What probability do you feel Ovechkin has to catch Gretzky now?

[tread102]

Why hasn’t anyone scored at Ovechkin’s pace in his era? Same reason why - they were the best in their respective eras.

take out Ovi’s 65 goal season it’s more of an outlier . More than a few hit 50 and stamkos hit 60. Ovi has been consistent, but to out score his peers like Gretzky did he would’ve needed to put up 65 4-5 seasons it just didn’t happen

 

[The Panther]

If we’re going to bring up Mario, then Bossy is the best of all time based on imaginary scenarios where they both got to play their entire careers.

How could that be the case when Bossy was destroyed by Gretzky in goal-scoring head-to-head?

Bossy was 30 when he stopped playing, and he was way below Wayne/Mario's goals pace in 1986-87, so he wasn't doing anything very special that season. In 1987-88, he'd have been past his prime, with Mario scoring 70. The next year, Mario scored 85. Then Hull scored 71, 86, 72. If Bossy were even still able to play at that point, he's old and done.

Bossy led the League in goals twice, even if he had a longer career.

 

[tread102]

Because Gretzky was better than his peers over the course of his career. Just like Ovechkin was.

The difference is that due to the scoring environment, Gretzky and his peers were all scoring 20-30% more than Ovechkin and his peers were.

gretzky has no peers when it came to scoring. Mario came close. But only Mario and Gretzky had 160 point seasons. Gretzky dominated his peers like no player ever has. He was winning scoring races by 50 points

 

[The Panther]

gretzky has no peers when it came to scoring. Mario came close. But only Mario and Gretzky had 160 point seasons. Gretzky dominated his peers like no player ever has. He was winning scoring races by 50 points

Actually, he won one by 79 points and it would have been around 94 if he hasn't been injured that season.

 

[thegoldenyear]

...Bossy was 30 when he stopped playing, and he was way below Wayne/Mario's goals pace in 1986-87, so he wasn't doing anything very special that season.

Panther, I dig your posts over on the HOH board at least partly because 99’s my second-favourite player and you’ve always got his back in a spectacular, detail-driven fashion that I enjoy, but I’ve seen before you have a bit of a blind spot re: Bossy.

Just a friendly FYI that after playing two pain-filled games to start ‘86-‘87, he took two weeks off before playing a 39-game stretch at 29-27-56, basically yet another 60-goal clip, which extrapolated over 80 would’ve kept him in the hunt ‘til the end. It’s pretty well established even that clip was done under the sort of duress your favourite - and my second-favourite - laboured under post-Suter. He was pretty much shot after that. Still managed to log 9-10-19 in his final 22, after another two-week break, but he was a whisper of his game-ready self.

I can no longer raise a powerful argument for Bossy as the GOAT goal-scorer, but he’s also slammed on this site more than any other top-six or top-eight shooter, especially by gens who never saw him play (I know you’ve been watching intently and intelligently since ‘86). Just wanted to clarify that he was remarkably consistent, right up until he couldn’t tie his own skates. He was still a 60-goal “possible” even in ‘86-87, I think. But you know, bad backs and all that.

Cheers.

 

[tread102]

Actually, he won one by 79 points and it would have been around 94 if he hasn't been injured that season.

Well people act like gretzky was putting up 200 points and his peers were putting up 170-180 Points. He had no peers outside of Mario. Ovi isn’t even considered the greatest of his generation by most experts.

 

[Chips]

Shit coach was one of the best pure passers ever and figured ovie on his off wing would have better angles which is true it just didn't work also that was the year ovie made the Allstar team at both wings

edit: I agree about the goal totals with relation to thread. I got caught up on my dislike of Oates lol. Point removed. I still think Ovi is the best goal scorer


It didn’t work the second year, and most of Ovechkins goals the other year were 1.powerplay goals 2.goal on which he was “officially” right wing, but routinely ventured to the left side

they did a goal breakdown either that season or the offseason after, a big number of those “right winger” goals were on the left when he’d routinely venture over. Arguably Ovi just had down years before (Hunter is obvious, but late B B tried to go defensive too) Oates’ powerplays was pretty much the single great thing he gave us and did help Ovi score more.

the coach was shit mostly for everything else tho. They sucked his second year, arguably went on hot streak his first year in a short season, a bit lucky the first.

he also made player tweak random shit like their stick/equipment and interferes with Holtby’s goaltending style, which did not work so well.

he missed the playoffs second year, left and the team began to repair.


Great player. Great assistant coach, not so great head coach.

 

[filinski77]

gretzky has no peers when it came to scoring. Mario came close. But only Mario and Gretzky had 160 point seasons. Gretzky dominated his peers like no player ever has. He was winning scoring races by 50 points

Too bad this discussion is solely about goal scoring. Of course Gretzky is on a whole different planet offensively overall.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

take out Ovi’s 65 goal season it’s more of an outlier . More than a few hit 50 and stamkos hit 60. Ovi has been consistent, but to out score his peers like Gretzky did he would’ve needed to put up 65 4-5 seasons it just didn’t happen

Since 2011-2012, only two NHL players have hit 50 goals: Ovechkin and Draisaitl. Draisaitl did it once, Ovechkin did it 4 times.

He did stand out quite a bit, at times winning the Rocket by almost 10 goals.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

How could that be the case when Bossy was destroyed by Gretzky in goal-scoring head-to-head?

Bossy was 30 when he stopped playing, and he was way below Wayne/Mario's goals pace in 1986-87, so he wasn't doing anything very special that season. In 1987-88, he'd have been past his prime, with Mario scoring 70. The next year, Mario scored 85. Then Hull scored 71, 86, 72. If Bossy were even still able to play at that point, he's old and done.

Bossy led the League in goals twice, even if he had a longer career.

I was trying to make a point based on the fact that Bossy is the all-time leader in GPG. Obviously Gretzky is a better goalscorer, and this logic cannot be applied to claim that Mario is the best either.

 

[Seanaconda]

Panther, I dig your posts over on the HOH board at least partly because 99’s my second-favourite player and you’ve always got his back in a spectacular, detail-driven fashion that I enjoy, but I’ve seen before you have a bit of a blind spot re: Bossy.

Just a friendly FYI that after playing two pain-filled games to start ‘86-‘87, he took two weeks off before playing a 39-game stretch at 29-27-56, basically yet another 60-goal clip, which extrapolated over 80 would’ve kept him in the hunt ‘til the end. It’s pretty well established even that clip was done under the sort of duress your favourite - and my second-favourite - laboured under post-Suter. He was pretty much shot after that. Still managed to log 9-10-19 in his final 22, after another two-week break, but he was a whisper of his game-ready self.

I can no longer raise a powerful argument for Bossy as the GOAT goal-scorer, but he’s also slammed on this site more than any other top-six or top-eight shooter, especially by gens who never saw him play (I know you’ve been watching intently and intelligently since ‘86). Just wanted to clarify that he was remarkably consistent, right up until he couldn’t tie his own skates. He was still a 60-goal “possible” even in ‘86-87, I think. But you know, bad backs and all that.

Cheers.

Gretzky outscored him by a large margin every time they played. Lemiuex also couldn't tie his own scates and still dominated

 

[BM14]

No he doesn’t. Ovi didn’t play in an era where goaltenders were Swiss cheese and could be scored on from the blue line without a screen.

Gretzky didn't play in an era where his soaking wet blue long sleeve undershirt weighed the same as the top half of today's equipment, let alone the stick and skate technology. Knife cuts both ways, bud.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Gretzky didn't play in an era where his soaking wet blue long sleeve undershirt weighed the same as the top half of today's equipment, let alone the stick and skate technology. Knife cuts both ways, bud.

The change in player equipment had a minimal impact. The introduction of composite sticks didn't suddenly allow everyone to become Brett Hull.

While Gretzky had slightly heavier equipment, so did the defensemen playing against him every night. The only major change to the league was the introduction of modern goaltending technique & equipment.

 

[BM14]

The change in player equipment had a minimal impact. The introduction of composite sticks didn't suddenly allow everyone to become Brett Hull.

While Gretzky had slightly heavier equipment, so did the defensemen playing against him every night. The only major change to the league was the introduction of modern goaltending technique & equipment.

Slightly. Interesting. You ever sake around in a wet cotton shirt and socks for an hour? Ever have a pair of CCM Tacks from the 80's? 1 skate weighs more than my skates now.

 

[Big Phil]

Don't think you'll find anyone arguing about the overall games of the players you mentioned. When it comes to purely putting the puck in the net, IMO it's OV 1st, Bossy 2nd, and lots of candidates for 3.

I'd have picked Bossy prior to Ovechkin for sure as that "pure goal scoring" guy.

You find it impressive that centers who touch the puck more often have more assist totals than wingers?

No, I find it impressive that these same centres lead the NHL in goals and assists and their assist total actually seems more impressive than the goals total, despite the goals total being incredible as well.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Slightly. Interesting. You ever sake around in a wet cotton shirt and socks for an hour? Ever have a pair of CCM Tacks from the 80's? 1 skate weighs more than my skates now.

Sure they were heavy, but everyone wore the same skates so no one was at a disadvantage from that point of view. The only thing that cannot be compensated for is the difference in goaltending equipment.

If you think players' equipment from the 80s was heavy, then how heavy were those goalie pads once they soaked up all the snow on the ice?

 

[BM14]

Sure they were heavy, but everyone wore the same skates so no one was at a disadvantage from that point of view. The only thing that cannot be compensated for is the difference in goaltending equipment.

If you think players' equipment from the 80s was heavy, then how heavy were those goalie pads once they soaked up all the snow on the ice?

Yea, that's the only difference. The goalies. You got it. Close 'er up. Today's players definitely could skate and shoot with that equipment.

 

[filinski77]

take out Ovi’s 65 goal season it’s more of an outlier . More than a few hit 50 and stamkos hit 60. Ovi has been consistent, but to out score his peers like Gretzky did he would’ve needed to put up 65 4-5 seasons it just didn’t happen

When you look at both players first 15 seasons in the league:

	Ovi	Gretzky
Top 5 biggest goal totals	2	2
Top 10 biggest goal totals	4	4
Top 20 biggest goal totals	8	4
Other	11 of top 32	6 of top 44

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ovi and Gretzky both had 2/5 and 4/10 of the highest goal totals in a single season throughout their 15 first years. The only difference is that Ovi starts to double him up after that. 8 of the 20 highest goal totals throughout his first 15 years is ridiculous. That number would likely been 9/20 if the 2012/2013 season wasn't a half lockout.

 

[The Panther]

Panther, I dig your posts over on the HOH board at least partly because 99’s my second-favourite player and you’ve always got his back in a spectacular, detail-driven fashion that I enjoy, but I’ve seen before you have a bit of a blind spot re: Bossy.

Just a friendly FYI that after playing two pain-filled games to start ‘86-‘87, he took two weeks off before playing a 39-game stretch at 29-27-56, basically yet another 60-goal clip, which extrapolated over 80 would’ve kept him in the hunt ‘til the end. It’s pretty well established even that clip was done under the sort of duress your favourite - and my second-favourite - laboured under post-Suter. He was pretty much shot after that. Still managed to log 9-10-19 in his final 22, after another two-week break, but he was a whisper of his game-ready self.

I can no longer raise a powerful argument for Bossy as the GOAT goal-scorer, but he’s also slammed on this site more than any other top-six or top-eight shooter, especially by gens who never saw him play (I know you’ve been watching intently and intelligently since ‘86). Just wanted to clarify that he was remarkably consistent, right up until he couldn’t tie his own skates. He was still a 60-goal “possible” even in ‘86-87, I think. But you know, bad backs and all that.

Cheers.

I didn't know I had a blind spot towards Bossy! I actually think Bossy was really great, and I agree he is slammed on this site far more than he should be. Great all around player, great passer, too. So consistent. And, obviously, one of the greatest pure shooter / scorers, ever.

Your take on 1986-87 is appreciated. I did not know that Boss scored 29 goals in 39 games that last season -- still remarkable!

(My point was just that it was very unlikely -- aged 30+ and with the Isles entering a decline -- that Bossy would have added anything big to his resume after 1987, except, of course, volume of goals!)

 

[filinski77]

Gretzky didn't play in an era where his soaking wet blue long sleeve undershirt weighed the same as the top half of today's equipment, let alone the stick and skate technology. Knife cuts both ways, bud.

There are hundreds of variables that can be considered when determining how easy/hard it was to score goals. Yes there are advantages now that players didn't have back then, but if you look at league averages scoring (which encompasses ALL of those changes), you can clearly see that the disadvantages from the last 20 years heavily outweigh the advantages.

 

[thegoldenyear]

Gretzky outscored him by a large margin every time they played. Lemiuex also couldn't tie his own scates and still dominated

I’d hope they both would. They’re the two most dominant PPG guys by country miles.

Actually, Bossy fares pretty well against Gretzky H2H in their eight-year overlap:

Regular season (1979-80 through 1986-87):
Bossy v EDM: 25 GP 23-16-39
Gretzky v NYI: 25 GP 18-36-54

Three playoff series (1981, 1983, 1984):
Bossy v EDM: 14 GP 6-12-18
Gretzky v NYI: 15 GP 8-13-21

This is all off-topic, and I’m not even trying to place Bossy above Gretzky in goal-scoring, but I am defending his place in the upper echelon.

Sorry for the detour, thread!

 

[thegoldenyear]

I didn't know I had a blind spot towards Bossy! I actually think Bossy was really great, and I agree he is slammed on this site far more than he should be. Great all around player, great passer, too. So consistent. And, obviously, one of the greatest pure shooter / scorers, ever.

Your take on 1986-87 is appreciated. I did not know that Boss scored 29 goals in 39 games that last season -- still remarkable!

(My point was just that it was very unlikely -- aged 30+ and with the Isles entering a decline -- that Bossy would have added anything big to his resume after 1987, except, of course, volume of goals!)

It's only (vaguely) noticeable because I enjoy your takes and also have a particular interest in all things Isles, but the HOH lacks an Islanders champion as it is, so I'm accustomed to swallowing my pride and reading on. (Now I feel a little guilty: I assure you it was just the timing of this thread and nothin' personal!)

My fondest fan fiction's always been the rumour of McNall/Vachon reaching out to Lacroix/Bossy in '88 about him giving the pre-Kurri Gretzky Kings a try actually coming true. (It's not lost on me that my two favourite players - and two noted pacifists, to boot - were not friendly in the least.)

Agreed, though: counting stats was otherwise all he had left by 1987. Even an alternate-universe healthy Boss, nudging 55-60 in '86-87 and enjoying the free-flowing league offense of the next two seasons (he'd always maintained he wanted a 12-year career) probably ends the '80s with no more than 700 goals, and on a poor team. Unless he had a change of heart and joined hometown Montreal, pre-Cup Pitt (his brother-in-law Pierre Creamer coached the '87-'88 Pens) or someone else needing a 30-goals-or-better stick, he's not winning a third Retro Rocket.

(FWIW, although WG pastes him in goals for their age 21-24 seasons, Boss hangs tough in the age 25-30 range, even under the hammer of the nefarious "adjusted" goals. WG was sort of goal-avoidant in his assists-obsessed age-25 and dinged up in his age-27, so that's got to be considered. But I found it curious. Their actual output in '85-'86/'86-'87 is even fairly close, as Wayne dips to merely being outstanding [while still piling up astonishing assist totals].)

 

[HurricaneFanatic]

Is this thread aging well? He's got a goal today.

 

[PaulD]

I never thought he would catch him.
Still don't.

 

[PaulD]

Yeah, sub-20% now.

It's sad how we were robbed of two seasons of Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin.

Lock outs and strikes have done in other eras too. With Gretzky and Mario. It is too bad.
Never happened untill Betman arrived