceManCat]

Bennett was also way above his standard last year. He never even hit 20G in a season before last and his pace this year is more inline with his career average than with last season.

Hes trending at a higher pace this year actually. And the sample size the year before he was trending even higher. So yeah pretty safe bet to say he's going to perform at that pace again.

I never claimed it was. I'm not gonna argue with you. I think the coach, the injuries, all play a role, but unlike what you posted earlier, I think the biggest problem is with the roster itself.

The same roster than won the presidents trophy? I mean if we are thinking in logical terms this makes no sense at all. But sure have at it I guess?

 

[The Management]

There's still a lot of hockey left to play and they could comfortably be in a playoff spot by season's end, but if that's not where they find themselves, then I see no other way to describe their season other than as a colossal stinker. From President's Trophy to toiling at the bottom of the division.

I've never understood the resignation I've detected from some (not all) Panthers fans that this was part of the long-term plan and that they'd simply repair the blueline next offseason in free agency. This team is trying to compete right now - that's why they sacked futures for Giroux and Chiarot. Yet they've lost both of those guys, and had no one to replace Weegar in the Huberdeau trade. They lost a solid citizen in Marchment, and have a mess of a contract situation in net. And the cherry on top is that they hired Paul Maurice.

All it takes is a heater and they can turn their fortunes around, but to be one point ahead of the rebuilding Canadiens, while they have a game in hand and hold your first round pick... woof.

We could be having a very different discussion this Spring. As I said, a lot of hockey left to play, but with teams like Buffalo and Ottawa finding their footing, it's going to be tough.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

Montreal with Florida's unprotected pick

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Hes trending at a higher pace this year actually. And the sample size the year before he was trending even higher. So yeah pretty safe bet to say he's going to perform at that pace again.

Huh? Bennett has 7 goals in 35 games which is a "pace" of 16Goals / 82 games.

His best year prior to last was 18G in 77 Games. Saying "the year before he was trending higher" is silly as it was a 10 game sample size which is way too small of a sample size to make an assessment. If you look at that full season (Calgary and Florida), he was on pace for 17 goals / 82games Fact: He's had 1 season out 9 (including this) where he was close to 30G. Saying it's his "norm" or "average" is false.

Because of that, it makes no sense to say "he's a safe bet" to perform at that level. I'm not saying there's no chance, I'm saying his history doesn't support a "safe bet".

 

[Accelleratii]

With a thin blueline, below average goaltending and no coach to make up for it, they'll lose more than they win.

 

[IceManCat]

Huh? Bennett has 7 goals in 35 games which is a "pace" of 16Goals / 82 games.

His best year prior to last was 18G in 77 Games. Saying "the year before he was trending higher" is silly as it was a 10 game sample size which is way too small of a sample size to make an assessment. If you look at that full season (Calgary and Florida), he was on pace for 17 goals / 82games Fact: He's had 1 season out 9 (including this) where he was close to 30G. Saying it's his "norm" or "average" is false.

Because of that, it makes no sense to say "he's a safe bet" to perform at that level. I'm not saying there's no chance, I'm saying his history doesn't support a "safe bet".

What are you talking about ?

He has 23 points in 35 games. He's scoring at a higher pace than last year. So yeah like I said it's pretty safe bet he's going to eclipse his totals from last year ....

 

[Kimota]

That Maurice hire was beyond mind-boggling. It's such an uninspired decision. I always thought he was lifeless and made the Jets worse. When they faced the Habs, that squad had no fire. You mean to tell me that wasn't better choices available? Hell I don't remember if the Flyers hired him before the Panthers made their decision but Torto would have been much better for them. A skilled team made of vets, close to the top spots(at the time) with the know-how and motivation skills to take them further

Panthers were better off when Talon was there. He is the one that built a top team and every moments he has not been there they made stupid moves making the team worse.

 

[Ratsreign]

Panthers were better off when Talon was there. He is the one that built a top team and every moments he has not been there they made stupid moves making the team worse.

“Panthers were better off when Talon was there. He is the one that built a top team and every moments he has not been there they made stupid moves making the team worse.”
I would say the same if I was a Nordiques fan, hoping for their relocation.

all kidding aside, Tallon did a lot of good building up the Panthers, but he certainly had His share of bad moves during his “second” stint as GM.

 

[Dread Clawz]

There's still a lot of hockey left to play and they could comfortably be in a playoff spot by season's end, but if that's not where they find themselves, then I see no other way to describe their season other than as a colossal stinker. From President's Trophy to toiling at the bottom of the division.

I've never understood the resignation I've detected from some (not all) Panthers fans that this was part of the long-term plan and that they'd simply repair the blueline next offseason in free agency. This team is trying to compete right now - that's why they sacked futures for Giroux and Chiarot. Yet they've lost both of those guys, and had no one to replace Weegar in the Huberdeau trade. They lost a solid citizen in Marchment, and have a mess of a contract situation in net. And the cherry on top is that they hired Paul Maurice.

All it takes is a heater and they can turn their fortunes around, but to be one point ahead of the rebuilding Canadiens, while they have a game in hand and hold your first round pick... woof.

We could be having a very different discussion this Spring. As I said, a lot of hockey left to play, but with teams like Buffalo and Ottawa finding their footing, it's going to be tough.

They sacked futures for 21-22, not 22-23. Zito knew he wasn't gonna be able to re-sign G and Chiarot. He took a shot, he lost. When he swapped Huby and Weegar for Tkachuk, it was somewhat of a move for now, but it was more about making his core younger and extending the window. Tkachuk is 5 years younger than Huby. He felt that based upon what they were asking for, Huby and Weegs were not worth close to what they were demanding, and would be very overpaid. He's decided that he'll strengthen the blueline next summer with the 7-9M he'll have opened up. Possibly even more if he doesn't want to qualify White.

As for Bob, he's only here until 2024. After that he'll be bought out and the cap hit won't be that much.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

A lot better than they have any right to be? We have Verhaghe, Duclair, Barkov, Thachuk, Bennett and Reinhart. That's six players in your top six that are capable of scoring 30 goals plus per year. Remind me again how many teams have that capability ??? lmao. The Panthers are loaded with talent. Lundell is looking to be the second line center in the near future with an excellent two way game. We also have Samoskevich recent first round pick tearing up Michigan he'll be here next year.

The defense is only weak on the middle pairing. Ekblad and Forsling are fantastic (when healthy). Montour has been an absolute beast this year and Gudas was the NHL hits leader last year... The only weak spot is on the middle pairing. The idea that the Panthers have no defense is pretty odd?

Goaltending hasn't really been the issue this year although both have had their fair share of ups and downs.

Also Duclair having to be insulated by a grinding team is hilarious. He would never survive on a grinding team the dude only like to skate and score. You put him on a grinding team and hell have 0 goals as evidenced by his past performance on grinding teams ....

This is about the biggest "hot take" I've seen in a while. The Panthers suck because Paul Maurice sucks not the players. Also, we have been hit pretty hard by the injury bug and baby mama drama.

Verhaeghe is found money, a good player. Duclair to me is sort of a bad team scorer, or a guy who is a nice advantage to have on your 3rd line beating up on 3rd d pairings. I like him, but he's like a rich man's Athanasiou. Barkov is an absolute superstar. Tkachuk might be the best in the league at what he does (anything to do with the puck below the hashmarks), has hockey sense off the charts, and is a really underrated passer, but his legs are in cement so he needs to play with certain types. Bennett and Reinhart are both good players too.

I like Lundell a lot, but he's only one player. Forsling is a legit top 4 D man, Ekblad is a top pairing guy who is superlative in some areas, but slow and incredibly injury prone.

And my point about Duclair is that he is redundant on Florida. A few years ago the BlueJackets were a team that won just about every puck battle but had very few guys who could actually put it in the net. That's the sort of team where Duclair could really thrive and be a bit more essential. On Florida I see him as a bit more of a passenger who scores the 6th goal in an 8-3 win.

The balance between a good team and a bad team is razor thin these days, the Canucks lost Tanev and have looked absolutely lost in many ways ever since. I think Weegar tipped a dangerous balance for you guys, and you have no assets to improve, very little cheap talent on the pipeline. You're in danger of becoming San Jose.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

Maurice’s systems have always seemed out of date and not up to snuff. Rumblings from Jet players are that there was very little coaching going on from PoMo.

Florida’s management and owners won’t have the same kind of patience/loyalty he was afforded in Winnipeg.