What Roster changes do you make if Marner doesn't waive?

[mydnyte]

Fair comments on Lilly.. but it still doesn't change the dollars much... give him $2 mil, and we only have $10.8, and I've probably underpaid Domi by a similar mil... so, back at square one... but even for arguments sake, you move Kampf and Jarnkrok,

You've got $14-15 mil to sign a 2C, 1/2 RD, 3/4RD, 1a/b Goalie... that's incredibly difficult.

Let's say you bargain bin this.... Get Boosh back.. he played decent with Rielly. $3 mil.
Roy at $5-6 You've got $6-8 mil left. Lindholm would take pretty much all of that... so no money left for a goalie... Stephenson would be cheaper... $5.6....

So... $1.7 left for a goalie.... Still pretty tough to get all of this done, without moving a core piece... and moving Rielly doesn't help much, as whomever we'd get to replace him, would cost the same.

I hold on on the 2C Tavares can manage for one more season, and I'm hoping Minten/Holmberg can take the 3/4C spots and the 25/26 UFA C class is better and deeper.

I wouldnt be adverse to trying Marner at C, he's more than able to handle the defensive side, and would only need to improve on faceoffs, and that could move JT to 3rd line C, or LW

If we do resign Domi, I'd love to try a line of JT - Matthews - Domi

I just think the top priority this off season needs to be 100% dedicated to the RHD spot, OR D upgrade in general and upgrade this one time and properly.

that means no Love for Lub, as he doesnt have good enough mobility.
I'd consider tossing that 6-8 mil at Skjei (and move Rielly down to pair 2) Or Mountour and the rest on Walker/Roy/Carrier/Chatfiled and fit as many of them as we can afford or take the best 2 we can afford.

usually, i'd prefer Pesce/Tanev to have the 'shutdown' D, but, getting the puck out is more important that x-checking someone in front of the net a little harder

In Dubas' defense I think with the benefit of hindsight he would have done things differently.

But actions have consequences. Not for him, apparently, because he failed upwards, but for the fans.

his biggest mistake was not spending the $$ on Pietrangelo

 

[Fogelhund]

Maybe Berube can gift Marner a 100 pound cell phone and a 50 pound BBQ spatula for the off-season to improve his strength. Alternative is for Mitch to follow the "Ben and Jose Get Big Quick" instruction manual over the summer.

Funny enough, he's a pretty strong kid... especially for his size. He was squatting 375lbs.... not sure what he does now... It's using it for anything physical that's the issue.

 

[rumman]

Maybe Berube can gift Marner a 100 pound cell phone and a 50 pound BBQ spatula for the off-season to improve his strength. Alternative is for Mitch to follow the "Ben and Jose Get Big Quick" instruction manual over the summer.

Guys a shrimp, Gilmore was the same stature but played like a man possessed, Marner is a fringe player who looks good in the regular season, but can’t elevate his game because he’s a boy playing a man’s game……..

 

[rumman]

Funny enough, he's a pretty strong kid... especially for his size. He was squatting 375lbs.... not sure what he does now... It's using it for anything physical that's the issue.

He avoids contact like it’s the plague, who cares what he squats, in the end it doesn’t translate into playoff success, I hate belittling him but he’s the elephant in the room……..

 

[Fogelhund]

He avoids contact like it’s the plague, who cares what he squats, in the end it doesn’t translate into playoff success, I hate belittling him but he’s the elephant in the room……..

The point is... he isn't weak... it's not the lack of strength that's this issue... just clarifying for discussion... yes, he avoids contact like it's the plague... but that's a mental thing... not a physical thing. I agree with your viewpoint though.

 

[The Management]

Can a guy like him learn how to play a different way, or is it like trying to get a leopard to change its spots? Sort of wish we had a coaching change last off-season, as opposed to these issues boiling over at essentially the same time. Going from Mike Babcock to Sheldon Keefe must have been like whiplash for this particular player.

 

[Fogelhund]

Can a guy like him learn how to play a different way, or is it like trying to get a leopard to change its spots? Sort of wish we had a coaching change last off-season, as opposed to these issues boiling over at essentially the same time. Going from Mike Babcock to Sheldon Keefe must have been like whiplash for this particular player.

In some ways he can learn to play different, but I don't think a passive person, can learn to become aggressive. Your instincts are still your instincts. Any real change would take massive personal commitment, and I doubt he thinks he really needs to change that drastically.

I agree on the coaching. I think we should have made the change in December maybe even early January. That would have given management adequate time under a new coach, to properly evaluate what changes in players were needed, if any. Could these guys adapt and improve with a new coach, and new message... if not, well... you can't keep doing the same thing, and expecting different results...

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Maybe Berube can gift Marner a 100 pound cell phone and a 50 pound BBQ spatula for the off-season to improve his strength. Alternative is for Mitch to follow the "Ben and Jose Get Big Quick" instruction manual over the summer.

Marner needs to hire these guys...

 

[mydnyte]

Guys a shrimp, Gilmore was the same stature but played like a man possessed, Marner is a fringe player who looks good in the regular season, but can’t elevate his game because he’s a boy playing a man’s game……..

You cannot compare similar sized players from previous generations ...Gilmour played in the clutch and grab era, where you could count on one hand the 'elite' skating d-men, and maybe even the above average skaters.
Now, you cannot play defense unless you are an above average skater, unless you are a monster on the ice.

Its much easier to evade d-men who cant skate 1/2 as good as you. i.e. watch McDavid or McKinnon since there is perhaps 1-2 d-men in the league that can come close to their skating ability; they are very hard to defend because they skate better than all the defenders they are up against.

Marner is an above average skater with great edge-work, but, he doesnt have high end burst speed to get away from defenders, so he is easier to contain and this is why he's always cutting back and curling, to give him separation, and thats the only way he can get it.
Gilmour's edgework was as good as Marners, and he was also 'feisty' (which Marner is not) so, in addition to being faster than the average d-man, he could out edge them, and then hacked at them them too when they got close (and he didnt have the puck) but what he did not do was engage contact, though he did fight through it.

that infamous video where its claimed Nylander said "stop crying bro, this isnt junior hockey" (I cut the profanity) likely came from Marner being x-checked viciously to the ice right in front of the ref's with no call, and he was pissed (the gloves slam)

when Marner realizes he's not going to get 99% of the calls because its the playoffs (or a Leafs player) he may start to understand how to play in the playoffs, and I'm expecting a tough coach like Berube will get that message across to every player.

 

[rumman]

You cannot compare similar sized players from previous generations ...Gilmour played in the clutch and grab era, where you could count on one hand the 'elite' skating d-men, and maybe even the above average skaters.
Now, you cannot play defense unless you are an above average skater, unless you are a monster on the ice.

Its much easier to evade d-men who cant skate 1/2 as good as you. i.e. watch McDavid or McKinnon since there is perhaps 1-2 d-men in the league that can come close to their skating ability; they are very hard to defend because they skate better than all the defenders they are up against.

Marner is an above average skater with great edge-work, but, he doesnt have high end burst speed to get away from defenders, so he is easier to contain and this is why he's always cutting back and curling, to give him separation, and thats the only way he can get it.
Gilmour's edgework was as good as Marners, and he was also 'feisty' (which Marner is not) so, in addition to being faster than the average d-man, he could out edge them, and then hacked at them them too when they got close (and he didnt have the puck) but what he did not do was engage contact, though he did fight through it.

that infamous video where its claimed Nylander said "stop crying bro, this isnt junior hockey" (I cut the profanity) likely came from Marner being x-checked viciously to the ice right in front of the ref's with no call, and he was pissed (the gloves slam)

when Marner realizes he's not going to get 99% of the calls because its the playoffs (or a Leafs player) he may start to understand how to play in the playoffs, and I'm expecting a tough coach like Berube will get that message across to every player.

“Cutting back and curling” doesn’t sound like north south hockey, he’s going to struggle when he can’t evade the inevitable and gets throughly pasted on a regular basis, he won’t adapt to the Chief’s system and will have a tough year imo……..

 

[mydnyte]

“Cutting back and curling” doesn’t sound like north south hockey, he’s going to struggle when he can’t evade the inevitable and gets throughly pasted on a regular basis, he won’t adapt to the Chief’s system and will have a tough year imo……..

once you are in the o-zone, there is no north-south ...north-south is how you get into the o-zone.

mind you, Marner isnt a dump and chase winger, and the leafs dont really have many that are.

their best 1-on-1 board player(s) is actually JT and Matthews, they usually win their board battles and can control the puck in tight, but, they arent the guys you send in to fetch the puck, that would need to fall to a McMann, or a Knies etc.
You will need a big bodied/physical digger on every line (or someone that plays big, like Domi), with the Marner's being the 3rd guy, ready to strip and control the puck away, and at that Marner would excel.
in the o-zone, its basically, dig-strip/control-shoot

 

[Tak7]

Can a guy like him learn how to play a different way, or is it like trying to get a leopard to change its spots? Sort of wish we had a coaching change last off-season, as opposed to these issues boiling over at essentially the same time. Going from Mike Babcock to Sheldon Keefe must have been like whiplash for this particular player.

They'll justify keeping him with the justification that a new voice in the room can lead to a new and improved Marner.

Something they could have avoided had they made the coaching change last summer, potentially removing any of that doubt and answering that question already in their minds.

 

[Dreakmur]

If Marner isn't willing to waive, I would view next year as a write-off, and use it as a development year. Bring in Cowan, Minten, and Grebyonkin. Find out what holes you need to fill once Tavares and Marner are off the books.

Domi-Matthews-Nylander
Cowan-Tavares-Jarnkrok
Knies-Minten-Marner
McMann-Kampf-Grebyonkin

Be patient. Live with the struggles.

 

[notbias]

If Marner isn't willing to waive, I would view next year as a write-off, and use it as a development year. Bring in Cowan, Minten, and Grebyonkin. Find out what holes you need to fill once Tavares and Marner are off the books.

Domi-Matthews-Nylander
Cowan-Tavares-Jarnkrok
Knies-Minten-Marner
McMann-Kampf-Grebyonkin

Be patient. Live with the struggles.

I do not understand this at all...

You just listed some players who can come in on ELCs, great, more cap for other players.

They have some cheap RFAs to help too.

Brodie was a #7 by the end of the year and was $5 million, they can allocate that better this year.

Samsanov ended up being a $3.5 million backup.

Bertuzzi was $5.5 million and played like he was $2.5 million.

They have room to make improvements.

Go after Montour and Demelo, then sign a 1B, this will be most of the cap.

See if Domi will take a decent deal, and if he does, call it a day.

If they can do all that, they might be able to make it work cap-wise by getting rid of Jarnkrok or Kampf (would prefer Jarnkrok going).

Putting Reaves in the minors is also a good option since we should be looking to upgrade, he likely also doesn't get claimed (maybe he does), and it is not a good contract.

McMann - Matthews - ELC
Knies - Tavares - Nylander
Robertson - Domi - Marner
Holmberg - Kampf - Dewar

Rielly - Demelo
McCabe - Montour
Benoit - Liljegren

Woll
1B

This roster is cap compliant, not sure how off these salaries are though, but I tried to make them somewhat realistic (feel free to critique).

Montour - $8 million
Demelo - $4 million
Domi - $4 million
1B - $3 million
Liljegren - $1.8 million
Robertson - $1.1 million
Dewar - $900k
ELC - ~$900k

Replacing Liljegren with Timmins or moving Kampf and having Holmberg play C will likely solve any underpayments I made.

This team would finally solve the backend not being able to play in the offensive end and they are still good two-way players.

Being grittier than the other team is not our issue.

 

[hullsy47]

“Cutting back and curling” doesn’t sound like north south hockey, he’s going to struggle when he can’t evade the inevitable and gets throughly pasted on a regular basis, he won’t adapt to the Chief’s system and will have a tough year imo……..

Cowan got abused in the memorial cup way more than marner did all year

 

[Dreakmur]

I do not understand this at all...

You just listed some players who can come in on ELCs, great, more cap for other players.

They have some cheap RFAs to help too.

Brodie was a #7 by the end of the year and was $5 million, they can allocate that better this year.

Samsanov ended up being a $3.5 million backup.

Bertuzzi was $5.5 million and played like he was $2.5 million.

They have room to make improvements.

Go after Montour and Demelo, then sign a 1B, this will be most of the cap.

See if Domi will take a decent deal, and if he does, call it a day.

If they can do all that, they might be able to make it work cap-wise by getting rid of Jarnkrok or Kampf (would prefer Jarnkrok going).

Putting Reaves in the minors is also a good option since we should be looking to upgrade, he likely also doesn't get claimed (maybe he does), and it is not a good contract.

McMann - Matthews - ELC
Knies - Tavares - Nylander
Robertson - Domi - Marner
Holmberg - Kampf - Dewar

Rielly - Demelo
McCabe - Montour
Benoit - Liljegren

Woll
1B

This roster is cap compliant, not sure how off these salaries are though, but I tried to make them somewhat realistic (feel free to critique).

Montour - $8 million
Demelo - $4 million
Domi - $4 million
1B - $3 million
Liljegren - $1.8 million
Robertson - $1.1 million
Dewar - $900k
ELC - ~$900k

Replacing Liljegren with Timmins or moving Kampf and having Holmberg play C will likely solve any underpayments I made.

This team would finally solve the backend not being able to play in the offensive end and they are still good two-way players.

Being grittier than the other team is not our issue.

Another wasted year with the core failing in the playoffs…. And we didn’t develop any of the prospects!

Montour? Adding him means out two top defenders will be poor defensively and not able to Pk.

 

[ToneDog]

Cowan got abused in the memorial cup way more than marner did all year

Didn't he score a goal and two assists. I believe that is more points than Marner has had in game 7s in his career. Trade him and bring in Cowan.

 

[Blanka]

The Marlies get a great boost of regular season skill with the addition of Mitch Marner.

 

[notbias]

Another wasted year with the core failing in the playoffs…. And we didn’t develop any of the prospects!

Montour? Adding him means out two top defenders will be poor defensively and not able to Pk.

Re-sign Edmundson and Lub then instead... they played PK and we got scored on a lot.

In the scenario above, we have D that can PK over Rielly/Montour.

Montour plays 23+ minutes a night on a team in the SCF and has good numbers doing it.

Defensively our team has been fine in the playoffs, we can't score and last year we had a bunch of low IQ and no skill D, it'd be nice to get some puck movement on the backend.

I don't know what the obsession is with getting better defensively when we don't have that issue, it is insane.

 

[ACC1224]

Cowan got abused in the memorial cup way more than marner did all year

I thought Cowan played pretty well but people are just showing their ignorance thinking he's a Marner replacement.

Marner 2016 Memorial Cup - 2g 12a 14pts
Cowan 2024 Memorial Cup - 3g 5a 8pts

 

[Dreakmur]

Re-sign Edmundson and Lub then instead... they played PK and we got scored on a lot.

In the scenario above, we have D that can PK over Rielly/Montour.

Montour plays 23+ minutes a night on a team in the SCF and has good numbers doing it.

Montour 23 minutes plays in a sheltered role. Rielly needs to do that too. Who’s taking the tough match-ups, the 3rd pair?

Defensively our team has been fine in the playoffs, we can't score and last year we had a bunch of low IQ and no skill D, it'd be nice to get some puck movement on the backend.

I don't know what the obsession is with getting better defensively when we don't have that issue, it is insane.

The defence core has been mediocre to bad. We have been decent defensively because of our centres.

We definitely do need to improve the offence from our blueline, but not at the expense of defence… because both aspects need to improve.

 

[notbias]

Montour 23 minutes plays in a sheltered role. Rielly needs to do that too. Who’s taking the tough match-ups, the 3rd pair?

Montour is not sheltered, OEL and Kulikov are.

Not sure about QoC, but I would assume he is playing against tough opponents.

There is a difference between being sheltered and being deployed offensively because you are better there.

Rielly was sheltered, sure.

As for who can take the tough matchups, I'd be confident in McCabe/Montour or Rielly/Demelo.

Pure shutdown pairs aren't put together much anymore.

We used McCabe/Benoit for tough matchups, and both those pairings are an improvement.

The defence core has been mediocre to bad. We have been decent defensively because of our centres.

We definitely do need to improve the offence from our blueline, but not at the expense of defence… because both aspects need to improve.

Adding Demelo improves the defensive side of the puck.

Adding Montour improves both.

 

[Dreakmur]

Re-sign Edmundson and Lub then instead... they played PK and we got scored on a lot.

In the scenario above, we have D that can PK over Rielly/Montour.

Montour plays 23+ minutes a night on a team in the SCF and has good numbers doing it.

Montour 23 minutes plays in a sheltered role. Rielly needs to do that too. Who’s taking the tough match-ups, the 3rd pair?

Defensively our team has been fine in the playoffs, we can't score and last year we had a bunch of low IQ and no skill D, it'd be nice to get some puck movement on the backend.

I don't know what the obsession is with getting better defensively when we don't have that issue, it is insane.

The defence core has been mediocre to bad. We have been decent defensively because of our centres.

We definitely do need to improve the offence from our blueline, but not at the expense of defence… because both aspects need to improve.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Staple him to the third line and second PP unit. Make life uncomfortable. Bring his numbers down.

 

[notbias]

Staple him to the third line and second PP unit. Make life uncomfortable. Bring his numbers down.

Perfect plan, GMs will only look at point totals and nothing else.

I am sure this will go over well in the lockerroom too... make your team worse out of spite.